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Buddhism: Neither Theistic nor Atheistic

Yoder777

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I think the evidence for the resurrection is compelling. Something surely happened to change the apostles.

I tried Shin, and I still admire it, but I find Christianity more compelling.

I am sorry to say this, but Jesus was one of many crucified Jews in the first-century whose followers believed to be the Messiah, and one of many figures in the ancient Roman world believed to have been risen from the dead:

http://pocm.info/pagan_ideas_raised_from_the_dead.html

The things you've shared so far in this thread suggest to me that your knowledge of Shin Buddhism is rather limited. What books on Shin Buddhist teachings have you actually read? Who is your sensei and have you discussed your concerns with him?

I am not trying to convert you one way or another, but you at least should make an informed decision.
 
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smaneck

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If Amida Buddha is the eternal Buddha who manifested as Shakyamuni and is the potential Buddhahood within all people, if Amida Buddha is the personification of Nirvana itself, then Amida Buddha is neither historical nor unhistorical: Amida Buddha is trans-historical.

I think we're getting somewhere. :D
 
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nightflight

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The things you've shared so far in this thread suggest to me that your knowledge of Shin Buddhism is rather limited. What books on Shin Buddhist teachings have you actually read? Who is your sensei and have you discussed your concerns with him?

So I'm not doin' it right, huh?

Have you experienced Shinjin, Yoder?

I am not trying to convert you one way or another, but you at least should make an informed decision.

I tried Shin; it didn't do it for me. Maybe its because my knowledge of it is limited, but its as least as much as the everyday people that Shinran encountered.

As for my reading list,
River of Fire, River of Water- Teitetsu Unno
Shin Buddhism- Teitetsu Unno
Buddhism of the Heart- Jeff Wilson
Tariki- Hiroyuki Itsuki
Buddha of Infinite Light- Daisetz Suzuki
Naturalness- Kenro Kanamatsu
Ocean- Ken Tanaka
Tannisho- Teitetsu Unno translation
Call of the Infinite- John Paraskavopolous
Heart of the Shin Buddhist Path- Takamaro Shigaraki
The Essential Shinran- Al Bloom
 
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Yoder777

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So I'm not doin' it right, huh?

No, and neither am I. The whole idea of trusting in Amida Buddha is that he does the work for us, including giving us faith. This may sound like an evangelical Christian idea, but Shinran wrote it three hundred years before Martin Luther, and based it on ancient Mahayana sutras.

How many Christians tried to tell me that I will go to hell because of being a Jodo Shinshu Buddhist! Of course that such attempts to frighten me failed not because I posses some special powers, but because my faith (shinjin) is not my creation. It is not by accident that in Jodo Shinshu we often meet the expression “diamond like shinjin”. That which gives power to our faith is its origin – the Heart and Mind of Amida Buddha. This
is why Jodo Shinshu followers can’t be influenced by those who follow nonbuddhist paths.
We may also say that the protection of the Buddhas means that since the moment we receive shinjin, we safely go into the direction of Buddhahood. All Buddhas are witnesses of this truth and praise the wonderful salvation work of Amida.
http://amida-ji-retreat-temple-roma...12/ten-benefits-in-this-life-of-nembutsu.html

I must ask again, who is your sensei and have you discussed your concerns with him? This is an important matter, and is between you and your sensei to resolve. The third part of the triple gem is taking refuge in the sangha. If you never joined a sangha, were you ever truly a Buddhist?
 
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Yoder777

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There is a fundamental doctrine of Buddhism that, if true, is incompatible with traditional Christianity, and that is the doctrine of reincarnation or rebirth. Of all views on the afterlife, reincarnation is the most well researched and well documented. While there may be alternative ways of explaining the evidence, one cannot deny that the evidence is there.

Psychiatrist Ian Stevenson, from the University of Virginia, is an authority in scientific research on reincarnation. He investigated many reports of young children who claimed to remember a past life. He conducted more than 2500 case studies over a period of 40 years and published 12 books, including Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation and Where Reincarnation and Biology Intersect. Stevenson methodically documented each child's statements and then identified the deceased person the child identified with, and verified the facts of the deceased person's life that matched the child's memory. He also matched birthmarks and birth defects to wounds and scars on the deceased, verified by medical records such as autopsy photographs, in Reincarnation and Biology.[38]

Stevenson searched for disconfirming evidence and alternative explanations for the reports, and believed that his strict methods ruled out all possible “normal” explanations for the child's memories. However, a significant majority of Stevenson's reported cases of reincarnation originated in Eastern societies, where dominant religions often permit the concept of reincarnation. Following this type of criticism, Stevenson published a book on European Cases of the Reincarnation Type. Other people who have undertaken reincarnation research include Jim B. Tucker, Brian Weiss, and Raymond Moody.[39]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3705678/

This is a documentary on documented cases of reincarnation:

Buddhism, of all religions, has the most logical explanation for reincarnation:

At the death of one personality, a new one comes into being, much as the flame of a dying candle can serve to light the flame of another.[122][123] The consciousness in the new person is neither identical to nor entirely different from that in the deceased but the two form a causal continuum or stream. Transmigration is the effect of karma (kamma)[124][125] or volitional action.[126] The basic cause is the abiding of consciousness in ignorance (Pali: avijja, Sanskrit: avidya): when ignorance is uprooted, rebirth ceases.[127]
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Reincarnation#Buddhism

In Buddhism, faith isn't blind belief. Faith is rooted in evidence, reasoning, and personal experience.
 
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nightflight

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No, and neither am I. The whole idea of trusting in Amida Buddha is that he does the work for us, including giving us faith. This may sound like an evangelical Christian idea, but Shinran wrote it three hundred years before Martin Luther, and based it on ancient Mahayana sutras.

I cannot believe in a literal Amida.

I must ask again, who is your sensei and have you discussed your concerns with him? This is an important matter, and is between you and your sensei to resolve. The third part of the triple gem is taking refuge in the sangha. If you never joined a sangha, were you ever truly a Buddhist?

Sounds less and less like a doctrine of grace. I have to join a sangha? I have no sensei; there are no Shin temples in my town. Are you really saying all the Shin Buddhists in Japan are members of sanghas?
 
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Yoder777

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I cannot believe in a literal Amida.



Sounds less and less like a doctrine of grace. I have to join a sangha? I have no sensei; there are no Shin temples in my town. Are you really saying all the Shin Buddhists in Japan are members of sanghas?

A sangha, in modern language, refers to any Buddhist congregation, not just a monastery. It can even be one formed through Meetup.com. Since Shin Buddhism is the largest sect of Buddhism in Japan, then Shin Buddhists most certainly belong to sanghas. Are you familiar with the reasons why Buddha stressed the importance of belonging to a community of believers?

You'd probably be better informed if you weren't trying to learn Buddhism on your own. You'd still be encouraged to ultimately think and decide for yourself, but you'd at least have better information to make a decision.

Again and again, I have explained to you the meaning of Amida Buddha and entrusting in him, and again and again you evade the issue. Will you not even listen to Shinran himself, and yet you claim to have been a Shin Buddhist??? -
As the essential purport of the Vow, [Amida] vowed to bring us all to become supreme Buddha. Supreme Buddha is formless, and because of being formless is called jinen. Buddha, when appearing with form, is not called supreme nirvana. In order to make it known that supreme Buddha is formless, the name Amida Buddha is expressly used; so I have been taught. Amida Buddha fulfills the purpose of making us know the significance of jinen.
http://shinranworks.com/letters/lamp-for-the-latter-ages/5-2/

Here we see Shinran explaining that Amida Buddha is the personification of Nirvana, the eternal Buddha, and it is in the eternal Buddha to whom we give our faith, and this faith itself is a gift from the eternal Buddha. If you don't believe in the eternal Buddha, you are not a Buddhist.

What Shin Buddhist texts have you actually read? You can't just read some Wikipedia articles, never belong to an actual temple, and then claim that Shin Buddhism just didn't work for you.

Please keep in mind that I am not trying to convert you one way or another. It just appears to me that you are not making an informed decision, and it's a responsibility that you owe to yourself if you are a real truth seeker.
 
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Yoder777

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I've always wondered why Buddhism even had reincarnation. If there is no permanent self, what is there to be reincarnated?

Buddhism has a uniquely logical way of explaining the phenomenon of karma and rebirth:

The Buddhist concept of reincarnation differs from others in that there is no eternal “soul,” “spirit” or “self” but only a “stream of consciousness” that links life with life. The actual process of change from one life to the next is called punarbhava (Sanskrit) or punabbhava (Pāli), literally “becoming again,” or more briefly bhava, “becoming.” The early Buddhist texts discuss techniques for recalling previous births, predicated on the development of high levels of meditative concentration.[15] Buddha reportedly warned that this experience can be misleading and should be interpreted with care. He taught a distinct concept of rebirth constrained by the concepts of anattā, that there is no irreducible atman or “self” tying these lives together, which serves as a contrast to Hinduism, where everything is connected, and in a sense, “everything is everything.”[16]

In Buddhist doctrine the evolving consciousness (Pali: samvattanika-viññana) or stream of consciousness (Pali: viññana-sotam), upon death (or “the dissolution of the aggregates”) becomes one of the contributing causes for the arising of a new aggregation. At the death of one personality, a new one comes into being, much as the flame of a dying candle can serve to light the flame of another. The consciousness in the new person is neither identical to nor entirely different from that in the deceased but the two form a causal continuum or stream. Transmigration is the effect of karma (Pali: kamma) or volitional action. The basic cause is the abiding of consciousness in ignorance (Pali: Avijja, Sanskrit: Avidya): When ignorance is uprooted rebirth ceases.[17]

Vipassana meditation uses “bare attention” to mind-states without interfering, owning or judging. Observation reveals each moment as an experience of an individual mind-state such as a thought, a memory, a feeling or a perception that arises, exists, and ceases. This limits the power of desire, which, according to the second noble truth of Buddhism, is the cause of suffering (dukkha), and leads to Nirvana (nibbana, vanishing [of the self-idea]) in which self-oriented models are transcended and “the world stops.” Thus consciousness is a continuous birth and death of mind-states: Rebirth is the persistence of this process.[18]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3705678/

Given the documented evidence in favor of reincarnation, why not believe in it? Does Baha'i faith teach against it?

Please keep in mind that I am not trying to convert anyone to Buddhism. I can, however, answer basic questions on what Pure Land Buddhists believe and why.
 
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Yoder777

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Please read the following and tell me if you have any questions:

Who is Shinran?
The principal characteristic of Buddhism is that its goal is the attainment of Buddhahood by each person. The purpose in other religions is faith in god, and the ultimate goal is to be saved by god. Other religions do not talk about god saving man in order to become a god; in fact, such a thought would be blasphemous. Shinran does speak of salvation, of entrusting 'ourselves to the inconceivable power of Amida's vow which saves us' (Tannisho I), but the ultimate aim, as in all forms of Buddhism, is attaining Buddhahood.

Today, however, even among Buddhists, the general feeling is that we believe in Amida Buddha in order to be saved from all kinds of difficulties in life, ranging from serious illnesses to natural calamities. How many people know that even though some Buddhist scriptures talk about faith and entrusting, it is a process of becoming a Buddha? In all likelihood people would say, 'I have no need to become a Buddha; to be human is more than sufficient. But when I face difficulties, I would like to be helped.' It seems that such is the common view of religion; hence Buddhism is also regarded in the same way.

Today, very few think of attaining Buddhahood, because people have no idea of what it means to become a Buddha. As a consequence, Buddhism is generally understood as just another religion, and people flock to the temples to seek some kind of worldly benefit. This seems to be the general situation among Japanese Buddhists, including Shin Buddhists.

But even among such people ignorant of the true purpose of Buddhism, many are strongly attracted to the personality of Shinran. In Japan, Shinran holds great fascination for the general public, including many intellectuals, who have no affiliation with the Shin Buddhist organization. What is the attraction that Shinran has for people? I believe that it is the powerful spirituality that emanates from his being, coming through such words as the Nembutsu and the Primal Vow of Amida. This is what draws people who have lost their religious roots to Shinran.

In brief, the deep spirituality of Shinran's thought comes from the awareness that the Primal Vow of Amida makes us foolish beings, steeped in blind passion, ultimately attain Buddhahood. 'The purpose of the Vow is to make each of us an unexcelled Buddha. The unexcelled Buddha is without form.' (Letters of Shinran) The same point is also expressed in another form: 'It is the intention of the Buddhas that we shall all together go beyond birth and death.' (Tannisho XII) To become an unexcelled Buddha and to go beyond birth and death are the same thing. The person who has transcended samsaric life, gone beyond birth and death, is an unexcelled Buddha; and unless one becomes an unexcelled Buddha, one cannot be said to have transcended birth and death.

Late in his life, Shinran stressed the fact that 'the person of shinjin true and real is equal to Tathagata or Buddha.' He repeatedly makes this point in his letters to the followers in Kanto whom he left behind when he moved to Kyoto. In a letter to his disciple Joshin, Shinran writes, 'The person of shinjin true and real may be in this human body, shallow, impure, and creating evil karma; nevertheless, I want you to know that because his or her mind and heart are equal to that of Tathagata or Buddha, we can talk of a person being equal to Tathagata.' (Letters of Shinran). This letter, written when Shinran was 85 years old, is one of several in which he stresses the fact of being equal to Tathagata.

I have no doubt that, in his latter years, Shinran reached the point where he felt that his mind and heart were equal to Tathagata. Some people may think that to become a Tathagata or Buddha is to transcend all human emotions of happiness and sorrow, but that is incorrect; in fact, to become a Tathagata or Buddha means to become, without regards to other people's opinions or comments, one who is able to truly experience happiness when happy and to truly know sorrow when truly sad. The crucial question is whether or not a person is happy or sad only for oneself, or is happy for the sake of other's happiness and sad for the sake of other's sorrows.

However, it is extremely difficult to make another person's happiness my own, and another person's sorrows my own. In fact, it is impossible for us ordinary human beings. For that to be a possibility, Buddhistically speaking, we must have gone beyond birth-and-death. Or to put it differently, we must no longer place our trust in the conventional values of the world by which people live, as echoed in the Tannisho Epilogue: 'In this foolish being filled with blind passion, living in this impermanent world that is like a burning house, all things are empty and vain; therefore, untrue. Only the nembutsu is true, real, and sincere.' Such is the person who can say with Shinran that 'all beings have been fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters in the timeless process of birth and death.' (Tannisho V)

Shinran teaches us what it means to attain Buddhahood, what living the Buddhist teaching implies, in a very realistic and concrete way. While possessing a defiled mind, filled with blind passion, he had reached the realization of being equal to Tathagata. Thus, he could say that his mind and heart have 'already and always been in the Pure Land' (Letters of Shinran). This is the source of Shinran's fascination for many people.

When seen in worldly terms, Shiman did not lead a happy and comfortable life; in fact, his life was filled with hardships of all kinds: he was orphaned as a child, he was exiled and branded a common criminal at the age of thirty five for espousing the nem-butsu; he had to live apart from his wife Eshinni during the latter years of his ninety year life; he was forced to disown his eldest son when he was eighty four years old; and he died at his brother's home which was but a temporary abode. And yet more than seven-hundred years after his death, he continues to attract and fascinate us. I believe the reason he does so is because of his mind and heart that were 'equal to Tathagata.'

Finally, the mind and heart that are equal to Tathagata thoroughly and completely reveals the profound evil and ugliness hidden within us, a human being, bringing it to light and cleansing it for all time. In the words of Shinran:

Although one returns to the teaching of Pure Land,
Rare, indeed, is a true, real, and sincere mind.
In fact, in this self - empty, vain and untrue
There is no purity of mind.

With an evil mind, like a snake or scorpion,
Impossible is it to perform the good of self power.
Unless we rely on Tathagata's compassionate empowerment,
We are without shame and without repentance. (Shozomatsu wasan, 94, 99)

For us human beings, becoming a Buddha means becoming a person who truly knows what shame is and what repentance means. Shinran was such a person. He taught us how to become truly human, truly loving, and truly understanding.
http://www.nembutsu.info/ueda_shinran.htm

How can you say Shin Buddhism doesn't work for you if you don't even know what it teaches and why?

This article clearly explains why faith in Amida Buddha is preferable to faith in traditional Christianity:
http://web.mit.edu/stclair/www/Faith.html

Regarding your interest in history, here it is:

7. THE HISTORICAL FIGURES
This is a bit tricky to discuss, because the only historical documents we have about Jesus are the Gospels, and those were not written down until several decades after Jesus walked the Earth, according to many scholars. Most of Jesus' direct followers were illiterate...and Jesus' public ministry lasted only 3 years.
Therefore the accounts are questionable, because they could have changed a lot over time by word of mouth.
The Buddha, on the other hand, was surrounded by a cadre of scholarly monks, and had a public ministry for 45 years. Large chunks of His teachings were committed to memory and passed down as such - and were finally written down in pristine form as the Sutras. Therefore the accounts are possibly a lot more reliable than those in the Gospels.
http://web.mit.edu/stclair/www/Faith.html

I encourage you to read the rest of the article if you really want to know why Shin Buddhism might better suit you.
 
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smaneck

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Given the documented evidence in favor of reincarnation, why not believe in it?

If I could remember my past lives I would believe in reincarnation. If I can't, then it wasn't me who lived them. I not going to believe because someone else claims to remember their past lives.

Does Baha'i faith teach against it?

Yes and no. We do not believe that souls return to this plane of existence. Neither do we believe in a static heaven or hell. We believe that when a soul dies they go on to another plane of existence where they hopefully will continue to progress.
 
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Yoder777

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If I could remember my past lives I would believe in reincarnation. If I can't, then it wasn't me who lived them. I not going to believe because someone else claims to remember their past lives.

Are you familiar with the scientific research on reincarnation?
 
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Eudaimonist

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It's how Buddhism is perceived in the West by atheists looking to further their own agenda and by self-help gurus looking to make a quick buck.

There may be some dishonest people out there doing that, but my impression is that most of this is sincere and honest from people who genuinely appreciate the philosophical ideas. You might want to thank them for focusing on what is best in Buddhism.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Yoder777

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There may be some dishonest people out there doing that, but my impression is that most of this is sincere and honest from people who genuinely appreciate the philosophical ideas. You might want to thank them for focusing on what is best in Buddhism.


eudaimonia,

Mark

If you took the Koran and removed anything about Allah, kept only the moral instructions, and insisted that's all modern people need, what would a Muslim think of that? If you took the Gospels and removed anything supernatural, kept only the moral instructions, and insisted that's all modern people need, what would a Christian think of that?
 
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Yoder777

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Anyone who comments on what Buddha taught or what Buddhism teaches, but who has never even heard of Pure Land Buddhism, probably has no real idea of what Buddha taught.

Some schools of Buddhism are very profound and difficult to understand and thus to practice. In the west, the Zen and Tibetan methods have been well accepted but are more difficult to attain achievement in due to the shortage of highly qualified masters and the obstacles practitioners may encounter.

However, the Pure Land School is both easy and safe to practice. It can be practiced anywhere, anytime. The only requirements for Pure Land practitioners are unwavering belief, sincere vows and diligent cultivation. We can chant "Amituofo" silently or aloud, while sitting, standing, walking or lying down. In our constantly changing times, if we can maintain sincerity of mind, a compassionate heart, the unwavering vow to transcend the cycle of birth and death, the patience to practice over several years and the diligence to see through to the true reality and to let go of attachments; we will achieve. We can then be born into the Western Pure Land carrying over our existing karma.

From ancient times till now, sages and patriarchs have said that the Pure Land method is the most difficult to believe, but the easiest to practice. Therefore, Master Chin Kung urges us to truly cultivate, to sincerely chant "Amituofo" without doubt, without intermingling with other methods or thoughts, without interruption, to be constantly mindful of Buddha Amituofo and vow to be born into the Pure Land, to become a Buddha in this lifetime.
http://www.amtfweb.org/english/master-html/english-viewpoint.htm
 
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If you took the Koran and removed anything about Allah, kept only the moral instructions, and insisted that's all modern people need, what would a Muslim think of that? If you took the Gospels and removed anything supernatural, kept only the moral instructions, and insisted that's all modern people need, what would a Christian think of that?

I don't care what they might think of that. Why should I?

What they might think wouldn't make my conclusions about what modern people need incorrect.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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It's how Buddhism is perceived in the West by atheists looking to further their own agenda and by self-help gurus looking to make a quick buck.
There is FAR more money to be made with authoritarian "personality cult"-type religions than with "try this for yourself and see if it works"-approaches. In fact, it's one of the defining characteristics of what's commonly called a "cult".
Just look at the Hare Krishnas for an example: it's basically Hinduism conceived through the lens of Christian fundamentalism, specifically geared towards a western audience.

The same texts that provide the moral and ethical teachings of Buddha encourage taking spiritual refuge in him as the Awakened One as well. It's special pleading to assume that the Buddha's moral teachings were accurately preserved while his teachings about himself were not:
Well, it's a teacher's JOB to help people travel the path he's already tread, so that those who follow behind him have an easier journey and don't have to re-invent the wheel all over again.
It's kind of silly to assume that you could "awaken" to your enlightened state just by venerating the teacher, though. That's like watching another person eat an omelette, and then claiming that you're not hungry anymore because he's already eaten on your behalf.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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I don't care what they might think of that. Why should I?

What they might think wouldn't make my conclusions about what modern people need incorrect.

Well put!

There's far too much of a tacit (or sometimes not so tacit) demand for unearned respect when it comes to ancient world views with outdated morals and conceptions of reality. The only reason we still extend so much courtesy to these ideologies is because people identify so strongly with them that criticism feels like a personal attack to them.
But I think people ought to wake up and realize that criticizing world views is a VITAL part of testing them for truthfulness. Living secure in one's misconceptions might be comforting, but it doesn't encourage personal progress.
 
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Yoder777

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There is FAR more money to be made with authoritarian "personality cult"-type religions than with "try this for yourself and see if it works"-approaches. In fact, it's one of the defining characteristics of what's commonly called a "cult".

Actually, in the West, millions of dollars have been made selling books and offering meditation classes specifically for people looking for a secular approach to Buddhism. Are you aware of this or not? What you are saying is not true when it comes to the success of secular Buddhism.

It's kind of silly to assume that you could "awaken" to your enlightened state just by venerating the teacher, though. That's like watching another person eat an omelette, and then claiming that you're not hungry anymore because he's already eaten on your behalf.

Please tell me what you know about Pure Land Buddhism and then please tell me what your primary sources are. I would really appreciate it. What you are saying is clearly a misrepresentation of what Pure Land Buddhists believe and why they believe it.
 
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nightflight

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You'd probably be better informed if you weren't trying to learn Buddhism on your own. You'd still be encouraged to ultimately think and decide for yourself, but you'd at least have better information to make a decision.

I wasn't learning it "on my own". I belonged to several online discussions groups, one a modernist, one a more traditional.

Again and again, I have explained to you the meaning of Amida Buddha and entrusting in him, and again and again you evade the issue. Will you not even listen to Shinran himself, and yet you claim to have been a Shin Buddhist??? -

And again and again (and yes, again) I have explained to you that I CANNOT believe in a literal Amida Buddha.

What Shin Buddhist texts have you actually read? You can't just read some Wikipedia articles, never belong to an actual temple, and then claim that Shin Buddhism just didn't work for you.

Sigh. I gave you a book list above, a list which included the Tannisho. For crying out loud how much does a person have to know about this in order to make an "informed" decision? Did Shinran demand university degrees from the poor fishermen and farmers he preached to?

To put is simply, very, very simply, I tried Shin Buddhism and it didn't do it for me.
 
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