Dr. Ruth: Women can't say no to sex once naked in bed

[dgiharris]

....
It makes me sad to think that so many people on this forum, yourself included, think that men are just mindless penis driven sex monsters with no control over their thrusting.

The safest thing for a woman is to believe that men are mindless penis driven sex monsters with no control of their thrusting.

The most dangerous thing for a woman is to believe they can put men in this situation and then decide not to go through with it at the last second and that there would be no problems.

Just as you never pull out a gun unless you intend to use it... You should never be in a situation of extreme arousal with both parties being naked unless you are willing to sexually stimulate each other...

...I've never met a man who simply could not stop. 'nope, sorry baby, my brain says quit, but my hips just won't give it up!'

I would venture to guess that you've never teased a man to the point of sexual arousal with both of you lying naked on the bed about to have sex and then you say, "you know what, I don't want to have sex or do anything sexual anymore, lets cuddle..."

The reason i've never accidentally shot myself in the head is because I've never played around with a loaded gun.

The reason why most women have never met a man that simply wouldn't stop is because most women have sense enough to never put themselves in these situations

Dang this reminds me of so many nurse-in-public debates I've been involved in.... You men and your Uncontrollable sexual nature...how do you walk down the beach without poking every bikini laden girl that bounces by? I mean... She dressed like that in front of you... That MUST mean she wants sex, right? /sarcasm

Funny, because the above isn't all that sarcastic. You'd be surprised how thin of a line there is between a man seeing a beautiful woman and thoughts of sex which "may" in the right circumstances become thoughts of rape. I would argue that a man in his prime thinks about sex more in one day than a woman thinks about sex in one month if not year!!!

The Law and the Social Contract are pretty much the only things standing between a significant percentage (non majority) of the male population raping women on a whim. In fact, I shudder to think about what percentage of men would rape a beautiful woman if they were put into a position where they 100% knew they'd never get caught.

This is the reason why rape is so common in Wars and disasters with lots of chaos or instances where the law is being broken. i.e. rape is very common among those who smuggle groups of people into the US, it is very common to pick out the attractive women and rape them (sad to say) because the smugglers know they can get away with it...

This is the reason why women should never be alone at night when in a strange place (and this goes double for when vacationing in some unfamiliar area)

Are all men rapists? No, of course not. Thankfully, most of us have a lifetime of social conditioning that prevent us from acting on those baser Reptile Brain emotions. But I don't think most women truly understand how close those impulses and emotions are to the surface for men and how under the right "extreme" conditions they can come out.

I would venture to guess that most date rapes aren't premeditated and that should tell you something right?.

 

[Moral Orel]

I wish you were here so I could do an experiment so you could see my point. In the experiment I would hook up a heart monitor to you. I would then tell you that a series of stimuli are going to be applied to you and that at no time will you be in any danger whatsoever and that everything is 100% safe as verified by a team of scientists and people you trust.

I would then subject you to various things: a venomless snake, a harmless tarantula, an empty gun in which I point it at you at point blank and pull the trigger....

The heart monitor will show your serious increases in your blood pressure and heart rate despite you "knowing" that everything is safe. That is, your Reptile brain will override your Cognitive centers and even though you "know" it will not prevent your Reptile brain from taking control of different aspects of your body...

And again, I acknowledge that my heart would beat faster, I'd probably sweat, I'd probably feel "chills" and hairs standing on end, you betcha. Would it make me lift my arms up and perform some action? No. I might think about performing some action, but there has never been a time in my life that I was out of control.

The main issue I take with your argument is that you seem to insist that women who change their mind "too late" are doing it on a whim or just to tease you because women are petty. That may happen sometimes, but that doesn't excuse a person for their actions in the slightest.

You shouldn't be warning women that they might get raped if they aren't careful and then say that you aren't blaming women at all when they do get raped.

 

[Paradoxum]

I agree, but there should be discussion about that beforehand or else consent for sex could reasonably be seen as implied. If there is an agreement about the activity to take place, that's a different matter.

I agree that saying you aren't going as far as sex would be helpful, I don't think it should be necessary. The first time, or first few times, consent for sex shouldn't be assumed by nudity.

I believe in hormones. You can't expect someone in the throws of sexual excitement mid-intercourse to suddenly change course. Yes, it can be done, but reason and sexual excitement don't mix well.

I'm not sure stopping requires reason. I'd think people naturally consider what other people say, especially if they are saying it like they mean it. But I do understand it would be annoying or difficult.

 

[Tina W]

Ok so let's say you and your husband get frisky and head to the bedroom. You start going at it, hot and heavy. Suddenly something feels 'off' and you want to stop for a breather, you know, collect your thoughts, grab a drink of water. So you say, "honey, please stop for a minute."
You are saying that it is perfectly ok for him to ignore you and keep in pounding away?
Do you have any respect for yourself?

Of course I have! LOL The last thing on my mind at that moment will be getting a drink of water or collecting my thoughts. I have enough respect for myself that I'm not going to put myself in the position where I have to rely on the guy to stop. Plus I'm not going to stop in the middle of it just because. Who does that? I have enough sense and respect for myself and him that if I think I can't go all the way then I won't start. Simple as that. I understand the process that the mind and body goes through in the heat of passion so I respect myself and him enough to not put us in a situation that will be uncomfortable or frustrating for either one of us. I'm thinking about BOTH of us, not just myself.

 

[Open Heart]

What if the guy does or says something that is a real turn off? Is Dr. Ruth saying that a woman can't get disgusted and stop the lovemaking?

 

[Caitlin.ann]

It is never ever too late to change your mind during intimacy. If one party changes their mind, the other party is obligated to acquiesce immediately. It doesn't matter if you're both naked, in bed, participating in foreplay, or already having relations..if one party says "stop" then it stops immediately. Why is it so difficult for people to comprehend this concept?

 

[quatona]

It is never ever too late to change your mind during intimacy. If one party changes their mind, the other party is obligated to acquiesce immediately. It doesn't matter if you're both naked, in bed, participating in foreplay, or already having relations..if one party says "stop" then it stops immediately. Why is it so difficult for people to comprehend this concept?

Well, the argument seems to be that - while in a discussion they can comprehended - when being horny their comprehension, their empathy and their sense of decency is shut off.

 

[Moral Orel]

I'm going to get all Oprah-y and share a story. No it isn't about rape.

My brother was a horrible person. He used to knock me around a lot, more than usual older brothers would, but that's still kind of normal. It get's worse. As a child he threatened to murder our mother in her sleep. It terrified her so much that she slept with a knife to protect herself. As an early teen, he would mock my mother's own mental health issues by cackling the "Woody Woodpecker" laugh at her without provocation just to imply she was insane. By the time he was 16 he had assaulted both of my parents and they finally kicked him out. Fast forward a couple years and he and my parents reconcile, tentatively. He had gotten married, and within a few short months he and his wife hated each other. But they were living with my parents at the time, and she had two children from a previous relationship, so until someone found another place to stay, they were stuck with each other. My brother had already been cheating on her, and because I was still a teenage-virgin at the time, he told her that she out to sleep with me. Just painting a picture of how little he thought of her.

She was no walk in the park either though. On three separate occasions I saw her attack him. Once she used a milk crate, another time she used a cordless phone, and another time she used an actual knife from the kitchen. On each and every one of these occasions, my brother grabbed her by the arms and restrained her. One of the times he had to lock her in a closet because she wouldn't stop screaming and clawing at him, but he never once hit her. I asked him why he didn't just smack her after she came at him with a knife. I told him that I saw everything and I would back him up to the police if they were called. He said, "Are you nuts? You think the police are going to believe you or me over a woman with a black eye? No way am I going to jail over that..." expletives followed.

So now, a person with that much malice; that much anger; that much hatred towards his wife; that little aversion to violence; that little respect for women... A monster like that can keep his composure when someone is threatening his life, but some men just gotta rape? A man being horny somehow makes him lose control more than a person like my brother who has struggled with anger issues his entire life? No one short of an actual psychopath does not have control over his own body and his own actions.

And he wouldn't have even cared if he hurt her, he was still only concerned about himself!

Lizard brain overtaking cognitive faculties is nonsense.

 

[Dave-W]

It is never ever too late to change your mind during intimacy. If one party changes their mind, the other party is obligated to acquiesce immediately. It doesn't matter if you're both naked, in bed, participating in foreplay, or already having relations..if one party says "stop" then it stops immediately. Why is it so difficult for people to comprehend this concept?

And what would you do if you were brought right to the very edge of your happy ending; and you need that release almost more than your next breath of air, and your partner suddelly says "STOP?"

 

[Dave-W]

Lizard brain overtaking cognitive faculties is nonsense.

Actually it is scriptural.

Proverbs 5:19 a lovely deer, a graceful doe. Let her breasts fill you at all times with delight; be intoxicated always in her love.

"Intoxicated" here is שָׁגָה shagah and it means to "to err, stray; to swerve, meander, reel, roll, be intoxicated, err (in drunkenness); to go astray (morally); to commit sin of ignorance or inadvertence, err (ignorantly)." IOW, to totally lose control.

 

[Cearbhall]

Actually, Doctor Ruth does make some sense. If a woman is naked in bed with a man, that could reasonably be taken to be implied consent. Why would she be naked in bed unless she intended to have sex?

For starters, there are lots of sexual activities you can do besides intercourse, and many of them require waist-down nudity.

It's just best to talk about what exactly you have in mind before it gets to this point, as unsexy as that sounds.

 

[riona]

Of course I have! LOL The last thing on my mind at that moment will be getting a drink of water or collecting my thoughts. I have enough respect for myself that I'm not going to put myself in the position where I have to rely on the guy to stop. Plus I'm not going to stop in the middle of it just because. Who does that? I have enough sense and respect for myself and him that if I think I can't go all the way then I won't start. Simple as that. I understand the process that the mind and body goes through in the heat of passion so I respect myself and him enough to not put us in a situation that will be uncomfortable or frustrating for either one of us. I'm thinking about BOTH of us, not just myself.

You're missing the point. Granted- you believe at this moment you would never ever have any reason to stop mid-coitus. I get it. You can predict the future when it comes to your sexual escapades.
The point is WERE it to happen, for whatever reason- would you expect to be respected and for him to stop? And if he didn't, would you consider it rape (him forcing himself on you, even though you said stop.)?

 

[riona]

And what would you do if you were brought right to the very edge of your happy ending; and you need that release almost more than your next breath of air, and your partner suddelly says "STOP?"

I have actually done this. In all fun and games. And before you think of me as some heartless whatever monster, it was not malicious. We were having a great time. The point is that I DID tell him to stop just before he was 'there' and he did. Game or not, ready or not, he stopped.

In these very rare events where it gets to that point when she says stop, the sex-crazed, uncontrollable, hormone raging man CAN pull out and "finish" elsewhere (on her, on the bed, on the floor...) even in the next breath. So stop acting like just because you're already in there you have no choice but to finish in there.

 

[riona]

Rape isn't necessarily consciously intended at that point, and it is odd to see that as rape when intercourse has already commenced with full consent. It seems to me that rape involves the intention to have intercourse with someone against their consent. If intercourse has already begun with consent, then the man is not a rapist. If I were a judge, I could not in good conscience charge that man with rape. He may be insensitive or have difficulty controlling himself while experiencing sexual excitement, but that's a different matter.


eudaimonia,

Mark

I agree, it was most likely never intended! And I'm sure the woman probably never intended to not follow through.
But, again, the point is, when the word "stop" or the safe word if that may be, is spoken, the one told to stop has the duty to STOP. And if he doesn't, that means he doesn't care what the other party wants, thinks, or feels. At that point it becomes a rape- I will do what I want to your body whether you want me to or not. THAT is what rape is. And that is when it becomes non-consentiual.

It's so black and white... man is having consentiual sex with woman. Woman says "stop". Man then must decide: A) Respect her wishes and stop B) Ignore her wishes and continue having sex.

If he chooses A, all is well, and life is grand.
If he chooses B, it is now rape.

And how do you think the woman is going to be responding the rest of the 'session' once she has stated she wants the man to quit and he doesn't?? Do you really think she's just going to keep laying there accepting it? Or is she going to be protesting, and maybe even physically fighting? Is it still consentiual? Is it still OK for him to continue? Hardly.

 

[dgiharris]

....Lizard brain overtaking cognitive faculties is nonsense.

anecdotes are all well and good, but they aren't data... I can easily counter your anecdote with another finding someone with anger management issues or poor impulse control or an incident of Road Rage where someone who had never committed a crime "lost it" one day in a fit of Road Rage.

Do you know what a bell curve is? do you understand that the total human population falls under a bell curve for everything: intelligence, height, weight, etc...

Well, if you were to list out various psychological attributes each attribute would generate its own bell curve when applied to a human population.

Take impulse control.

Not everyone has good impulse control, but impulse control would also likely fall on a bell curve. My argument about the Reptile Brain vs the Cognitive Brain would likewise conform to a bell curve and based on various situations, you'd generate various bell curves of human behavior or response to said situation.

If you want to negate all of that with a simple, "Well I knew a guy and he could control himself therefore everyone should be able to control themselves" anecdote than *shrug*, guess you just don't have a firm grasp of science.

Or put another way, if what you say is true, then why would the entire field of psychology exist? Serious question? In your opinion, why does the field of psychology exist? Why does Road Rage and Crimes of Passion occur on a daily basis?

 

[Armoured]

And what would you do if you were brought right to the very edge of your happy ending; and you need that release almost more than your next breath of air, and your partner suddelly says "STOP?"

I'd stop. Because I'm not a rapist.

Then I'd ask "what's wrong?" because I have basic human empathy, and recognise that whatever is wrong enough to make her say "stop", is probably more important than getting off.

 

[Armoured]

I agree, it was most likely never intended! And I'm sure the woman probably never intended to not follow through.
But, again, the point is, when the word "stop" or the safe word if that may be, is spoken, the one told to stop has the duty to STOP. And if he doesn't, that means he doesn't care what the other party wants, thinks, or feels. At that point it becomes a rape- I will do what I want to your body whether you want me to or not. THAT is what rape is. And that is when it becomes non-consentiual.

It's so black and white... man is having consentiual sex with woman. Woman says "stop". Man then must decide: A) Respect her wishes and stop B) Ignore her wishes and continue having sex.

If he chooses A, all is well, and life is grand.
If he chooses B, it is now rape.

And how do you think the woman is going to be responding the rest of the 'session' once she has stated she wants the man to quit and he doesn't?? Do you really think she's just going to keep laying there accepting it? Or is she going to be protesting, and maybe even physically fighting? Is it still consentiual? Is it still OK for him to continue? Hardly.

Just feel it necessary to drop a "man/woman" in there.

 

[riona]

If the point of a debate is to try and convince the other side they are wrong, then there's obviously no reason to continuing this one.
The people who believe that men are uncontrollable sexual beasts will obviously continue to believe that no matter what. They will continue believing that it's totally OK for a man (or woman) to keep having sex even when the other party- who once agreed- has said "stop".
They believe 'You said yes 5 minutes ago, you're stuck now' is OK.
And worse yet- they believe they will be able to keep themselves from ever being put into this kind of position.
And even worse than that- they believe any person who does put themselves in this position is wrong for saying 'stop', and has no choice but to continue the act until the other person is done.
Which leads me to probably the worst of all conclusions... that if they were actively having sex with someone who asked them to stop, they wouldn't stop.

I can only pray that you can always protect yourself. That you can always have control over your situation and your body. And that nobody ever ignores your request to stop. And that if you were ever to be requested to stop you would have the respect for your partner to do so.

 

[Caitlin.ann]

And what would you do if you were brought right to the very edge of your happy ending; and you need that release almost more than your next breath of air, and your partner suddelly says "STOP?"

I would stop..immediately. My "happy ending" isn't worth trampling on my partner's rights.

 

[Moral Orel]

Or put another way, if what you say is true, then why would the entire field of psychology exist? Serious question? In your opinion, why does the field of psychology exist? Why does Road Rage and Crimes of Passion occur on a daily basis?

Do you think that the entire field of psychology was built to understand poor impulse control?

Here are some links to information about road rage and crimes of passion. Take special note of the fact that people who commit these crimes are already messed up. We aren't talking about normal, productive members of society that flip out just that once.

road rage
crimes of passion

Some excerpts:

The person who commits a “crime of passion” has at least in his thinking resorted to extreme measures in response to other disturbing, threatening situations.​

High-anger drivers are more likely to get in a car angry, which may stem from work or home stress. They generally tend to express anger in more outward and less controlled ways as well as react impulsively.​

If what you're saying to women is, "Be careful when you get sexual, there are crazy men who don't respond well to rejection and may choose to harm you" then you're right.

But if what you are saying to women is, "If you choose to stop intercourse, some perfectly normal men will lose control of their bodies and rape you" then you are wrong.