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Who is Jesus? The Identity of Jesus Father (Marduk / Yahweh)

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
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" I AM " was not a first personal pronoun ..... I AM is the name of God when Moses asked God His name God replied to Moses " I AM that I AM "

so all that Jesus said was before abraham was God - before abraham existed God existed . he said this after telling the Jews that they did not know God but He did know God ( didnt say He was God then ,or ever )

All you are doing is repeating your own unsupported opinion and whatever you have been taught by your denominational leaders. "I am" is most certainly the first person personal pronoun. See my post immediately above the one quoted here, which I quoted from the Jewish Encyclopedia. The Jews knew that "I am" was the first person personal pronoun but they also knew that God used that to identify Himself in Exo 3:14. And that is why they were so enraged when Jesus said "I am." I'm sure you fervently believe what you are saying but you provide no evidence but I have provided such evidence.
 
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jenny1972

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so Jesus said " before abraham existed , God " after a discussion with the Jews that involved Him telling them that they did not know God and He did know God . their father was abraham but His Father was God . Jesus didnt say " before abraham existed I existed " did not say " I AM " is me and so i existed before abraham

neither did Jesus call Himself " I AM " any other time did He?
 
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jenny1972

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Wrong as usual. The word Trinity was first used in 180 AD by Theophilus and was used by other early church fathers long before the 300 year mark. While he did not use the word trinity, Justin Martyr in the latter part of the first century spoke of the person of God, the person of the Son and the person of the Holy Spirit.

it was still a foreign concept to Jesus apparently since he didnt suggest it or speak of it and only referred to God His Father (and our Father too He said) as ONE , if He was apart of such an arrangement with God then He wouldve spoken about it during His lifetime dont you think ? trinity concept wouldnt have been non existent until 100-150 years after His death it wouldve been taught as Truth during Jesus' lifetime
 
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DrBubbaLove

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so Jesus said " before abraham existed , God " after a discussion with the Jews that involved Him telling them that they did not know God and He did know God . their father was abraham but His Father was God . Jesus didnt say " before abraham existed I existed " did not say " I AM " is me and so i existed before abraham

neither did Jesus call Himself " I AM " any other time did He?
Again, and you never addressed the question, why would people who naturally believed God existed before Abraham existed, why would they be moved to murder someone claimed to be understood as just expressing that?
The story makes no sense if we render the meaning that way. You can say yeah, they were already looking for any excuse for getting rid of Him. But how could the story be understood as saying His proclaiming God existed before Abraham gave them any excuse?

Are you really suggesting that if He had instead said "apples are not figs" that they would likewise have responded with murderous outrage?????
 
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jenny1972

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Again, and you never addressed the question, why would people who naturally believed God existed before Abraham existed be moved to murder someone claimed to be understood as just expressing that?
The story makes no sense if we render the meaning that way. You can say yeah, they were already looking for any excuse for getting rid of Him. But how could the story be understood as saying His proclaiming God existed before Abraham gave them any excuse?

Are you really suggesting that if He had instead said "apples are not figs" that they would likewise have responded with murderous outrage?????

yes they misunderstood Jesus and assumed that Jesus was saying that he was I AM (God) even though he always made a distinction between Himself and God and even did in His conversation with them moments before refer to Himself as separate from God . ( my God not yours )
 
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Wgw

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Paul and Mark and Matthew and John and Luke are all separate people who did separate things . one can be in error without the others also being in error . modern Christianity is a result of all of them together but each of them were separate men who had separate jobs . any that contradicted Jesus or contradicted the Old Testament ( Jesus didnt ) saying God was not ONE but instead 3 and other wrong teachings is responsible for his own actions.

On the contrary, they were all members of one Church, and they routinely criticized each other when errors were made. The fact that St. Paul is not only not croticzed but is rather supported by the synoptic Gospels and St. John in particular, has the effect of validating his position.

Your error regarding the Divinity of our Lord furthermore is entirely refuted by the Gospel of John; indeed, John 1:1-14 directly refutes it.
 
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Wgw

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yes they misunderstood Jesus and assumed that Jesus was saying that he was I AM (God) even though he always made a distinction between Himself and God and even did in His conversation with them moments before refer to Himself as separate from God . ( my God not yours )

John 10:30 and 17:21
 
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DrBubbaLove

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yes they misunderstood Jesus and assumed that Jesus was saying that he was I AM (God) even though he always made a distinction between Himself and God and even did in His conversation with them moments before refer to Himself as separate from God . ( my God not yours )
Ahhh, now we get down to it. Unless we follow this teaching about why Jesus said what He said we are not really Christians. Interesting tactic and expression of charity - or am I just assuming that was what "my God not yours" means?
And no I don't wish to stone anyone, but rather think it sad that anyone thinks their view trumps the Christianity of anyone opposed.

BTW, do you happen to have other verses where Jesus would intentionally speak in a very deceptive manner precisely and intentional to enrage another human to murder?
Are there other instances where you claim He says or does something intentionally to incite people to sin gravely?
Interesting concept of how a perfect sinless man should give example for us to follow. So where did He say "do as I say not as I do"?
And if we learned the man in Texas whose child was murdered had intentionally incited the other driver to murder (fire shots at the father's truck in rage) does this rendering of the "I am" story mean we can excuse the father's behavior because Jesus did the same thing?
 
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jenny1972

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You're quoting from the Gospel of John, the non-synoptic gospel written nearly a century after his death (earliest possible is 60+ years later), in which he has been assigned magical abilities and divine nature not found in the earlier gospels.

And I am not remotely the first person to note that Jesus takes on Buddha-like qualities in the descriptions of his "divine nature"... the whole Trinitarian "Jesus = God" thing came later in church history; even though the view is almost ubiquitous, now, it was not always so. You're looking at it through rose-colored glasses.

If you'll take the glasses off and really LOOK, it's obvious that the writer of John is bridging the gap between the earlier, "mystical teacher of the path to enlightenment" (The Way) version of Jesus and the later, "I Am" version of Jesus-as-God.
 
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jenny1972

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If Jesus was in fact the son of God how can He be the Messiah ?
If Jesus' real father was GOD and NOT from the seed of David then Jesus cannot be the Messiah because the Messiah of prophesy was promised to be from the family line of David . If Jesus was God and if Jesus' father was actually God then not only did Jesus LIE when he said that he was a descendent of David but he is also NOT the Messiah . he is just a liar and God incarnate .... so which is he ? Jesus detailed an extensive lineage to David beginning with his father

dont you see this is the reason why the Jews cannot accept Jesus as the Messiah because of the claim that his father is God , the Messiah was to be a descendent of David . Jesus has become a descendent of God not David and so cannot be accepted by the Jews as the Messiah .

Jesus said He was " Christ "(meaning Messiah) never did He say He was God or part of God
 
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Wgw

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You're quoting from the Gospel of John, the non-synoptic gospel written nearly a century after his death (earliest possible is 60+ years later), in which he has been assigned magical abilities and divine nature not found in the earlier gospels.

And I am not remotely the first person to note that Jesus takes on Buddha-like qualities in the descriptions of his "divine nature"... the whole Trinitarian "Jesus = God" thing came later in church history; even though the view is almost ubiquitous, now, it was not always so. You're looking at it through rose-colored glasses.

If you'll take the glasses off and really LOOK, it's obvious that the writer of John is bridging the gap between the earlier, "mystical teacher of the path to enlightenment" (The Way) version of Jesus and the later, "I Am" version of Jesus-as-God.

Now we have Alogianism, the rejection of the Gospel of John, a more obscure heresy catalogued by St. Epiphanius of Salamis in Volume 2 of the Panarion.

In modern times this heresy has undergone something of a Renaissance, because people erroneously think that if we discard St. John the rationale for the divinity of Christ is lost. Alas, not. Matthew, Mark and Luke provide ample justification for it. However I consider even attempting to prove the point from the Synoptics would be too much of a concession to Alogianism; it would be akin to refuting Marcion from his own mangled version of the Gospel of Luke,mwhich St. Irenaeus did, and indeed St. Epiphanius refuted Alogianism using the synoptics. However that is why they are saints, and I am not; I would simply direct interested parties to volume 2 of the Panarion and leave it at that.
 
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Wgw

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If Jesus was in fact the son of God how can He be the Messiah ?
If Jesus' real father was GOD and NOT from the seed of David then Jesus cannot be the Messiah because the Messiah of prophesy was promised to be from the family line of David . If Jesus was God and if Jesus' father was actually God then not only did Jesus LIE when he said that he was a descendent of David but he is also NOT the Messiah . he is just a liar and God incarnate .... so which is he ? Jesus detailed an extensive lineage to David beginning with his father

dont you see this is the reason why the Jews cannot accept Jesus as the Messiah because of the claim that his father is God , the Messiah was to be a descendent of David . Jesus has become a descendent of God not David and so cannot be accepted by the Jews as the Messiah .

Jesus said He was " Christ "(meaning Messiah) never did He say He was God or part of God

The Christological confusion here seems to be a failure to understand the concept of the human nature of Jesus Christ. It is true, the Lord would not be descended from David if He had only a divine nature, however, the incarnation requires us to recognize the existence of a human nature as a vital component.
 
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toLiJC

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We are told that if we seek, we will find. My trouble, as a believer, is the fact that all roads lead to perceived deception. My primary concern is that Yahweh sheds blood, desires to be worshiped and acts very arrogant. Compared with the words of Jesus, we have trouble if we do not fully investigate this matter. They cannot be one in the same God. Something is not right here.

the difference consists in the fact that satan (had) had inner/domestic power during the time/era before the New Testament whereby it was able to manifest/act like a part of God, including like a part of Jehovah, that is why there had been more or less inimical commandments such as "an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth", "stone the harlot to death", "judge the adulteress before the priest who should curse her with bitter water", "let him be cursed who does not confirm all the words of this law to do them and let all the people say amen", etc., but God and Jesus have destroyed all the inner/domestic power of satan and thus all the inimical part of the law

Matthew 5:38- "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil(i.e. do not render evil for evil to any human): but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also(i.e. but if any person treats you badly, treat it well)...",

John 12:31-32 "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out(i.e. now the whole inner/domestic power of the devil will permanently be destroyed). And I, if(i.e. and when) I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.",

John 14:30 "Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world(i.e. the wicked) cometh, and hath nothing in me.",

Matthew 27:50-56 "Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom(i.e. all the imperfect/inimical part of the ordinances in the God's covenant/testament have completely been annulled); and the earth did quake(i.e. and the powers did shake), and the rocks rent(i.e. and the whole inner/domestic power of satan has permanently been removed/destroyed); And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many(note: because when the devil had that power in the Heaven, therewith it was able to hold their bodies unresurrected in the graves). Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God. And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him: Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's children.",

Colossians 2:14-15 "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances(i.e. annulling the satanic part of the ordinances in the God's covenant/testament) that was against us(i.e. which was prejudicial to the people), which was contrary to us(i.e. which was adverse to us), and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers(i.e. and having denounced the unrighteous spiritual/religious systems and powers), he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it."

Blessings
 
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jenny1972

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It is true, the Lord would not be descended from David if He had only a divine nature, however, the incarnation requires us to recognize the existence of a human nature as a vital component.

so you are saying that Jesus was not prophesy fulfilled promised by God to be the descendent of David to the jews ? if so why did Jesus go to the trouble of detailing His lineage leading back to David if it was a deception ?
 
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Wgw

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so you are saying that Jesus was not prophesy fulfilled promised by God to be the descendent of David to the jews ? if so why did Jesus go to the trouble of detailing His lineage leading back to David if it was a deception ?

The lineage of our Lord to David is that of His human nature; in hereditary biological terms his ancestors would be the same as those of Mary. The fact that our Lord is the Son of God, very God of very God, begotten of the Father before all ages, is pf His divine nature. Jesus Christ is one Person, one hypostasis, fully human and fully divine, from or in the human and divine natures, with human and divine wills, and human and divine energy.

So the prophecy of our Lord is not a deception in any sense. Nor are the portions of the Four Gospels that attest to his divinity and essential unity with the Father and the Holy Spirit.
 
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jenny1972

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The Christological confusion here seems to be a failure to understand the concept of the human nature of Jesus Christ. It is true, the Lord would not be descended from David if He had only a divine nature, however, the incarnation requires us to recognize the existence of a human nature as a vital component.

no modern Christian teaching is that Mary was not pregnant with the seed of David but instead God ... Jesus claimed and detailed a lineage to David ( is jewish lineage determined on the fathers side or on the mothers side?) and Jesus also said that He was the Messiah " Christ" a position according to the scriptures of the Old Testament can only be filled by the descendent of David ( which according to modern christians Jesus was not and instead the descendent of God )
 
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Wgw

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no modern Christian teaching is that Mary was not pregnant with the seed of David but instead God ... Jesus claimed and detailed a lineage to David ( is jewish lineage determined on the fathers side or on the mothers side?) and Jesus also said that He was the Messiah " Christ" a position according to the scriptures of the Old Testament can only be filled by the descendent of David ( which according to modern christians Jesus was not and instead the descendent of God )

The teaching of the Church since St. Paul is that Mary conceived without sexual intercourse...are you saying that you reject the Virgin Birth? Because Matthew and Luke, which are the source of the lineages you testify, both affirm this doctrine; their lineages, which are by the way contradictory, although there are explanations for that relating to Jewish matrilineality, cannot be regarded as reliable if they are in error on the Virgin Birth.

Now modern Christianity, by which I assume you mean the theological consensus of the early Church as still taught by Orthodox, Catholics and most Protestants, does not teach that Jesus Christ is exclusively the Son of God and not the Son of Man. That would be a gross error, unscriptural, unorthodox; it is the heresy of Docetism or Gnosticism, or in a more watered down sense, the heresy of Apollinarius and Eutyches (the idea that the human nature is replaced, dissolved, coopted, subjugated by or superceded by the Divine nature).

You are essentially rejecting Nicene orthodoxy because you fail to understand what the majority of Christians since the first century actually believe. The descent of our Lord from David is accepted and integral, as is His status as the Son of God. The humanity and divinity are not mutually exclusive; rather their synergy is the essential basis for our salvation.
 
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jenny1972

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The teaching of the Church since St. Paul is that Mary conceived without sexual intercourse...are you saying that you reject the Virgin Birth? Because Matthew and Luke, which are the source of the lineages you testify, both affirm this doctrine; their lineages, which are by the way contradictory, although there are explanations for that relating to Jewish matrilineality, cannot be regarded as reliable if they are in error on the Virgin Birth.

Now modern Christianity, by which I assume you mean the theological consensus of the early Church as still taught by Orthodox, Catholics and most Protestants, does not teach that Jesus Christ is exclusively the Son of God and not the Son of Man. That would be a gross error, unscriptural, unorthodox; it is the heresy of Docetism or Gnosticism, or in a more watered down sense, the heresy of Apollinarius and Eutyches (the idea that the human nature is replaced, dissolved, coopted, subjugated by or superceded by the Divine nature).

You are essentially rejecting Nicene orthodoxy because you fail to understand what the majority of Christians since the first century actually believe. The descent of our Lord from David is accepted and integral, as is His status as the Son of God. The humanity and divinity are not mutually exclusive; rather their synergy is the essential basis for our salvation.

im saying that according to scripture , according to Gods Word , the Messiah has a lineage and a relation to David , as Jesus detailed and asserted to all that He had a lineage to David . if in fact Christ did not have a lineage to David how can He be the Messiah ? if Jesus' father was not related to David but instead was God why did Jesus lie and say that His lineage went back to David? and how can He be the Messiah and prophesy fulfilled ?
 
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Wgw

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im saying that the Messiah has a lineage and a relation to David , as Jesus detailed and asserted to all that He had a lineage to David . if in fact Christ did not have a lineage to David how can He be the Messiah ? if Jesus' father was not related to David but instead was God why did Jesus lie and say that His lineage went back to David? and how can He be the Messiah and prophesy fulfilled ?

Because human beings do not reproduce through asexual division of the father. Seriously. Our Lord's human lineage to David is through St. Mary.
 
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jenny1972

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Because human beings do not reproduce through asexual division of the father. Seriously. Our Lord's human lineage to David is through St. Mary.

do not the Jewish people determine lineage through their paternal ancestery not maternal?
 
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