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Question about Once Saved Always Saved

ALoveDivine

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And just what is the penalty for sin?
Eternal death, aka the wrath of God.

And how did Jesus fully pay this penalty?
By being forsaken of the Father on the cross. We can't even begin to imagine the depths of what that truly means.

Where do you get your facts?
The bible

Where do you get Jesus HAD to die under the wrath of God for every single sin to be forgiven?
The bible. Like, the whole thing, cover to cover. That's the nature of atonement, the atonement of Christ being the central theme of the entire bible!

What do you mean God cannot forgive sins if you confess and repent of them?
Confession and repentance in and of themselves is not enough; the Lamb of God had to suffer, shed his blood, and die in order for sins to be forgiven. Again, this is the central message of all scripture.

God forgave many sins many decades before Jesus died.
Ad those he forgave were justified by faith in the coming Messiah who was to make atonement for their sins. People have always and only been justified by faith. Read the book of Romans again.

This lady's sins were forgiven without the aid of the cross.
See above. To say someone's sins were forgiven without the cross is blasphemy. You are saying that Christ's death was of no effect. Please repent of this heresy.
 
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bcbsr

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Originally Posted by MikaylaTheJesusFreak View Post
My pastor told me that if you accepted christ even if you stopped believing in him, you would still go to heaven but your not going to have the same place in heaven as a Christian who has believed till the death. (I'm Baptist)
Where does he get that idea?

That's known as Free Grace Theology. Google it. Though it's not something I endorse. John says, "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." 1John 2:19 and "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." 1John 3:9,10
 
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extraordinary

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If Jesus did not die for the sins you commit after you get saved,
then any sin you thereafter commit would damn you to Hell no matter what.
This is total insanity!
I've lost count ...
has it been 1 or 1.1 million times that I have posted 1 John 1:7--2:1.
.
 
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ALoveDivine

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This is total insanity!
You have utterly missed the point. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin (Hebrews 9:22). The OT sacrafices were types that prefigured the perfect sacrifice of Christ. Again, without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.

If Jesus did not die for your future sins, how can your future sins then ever be forgiven? Because...are you ready? WITHOUT THE SHEDDING OF BLOOD THERE IS NO REMISSION OF SIN! What about this do you not understand?

As for the scripture you referenced. There is a difference between our eternal standing before God and our temporal fellowship with him. If we do not confess and forsake a sin we've committed (post-salvation), then our fellowship with our heavenly Father is harmed. We are still saved, but the fellowship is hurt.

Positionally, that is eternally, all of our sins were laid upon Christ and the wrath due them was poured out on him. At the moment of regeneration, the perfect righteousness of Christ is laid to our account, just as our sins were laid to his account. Christ has put away our sin with his own BLOOD, so now when the Father looks at us we are found worthy, not by our own human righteousness, but by the righteousness of Christ.

Christ not only died for us, he also lived for us. He fulfilled the law that none of us ever could. We are actually saved by works. But not our works, the perfect works of Christ, which have been imputed to our account. This is why salvation is by faith alone! If you're obedience is what saved you, as you are implicitly claiming, we would have a reason to boast in our salvation. But no, NO MAN shall boast before God!

Its very sad indeed that I have to explain the gospel to so-called Christians.
 
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ALoveDivine

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That's known as Free Grace Theology
Yeah, that's what we get when we loose the doctrines of repentance and regeneration. We often forget that salvation is a supernatural work of God whereby a dead sinner is raised to spiritual life.

The evidence of salvation is a new heart with new Godly desires, a deep love for Christ, a craving for holiness, and a lifestyle based on love of God and people. Not perfection by any means, but certainly newness of life. I can certainly testify that, although I still definitely mess up at times, I am nowhere near the same man I was before I met Christ.

My claim in this thread is that, for the type I have described above, their salvation is eternally secure. Those imperfect but Christ-loving, holiness craving, will of God pursuing people shall persevere unto the end and will be eternally saved.

I do not in any way believe that someone who says a sinners prayer once in their life and then lives just like the world can be assured of heaven and have no fear of Hell. On the contrary, without holiness no man shall see God.
 
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extraordinary

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You have utterly missed the point.
Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin
(Hebrews 9:22).
The OT sacrafices were types that prefigured the perfect sacrifice of Christ.
Again, without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.
Da shedding of da blood has already been done/accomplished!

All we have to do is activate Jesus' blood by confessing and repenting of our sins!
Butski, not just once!
Dis is just ONE PART of the sanctification-unto-holiness.
.
 
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ALoveDivine

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Da shedding of da blood has already been done/accomplished!
Then how can a saved person ever be damned for a sin he commits? Christ's blood was shed for that sin, yes? Which means its been remitted yes?

Or wait...you believe this blood isn't effective unless we do something to "activate it" (whatever that means)? So it wasn't an atonement, Christ didn't really bear our sins and atone for them in his own blood, and Christ didn't save us with his bloody propitiation on the cross, we save ourselves by "activating"? There is no such thing as a hypothetical atonement activated by man. The only way to believe in loss of salvation is to deny the substitutionary atonement of Christ, which is to deny the gospel.

And yes, as you may accuse me, I do not believe Christ died for literally all human beings that ever have, do, or will exist. He died, and really atoned for, the sins of those whom the Father gave him; the elect.

Dis is just ONE PART of the sanctification-unto-holiness
What saves us? Our personal righteousness? Or the righteousness of Christ? If you choose door number 1, you are preaching works righteousness, which is heresy, and I'm done with this discussion.

If you confess we are saved by the righteousness of Christ we can continue this conversation.
 
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extraordinary

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What saves us? Our personal righteousness? Or the righteousness of Christ? If you choose door number 1,
you are preaching works righteousness, which is heresy, and I'm done with this discussion.
If you confess we are saved by the righteousness of Christ we can continue this conversation.
Both saves us ... like everything, it's a co-operative effort betwixt God and man!

BACs who really are righteous will PRACTICE righteousness

Paul warned the Roman BACs that they have a CHOICE (Romans 6:16-19) …

“(slaves) of sin leading to (eternal) death, OR (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness”
… and he urged them, “present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness”

• “… whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.” (Acts 10:35)

• “… you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.” (1 John 2:29)

• “… let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous” (1 John 3:7)


• “… we, having died to sins, might live for (the practicing of) righteousness” (1 Peter 2:24)


• “Walk as children of light (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness,

righteousness, and truth), finding out what is acceptable to the Lord.” (Ephesians 5:8-10)
Notice that righteousness is one of the fruits of the Spirit of the “children of light”.

Try not to listen to your church ... instead try listening to Scripture and the Holy Spirit.
.
 
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ALoveDivine

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Both saves us
And with that I will respectfully abandon this conversation. We've both made our arguments and presented our cases, and the readers of this thread can prayerfully make up their own minds.

I pray that the Holy Spirit may open your eyes and draw you to abandon your errors and see the truth of the atonement and all that flows from it. Good day.

Try not to listen to your church ... instead try listening to Scripture and the Holy Spirit.
Please refrain from making assumptions about me, when you do not know me personally. I've come to my conclusions through countless hours of intensive biblical study and prayer, the vast majority of which had no connection to any church whatsoever.

I could say the same things about you, but I will refrain from doing so, as I do not know you.
 
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EmSw

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Eternal death, aka the wrath of God.

You say the penalty for sin is eternal death. Sorry, Jesus did not pay this price. He is alive and well today. Perhaps you meant the penalty is temporary death.

By being forsaken of the Father on the cross. We can't even begin to imagine the depths of what that truly means.

So, anyone who does not believe in Christ will be forsaken on their cross to pay their penalty, just the way He paid the penalty.

True, we do not know the depths of truths, nor imagine what all took place on the cross, but I say, you have a pretty good imagination.

The bible

Maybe you can show us from the Bible where Jesus paid the penalty of eternal death for us on the cross.

The bible. Like, the whole thing, cover to cover. That's the nature of atonement, the atonement of Christ being the central theme of the entire bible!

So, the atonement is about God's wrath. I personally thinks it's about His mercy.

Confession and repentance in and of themselves is not enough; the Lamb of God had to suffer, shed his blood, and die in order for sins to be forgiven. Again, this is the central message of all scripture.

I think repentance, turning away from your sins, and turning to God is enough for the forgiveness of sins. This is the central theme of the Bible.

You will not find anywhere in the OT where forgiveness was based upon Christ's suffering, shedding His blood, and dying in order to be forgiven. Go ahead, look it up; you won't find it.

Ad those he forgave were justified by faith in the coming Messiah who was to make atonement for their sins. People have always and only been justified by faith. Read the book of Romans again.

Again, please show me in the OT where those He forgave were justified by faith.

See above. To say someone's sins were forgiven without the cross is blasphemy. You are saying that Christ's death was of no effect. Please repent of this heresy.

First, I never said Christ's death was of no effect; where did you get that?

Please read of those forgiven in the OT; nothing is said of anyone dying on the cross (then or in the future) to effect forgiveness.

Did Jesus commit blasphemy when He forgave the many without the cross?

Here is what Jesus said of Himself in Matthew 9 - 5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, arise, and walk?
6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.


Jesus had power to forgive sins without the cross. Do you believe what He said?
 
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extraordinary

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IMO, ALoveDivine is confused like many females on Christian forums.
They reject the warnings because they know they are close to God,
doing their best, and have been given assurance of their salvation.
They just cannot fathom anyone else being in a different situation!

Are we really to believe that the 100+ warning verses were written to non-BACs,
when some of these warnings actually warn of losing "eternal life"?

News Flash ...
Many Spirit-filled BACs strongly believe from Scripture and the Holy Spirit
that it is far more than just possible for a BAC to NOT inherit eternal life!

.
 
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Hawkiz

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And yes, as you may accuse me, I do not believe Christ died for literally all human beings that ever have, do, or will exist. He died, and really atoned for, the sins of those whom the Father gave him; the elect.

1 Peter 3:18 'for Christ also suffered for sins once for ALL; the righteous for the unrighteous, in order to bring you to God...'

It sounds as if you don't believe this verse to be true when you claim that He DIDNT die for all...

2 Corintians 5:15 'and He died for ALL, so that those who might live no longer for themselves, but for him who died and was raised for them.'

Christ didn't die only for the few. He died and rose for ALL.
Now, I realize that admitting this means that you will have to either a) admit that each of us, as individuals, must 'work' to accept Christ and have faith. Or b) you must somehow contort 'ALL' to actually only mean the elect.

True enough that not ALL will believe on The Lord Jesus Christ. But that is very different than what I quoted from you above. HE died and rose for ALL, but not ALL died and rose unto Him. We each must choose to accept His gift of salvation. This is the 'work' that He asks of us: to follow Him.

Peace in Christ
 
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ALoveDivine

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It sounds as if you don't believe this verse to be true when you claim that He DIDNT die for all...
The real question is, does this refer to all without exception or all without distinction?

That is, did he die for every human being ever, or did he die for all kinds of human beings, jews and gentiles, free and slave, all races, all nationalities, etc. I would argue the later, as Jesus also says he dies for his sheep. And read the high-priestly prayer of Christ in John 17, where he specifically does not pray for the world, but only those the Father gave him.

Christ himself makes a distinction between the world as a whole, and the elect. So yes, Christ died for all without distinction, but not all without exception. Did he die for Hitler?

This comes down to your understanding of the atonement. For you free-will lose-your-salvation people, how do you view the nature of Christ's atonement? I assume you all reject imputation, expiation, propitiation, etc?

They just cannot fathom anyone else being in a different situation!
I have not always been close to the Lord and walking in obedience. I've fallen plenty of times, even for long periods of time before the Lord graciously brought me back to repentance. I DO NOT believe I lost my salvation each time, people are not jumping into and out of salvation. Our Father does not let his children be absolutely abandoned to sin, he disciplines us and brings us back. This is what has happened to me every time, and it was his doing, not my own.

You better believe I am once saved always saved, and I will affirm that glorious truth till my dying breath so help me God! And yes I am in fact an unapologetic five-point Calvinist, praise God.

Some of the warning verses concern loosing rewards and inheritance, which is not the same as loosing salvation. Other warning verses are addressed to those in the churches who are not born-again but are getting the full revelation through communing with the assembly of believers. If these verses do mean we can loose salvation, then the bible contradicts itself. John 6:37-39 is absolutely, unmistakably, crystal clear. Salvation cannot ever be lost, period.
 
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ALoveDivine

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This is an old post of mine, but it makes probably the best case for my view in one single post.

If we could lose our salvation, we would lose it. All of us willfully sin, at least every now and then. We all still have sin dwelling in us. If sin caused us to lose our salvation, we'd all be doomed.

The bible says the very faith that saves us is a gift of God. Does God give us a merely human faith that can fail at any time? No, God gives us an enduring supernatural faith that never fails.

"who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
- 1 Peter 1:5

Now the bible does warn against falling away. It gives many warning. It does stress endurance and perseverance. Here's the thing though. The bible equally emphasizes both the necessity and the certainty of perseverance.

Eternal security is a false doctrine, in so far as it says one can live any way they want and even abandon the faith and still go to heaven because they prayed the sinners prayer once. From my own research, the doctrine that best summarizes the whole counsel of God on this issue is the perseverance of the saints.

The Perseverance of the Saints says that one must persevere in faith in order to be eternally saved, but all those who are truly born of God will persevere because we are kept by the power of God through faith. From a human perspective, it is perseverance. From God's perspective, it is preservation. We persevere because we are preserved (or kept) by the power of God.

Consider in the book of revelation where Jesus repeated promises heaven to those who "overcome". Sounds like its possible to lose salvation, right? Well then we go to first John:

"For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?"
- 1 John 5:4-5

There are countless verses proving the eternality of salvation. If the typical 'proof texts' cited by the lose-your-salvation crowd really mean one can lose their salvation, then the bible contradicts itself. The best way to systematically understand the variety of verses found on this topic is to hold to the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. Here are just a couple verses proving the eternality of salvation.

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day."
- John 6:37-39

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand"
- John 10:27-28

"so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ."
- 1 Corinthians 1:7-8

"I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled."
- John 17:11-12

As you can see, the scriptures clearly say that it is God who keeps us. The Father and the Son both keep us securely in their hands and it is the will of the Father that no true believer ever perish. At to that the clear statement of Jesus that they SHALL NEVER perish. On top of this take the statements that we are kept by the power of God through faith, and you have a rock solid case for the eternality of salvation. Salvation cannot be lost.

Combine these truths with the texts that emphasize the need for perseverance to be finally saved, and you do not have a contradiction, rather you have the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. Perseverance in faith is necessary for final salvation, but all those born of God will persevere because we are kept by the power of God through faith.

No other doctrine so effectively harmonizes the variety of verses found on this topic. We can rejoice that salvation is forever and cannot be lost. What each of us needs to do is to examine ourselves and make sure were in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5).

I honestly think the idea of losing ones salvation has brought just as much bad fruit into the church as the easy-believism idea of eternal security. We have countless Christians now, if unconsciously, working for their salvation, and living in constant fear that they are not good enough to go to heaven.

The idea that your righteousness is what determines if you are ultimately saved or not is a satanic lie straight from the pit of Hell. We need the imputed righteousness of Christ to stand before a thrice holy God, and that righteousness is credited to our account the moment we repent and believe, at which time we are sealed with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of our inheritance (Ephesians 1:14), which is imperishable, undefiled, reserved in heaven for us (1 Peter 1:4).

I think a lot of Christians get messed up by not understanding the difference between justification and sanctification. At the moment of true repentance and faith, the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us and we are declared righteous before God. We are sealed with the Holy Spirit and set apart unto God, this is initial sanctification. Following this is progressive sanctification, as the Holy Spirit works within us to conform us to the image of Christ. This requires our cooperation, if you will.

Us doing a terrible job in the sanctification process in no way reverses our justification. We are justified before God by the merit of Christ. Christ propitiated the wrath of God for our sins, so there is no condemnation. The righteousness of Christ is imputed to us, so there is no condemnation. Quenching and grieving the spirit in sanctification will result in loss of comfort and assurance, temporal judgement, and lose of eternal rewards, but our salvation is secure, because our salvation is all of grace and all of Christ.

The moment we say our justification depends on our performance, we have lapsed into works-righteousness.
 
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extraordinary

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If we could lose our salvation, we would lose it. All of us willfully sin, at least every now and then. We all still have sin dwelling in us. If sin caused us to lose our salvation, we'd all be doomed.
I love this ...
I've perfectly answered this at least 10 million times already on this forum!
Okay, Rolf Sr. and Rolf Jr. do your thing ... Atta boys!

ROFLSmiley.gif
ROFLSmiley.gif
LOUDER, boys, LOUDER!!
 
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ALoveDivine

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I love this ...
Out of all the scriptures, theology, and exposition I've posted, as well as the questions I've asked, this is how you respond?

At least I can support my views biblically and theologically, you just ignore evidence and logic to support your aberrant anthropocentric notions.

Let me ask you even more plainly. In your view, why did Christ die? Was his death on the cross necessary for our salvation? If so, why? If so, how does Christ's death bring salvation?

I can coherently and consistently answer each of these questions and back it up with scripture. Lets see if you can do the same.
 
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EmSw

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Out of all the scriptures, theology, and exposition I've posted, as well as the questions I've asked, this is how you respond?

At least I can support my views biblically and theologically, you just ignore evidence and logic to support your aberrant anthropocentric notions.

In post #70, I asked you to provide passages which state Jesus paid the penalty of eternal death on the cross. If you can support your views biblically, please do so.

I also stated, 'you will not find anywhere in the OT where forgiveness was based upon Christ's suffering, shedding His blood, and dying in order to be forgiven. Go ahead, look it up; you won't find it'.

Did you get a chance to look it up? What did you find?

You also did not respond to Matthew 9. Let me quote it again -
5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, arise, and walk?
6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

Please notice Jesus forgave this man without any connection to His dying on the cross. According to your view, this would be impossible. Your view would have Jesus saying instead, 'But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins once I have died on the cross.'
 
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ALoveDivine

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I asked you to provide passages which state Jesus paid the penalty of eternal death on the cross.
Isaiah 53, Romans 3:25-26

Paul speaks in Romans of Christ being publicly displayed as a propitiation. A propitiation is a wrath-appeasing sacrifice. The bible declares plainly that Christ was publicly displayed by God as a wrath-appeasing sacrifice, that God may both be just and the justifier of wicked men.

Proverbs 17:15 reveals the essential paradox; he who punishes the innocent and he who acquits the guilty are both alike an abomination before God. How then can God acquit the guilty? That is why GOD had to become a man in the person of Christ. Only God could do this, punishing any one man for the sins of other men would not be just, see the first part of the aforementioned verse. Yet God, as the very judge, can certainly voluntarily take the sins of others upon himself. And yet, a man had to be punished for sin, because it is man that stands condemned. The substitute therefore had to be both God and man in order to resolve the paradox of the moral standard of Proverbs 17:15 and the redemptive purpose of God in the salvation of sinners. This is why God-incarnate, Christ, had to be set forth as a propitiation (a wrath-appeasing sacrifice), in order that the guilty may be acquitted. The only way for there to be a just substitutionary propitiation for the sins of human beings was for God himself, as a man, to be that substitute.

So lets get to the depth of this. Christ, on the cross, appeased God's wrath. That is what it means to be a propitiation. Appeased God's wrath due what? Sin. With this understanding of what propitiation means, now read Isaiah 53, the whole chapter. He bore our iniquities...it pleased the Lord to crush him...by his stripes we are healed...upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace...etc.

This truth of penal substitution, the blood propitiation of Christ, is taught throughout scripture, from the typological sacrifices of the Old Testament, to the prophesy of Isaiah 53, and all throughout the New Testament.

'you will not find anywhere in the OT where forgiveness was based upon Christ's suffering, shedding His blood, and dying in order to be forgiven.
Not true. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin, as I demonstrated a couple posts ago. The Old Testament sacrifices were prefigurative of the once-and-for-all sacrifice of Christ, the lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world. Read the book of Hebrews for insight into this. Take for example when the priests of Israel would lay their hands on the animal to be slaughtered. This symbolized the imputation of the sins of israel to the animal, then the animal was slain. Likewise God the Father imputed the sins of believers to Christ, and then slayed him. The sacrifice of Christ was actually effectual in the remission of sins, for all believers throughout all time, the animal sacrifices merely prefigured this.

But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins
Perhaps because the eternal plan of God was the propitiatory atonement of Christ for the expiation of sin? Christ is indeed the lamb slain from the foundation of the world as, again, the Old Testament sacrificial system prefigures. Christ had the power to forgive sins on earth because they were going to be imputed to him and he was going to be the propitiation for them. We Christians really need to take some time to study the Old Testament in light of the New Testament, it makes things a lot more clear.

Now following all of this, we come to the blessed truth of double imputation. The imputation of our sins to Christ, as expounded above, and the imputation of Christ's righteousness to us, as is described clearly in the following two passages of scripture.

"But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”
(Romans 4:5-8)

With this passage clearly in mind, let us now look once again at one of the greatest and most powerful verses in the entire bible.

"For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him"
(2 Corinthians 5:21)

With the clearly exposition of Romans 4:5-8 in mind, we see that 2 Corinthians 5:21 doesn't make the claim that we are somehow made in our own selves as righteous as Christ was. It is referring to double imputation, the imputation of our sins to Christ and the imputation of Christ's righteousness to us. We become the righteousness of God, in him. When we are joined with him through faith, we become the righteousness of God. Imputed righteousness. It is only by this imputed righteousness, the righteousness of Christ, by which we stand before a perfectly Holy and Just God.

This is also why salvation cannot be lost; we are accounted righteous apart from works by the imputed righteousness of Christ. We are justified by the righteousness of Christ, not our own righteousness. To say that one can lose their salvation is to say that our own righteousness determines our justification. I have sufficiently proven the opposite from scripture.

The cross of Jesus Christ is the intersection of the infinite justice and the infinite mercy of God.

A carefully studied and correct understanding of the nature of the propitiation of Christ leads inescapably to the truth of the doctrines of the total depravity of man, unconditional election, effectual grace, and the perseverance of the saints. All five points of reformed soteriology flow inescapably from both the whole counsel of God's word and from deductive reasoning.
 
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rr999999999

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Sure, kill me now. I've just been saved, so I'll go to heaven. This is the kind of reasoning and assumptions to be made by many of the parasitic
denominations that believe you can lose your salvation. Parasitic, meaning they chain their parishioners to their beliefs, by bleeding them to works, that rob them of their time and money. Their hay will be burnt up,
where it could have been gold. They are force to put their denomination before their relationship with God. Not to dishonor, these denominations, because there are sheep and goats in all of them. When you are on your death bed, do you want to be the one that believes you can lose your salvation or one that believes you can't?

P.S. With enough torcher tools, everyone would eventually deny they even knew Jesus. Peter denied Jesus as he was being sifted by satan
If he died at that time, do you think he would have gone to hell?
 
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extraordinary

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In your view, why did Christ die? Was his death on the cross necessary for our salvation?
If so, why? If so, how does Christ's death bring salvation?
You promised me that you wouldn't be dealing with me any more!
Whatever.

God's New Plan is somewhat similar to OT salvation.
Everything is all about man co-operating with God.
News Flash ... God gave man a totally free will to do as he pleases.
Butski, this is way over your head.

In the OT, God's chosen people had to co-operate with God and His laws.
They failed ... too difficult ... they only had God's prophets to help them.
Butski, this is way over your head.

In the new covenant, God gave His chosen people 2 critically-imortant benefits:
a new nature, and the Holy Spirit.
Ergo, in the new covenant, man has no excuse for not succeeding with his salvation.
Butski, this is way over your head.

Maybe it will help someone else to see what's going on!

Yeah, I also never used to think this applied to me ...
Matthew 7:13-14
“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction,
and there are many who go in by it.

Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.”

Note: All of this is somewhat hidden in Scripture ...
simply because it is too discouraging, especially for new believers!
The Holy Spirit must reveal this in His timing.
Butski, the time is short now!
.
 
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