Is Baptism a 'Work', and if not, why is it Necessary ?

[Hoshiyya]

I have some questions to pose to those who consider themselves representative of Christianity:

If one believes - is raised to believe - one's entire life, when does one take baptism?

(Obviously this question wouldn't apply to those who believe in infant baptism. I'm asking because many Christians seem to assume every Christian is a convert, and tend to not adress a cradle-to-grave Christian life, but be more concerned with a Christian life that begins in one's 20's, 30's or 40's. I don't know much about Presbyterians, so perhaps this question does not apply to you guys. If so, you might want to ignore this one.)

This leads into the next question which can be stated in three ways:

Why do the WORK of baptism?
Am I saved by this work?
Am I not saved, unless I do this work?

These are the questions I would like to pose to Christians.



In addition, I want to comment on a reply I received to one of my questions.

In response to my first question (regarding the timing of baptism) I was told by a Christian:

" One can have had faith for years but there is still sin in their lives...our sin separates us from Ha'Shem...sin cannot remain in His presence (the reason why Adam and Eve were kept from the Tree of Life until the promised Redeemer of Genesis 3:15 would arrive to cleanse them of their sin)...sin must be dealt with/remissed/removed to enter the Kingdom"

I found his response very curious, maybe it's not normative Christian belief.

This (a rather unclear answer) implies that one needs to DO THE WORK of quitting sins (before doing the work of baptism) - but according to traditional Christianity, we are not saved by works, right?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Presbyterians do believe in the baptism of infants and correlate it with circumcision. The belief is that even as circumcision is the ritual identification of infant boys with the Jewish people, even so baptism is the ritual identification of infants (boys and girls) with the New Israel, the Christian Church.

Baptism does not convert these infants and only God knows if they are among His elect people. Thus, baptism is not a work of conversion, but is a work of identification, even as circumcision is a work of identification among the Jews.

 

[dhh712]

I have some questions to pose to those who consider themselves representative of Christianity:

If one believes - is raised to believe - one's entire life, when does one take baptism?

(Obviously this question wouldn't apply to those who believe in infant baptism. I'm asking because many Christians seem to assume every Christian is a convert, and tend to not adress a cradle-to-grave Christian life, but be more concerned with a Christian life that begins in one's 20's, 30's or 40's. I don't know much about Presbyterians, so perhaps this question does not apply to you guys. If so, you might want to ignore this one.)

This leads into the next question which can be stated in three ways:

Why do the WORK of baptism?
Am I saved by this work?
Am I not saved, unless I do this work?

I'm rather new to the Presbyterian faith so I will answer to the best of my ability; someone who has been in the faith longer than I may clarify or correct my answers. I would also say that baptism is one of my weaker areas of knowledge, at least it is comparatively (one might say I have a weak knowledge yet of a lot of matters of theology!)

The work of baptism is mainly done because that is what Christ has commanded us to do. It is one of the two sacraments (that and communion) and it is a sign of God's covenant with us--but it is no more than that. It does not save. One can be saved and not be baptized.

In addition, I want to comment on a reply I received to one of my questions.

In response to my first question (regarding the timing of baptism) I was told by a Christian:

" One can have had faith for years but there is still sin in their lives...our sin separates us from Ha'Shem...sin cannot remain in His presence (the reason why Adam and Eve were kept from the Tree of Life until the promised Redeemer of Genesis 3:15 would arrive to cleanse them of their sin)...sin must be dealt with/remissed/removed to enter the Kingdom"

I found his response very curious, maybe it's not normative Christian belief.

This (a rather unclear answer) implies that one needs to DO THE WORK of quitting sins (before doing the work of baptism) - but according to traditional Christianity, we are not saved by works, right?

I have come to the impression that I may have a rather extreme view of the depravity of human nature, yet it is my biblical understanding that none of us have any good in us whatsoever, that all of it is from God. Therefore, all natural man can exist in is a state of rebelling against God which constitutes in my mind a state of sin. God does regenerate the spirit so that it is able to do good works to the glory of God (and we now have the correct motive for doing good works whereas before it was always from a very corrupt motive. Even when we are regenerated, because of the taint upon our souls the motives are still likewise tainted and unable to be completely pure).

That is how I understand it at the moment; but God's word is living and instructive and I am always at work to learn from Him and to receive that knowledge which He has chosen to give to me. The way the sin is removed when we enter the Kingdom of God, to my understanding, is that for one, we are no more in these prisons of flesh and also the main thing is that Christ's righteousness has been imputed onto us. So it is not our own, but His.

No one can be saved by his own works. No one on their own can withstand beholding the holiness of God in His full revelation without being in Christ. On their own it will be to their eternal destruction. I also speculate that a reason some may not understand how depraved is the human nature is that they have not contemplated on the holiness of God.

 

[AMR]

I have some questions to pose to those who consider themselves representative of Christianity:

If one believes - is raised to believe - one's entire life, when does one take baptism?

(Obviously this question wouldn't apply to those who believe in infant baptism.

I may be confused about your intentions but why would you post this question in a safe-haven forum for Presbyterians where paedo-baptism is one aspect of our Confessional Standards? These matters are not subject to debate in this forum.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

Baptism is not a human work, it is something that God does for the believer. That's why it's called a sacrament.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I may be confused about your intentions but why would you post this question in a safe-haven forum for Presbyterians where paedo-baptism is one aspect of our Confessional Standards? These matters are not subject to debate in this forum.

He seems to be new to CF and posted this question on a multitude of forums.

 

[AMR]

Thanks, b[sup]7[/sup]

 

[DevotedChristian1]

Yeah praise jesus

 

[JLR1300]

Have a nice day.

 

[AMR]

Work covers everything except what the Bible specifically excludes. Since the Bible contrasts faith and works and the Bible contrasts grace and works then it is obvious that neither faith nor grace are considered works by God. All other movements of humans either physical or mental are works. That would make baptism a work. That makes even love a work. (the greatest commandment in the law of Moses is Love... since Love is obeying the commandment in the law of Moses it is a work)

Please do not advocate positions contrary to the confessional basis of this particular forum. This forum is a safe-haven for Presbyterian folk. We are not going to debate views contrary to that which we hold dear. Please review the rules of this forum:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7423440/

If you want to argue views contrary to our confessional basis you are free to post them in one of the non-safe haven theology forums.

 

[JLR1300]

I can see how to edit stuff but not how to delete it.

 

[AMR]

I can see how to edit stuff but not how to delete it.

As it has been noted I would not worry about making edits. No one should be reporting the post given the discussion immediately following it.