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The questions of Babylon 5 ... where are you going?

MoreCoffee

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Babylon 5 was a popular TV sci-fi show a decade and a half ago that was a fairly coherent attempt to pit some philosophical ideas against one another. It did this by means of three questions which three different super-races posed for the lesser races (including humanity). The questions were
  • Who are you?
  • What do you want?
  • Where are you going?
The first was posed by the Vorlons who acted as lords of order and discipline.

The second was posed by the Shadows who acted as agents of chaos and evolution.

The third was posed by an individual, the only representative of his race, who acted as the eldest principle and deepest insight from which the Vorlons and Shadows had learned in their infancy.

If you didn't see the TV show then this thread will not be evocative but f you did it will and I wonder what responses it brings to your mind about your religion today?
 

NorrinRadd

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Thought-provoking.

The Vorlons and the Vorlon Question and the Shadows and the Shadow Question were pretty well developed in the series. I don't recall Lorien's question being fleshed out so well.

The Shadow Question -- "What do you want?" -- was easy to relate to the Shadow ideology of advancement via competition: Serve your self-interest. Those that do it best will advance; the rest will be weeded out.

The Vorlon Question -- "Who are you?" -- didn't make as much sense to me. It sounds like the focus is on one's fundamental identity -- which is not the same as desire, but no less self-centered. But the Vorlon ideology was advancement by cooperation and individual sacrifice.

Most of the "First Ones" had advanced to the point where they found it best to move "beyond the rim" of the Milky Way galaxy, whether to seek new challenges, or just to keep from interfering with the development of the increasing number of child races. The Vorlons and Shadows stayed behind specifically to "shepherd" the young races, initially a benevolent goal. They proactively contacted them and manipulated them, mostly in relatively subtle ways. Vorlons appeared as paternal angelic beings to the races they visited. It's unknown how the Shadows appeared to their charges, but they were regarded as gods. Meanwhile, Lorien neither traveled beyond the rim nor sought out the young races, but remained in strange environment beneath the surface of Z'ha'dum awaiting any who would eventually come to him.

Ultimately both the Vorlons and the Shadows proved to be poor shepherds, because each proved to be hypocritical, and more importantly, each came to be more interested in "winning" than in helping the young races. The Vorlons advocated cooperation and partnership, but in practice, they wanted the young races to cooperate with each other, but to be strictly obedient to them; they had a saying that "Some must be sacrificed if all are to be saved," but never had any intention that any VORLONS would be sacrificed. The Shadows advocated competition, but (naturally) found it necessary to create cooperative alliances to use against the Vorlon's races.

I'm not sure how this relates to my Xian views. JMS is an atheist, so while B5 is not disrespectful of Christianity, it surely does not treat the Christian God as "real." In B5, "the universe" seems to have some sort of consciousness. Lorien was apparently the First One of the First Ones. He considered the next several elder races to be both his younger siblings and his children. He was apparently immortal and ageless. The other First Ones had lifespans measured in many millennia, but may not have been immortal, and were more numerous than the single Lorien, but not nearly so numerous as any of the "child" races which often numbered in the billions or tens of billions.

It was at least implied that earth was one of the young races visited discreetly by the Vorlons, and that they were at least partially responsible for Christianity. They prepared humans to perceive them as celestial angelic beings, and to regard the Shadows as off-putting and demonic.

The Vorlon Question of "Who are you?" makes sense if it encourages us to consider who we are "in Christ," but that connotation is not at all apparent in B5. The Vorlon virtues of cooperation and self-sacrifice are consistent with Christianity, but the Vorlon insistence that the "children" be willing to make sacrifices while the "gods" remain aloof is not.

The Shadow philosophy of advancement by competition and conflict is easily recognizable in Darwinian "Nature red in tooth and claw," and far from Christian ideal. But the Shadow Question of "What do you want?" is not so clear-cut. It does hint at un-Christian selfishness, but Christianity does teach rest, joy, peace, needs met, prayers answered.
 
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MoreCoffee

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I think at times I've used Kosh quotes in my sig. I always liked, "The avalanche has started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote."
The Vorlon question is about self-knowledge such as Christian mystics as well as Buddhists and Hindus seek though the Christian approach is different and leads to self knowledge in the context of Christ. Does that help any?
 
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NorrinRadd

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The Vorlon question is about self-knowledge such as Christian mystics as well as Buddhists and Hindus seek though the Christian approach is different and leads to self knowledge in the context of Christ. Does that help any?

A little, but only a little. Still not easily apparent how it relates to Vorlon philosophy of cooperation and sacrifice.
 
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MoreCoffee

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A little, but only a little. Still not easily apparent how it relates to Vorlon philosophy of cooperation and sacrifice.
I suspect that cooperation and sacrifice are tools serving the philosophy of order and discipline.
 
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Thought-provoking.

The Vorlons and the Vorlon Question and the Shadows and the Shadow Question were pretty well developed in the series. I don't recall Lorien's question being fleshed out so well.

The Shadow Question -- "What do you want?" -- was easy to relate to the Shadow ideology of advancement via competition: Serve your self-interest. Those that do it best will advance; the rest will be weeded out.

The Vorlon Question -- "Who are you?" -- didn't make as much sense to me. It sounds like the focus is on one's fundamental identity -- which is not the same as desire, but no less self-centered. But the Vorlon ideology was advancement by cooperation and individual sacrifice.

Most of the "First Ones" had advanced to the point where they found it best to move "beyond the rim" of the Milky Way galaxy, whether to seek new challenges, or just to keep from interfering with the development of the increasing number of child races. The Vorlons and Shadows stayed behind specifically to "shepherd" the young races, initially a benevolent goal. They proactively contacted them and manipulated them, mostly in relatively subtle ways. Vorlons appeared as paternal angelic beings to the races they visited. It's unknown how the Shadows appeared to their charges, but they were regarded as gods. Meanwhile, Lorien neither traveled beyond the rim nor sought out the young races, but remained in strange environment beneath the surface of Z'ha'dum awaiting any who would eventually come to him.

Ultimately both the Vorlons and the Shadows proved to be poor shepherds, because each proved to be hypocritical, and more importantly, each came to be more interested in "winning" than in helping the young races. The Vorlons advocated cooperation and partnership, but in practice, they wanted the young races to cooperate with each other, but to be strictly obedient to them; they had a saying that "Some must be sacrificed if all are to be saved," but never had any intention that any VORLONS would be sacrificed. The Shadows advocated competition, but (naturally) found it necessary to create cooperative alliances to use against the Vorlon's races.

I'm not sure how this relates to my Xian views. JMS is an atheist, so while B5 is not disrespectful of Christianity, it surely does not treat the Christian God as "real." In B5, "the universe" seems to have some sort of consciousness.

Actually, if you compare the universe of Star Trek and Babylon 5, you'll see that JMS accepts that religion is part of human nature, so we'll still be religious in the 23rd Century. That's why Commander Sinclair had that long line of people of different beliefs for the ceremony to demonstrate the different religious beliefs of the various races on the station. We also see Ivanovah sitting Shiva and later celebrating Chanukah. Remember, too, the monks who come to live on the station as well as the pastors who snuck information to Sheridan after (spoiler alert! lol) B5 seceded from the Earth Alliance. Religion has always had a place on B5 and it's always been respectful.

Roddenberry eliminated virtually all traces of religion fro the universe of Star Trek. The only allusion to religion in TOS is in "Balance of Terror" where a chapel is shown on the Enterprise. By TNG, however, the very notion of religion in a scientifically advanced society is seen as a throwback.

As to the idea of the Universe being a living thing, the underlying basis for Minbari religion was an obvious nod to Carl Sagan. In a conversation with Captain Sheridan, Delenn shared a "great secret" about the universe, "We are star-stuff." Indeed, the atoms that make us up were fused in the heart of ancient, long dead stars (this, to me explains how God accomplished. "We are the universe made manifest, trying to figure itself out." Again, a nod to Sagan, who famously said that we are, "Startsuff, the ash of stellar alchemy...emerged into consciousness. We are a way for the cosmos to know itself."

Somehow, I doubt that Dr. Sagan thought of the cosmos as a living thing, rather it was meant as a way of telling his audience that we are a part of it all. We aren't separate from nature, rather we are a part of it. Given I accept the cosmological model (as a Catholic, it is permitted), I think it's a wonderful realization.

Lorien was apparently the First One of the First Ones. He considered the next several elder races to be both his younger siblings and his children. He was apparently immortal and ageless. The other First Ones had lifespans measured in many millennia, but may not have been immortal, and were more numerous than the single Lorien, but not nearly so numerous as any of the "child" races which often numbered in the billions or tens of billions.

It was at least implied that earth was one of the young races visited discreetly by the Vorlons, and that they were at least partially responsible for Christianity. They prepared humans to perceive them as celestial angelic beings, and to regard the Shadows as off-putting and demonic.

The Vorlon Question of "Who are you?" makes sense if it encourages us to consider who we are "in Christ," but that connotation is not at all apparent in B5. The Vorlon virtues of cooperation and self-sacrifice are consistent with Christianity, but the Vorlon insistence that the "children" be willing to make sacrifices while the "gods" remain aloof is not.

The Shadow philosophy of advancement by competition and conflict is easily recognizable in Darwinian "Nature red in tooth and claw," and far from Christian ideal. But the Shadow Question of "What do you want?" is not so clear-cut. It does hint at un-Christian selfishness, but Christianity does teach rest, joy, peace, needs met, prayers answered.
If you read some of the books, especially the Psi Corps Trilogy, you find out that the Vorlons were responsible for the development of telepaths in the B5 universe. It would also imply that they would be the "ancient aliens" we hear so much about. I don't think the Shadows took interest in us until later, but then again, the Grim Reaper and all those wars in our history...
 
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NorrinRadd

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Actually, if you compare the universe of Star Trek and Babylon 5, you'll see that JMS accepts that religion is part of human nature, so we'll still be religious in the 23rd Century. That's why Commander Sinclair had that long line of people of different beliefs for the ceremony to demonstrate the different religious beliefs of the various races on the station. We also see Ivanovah sitting Shiva and later celebrating Chanukah. Remember, too, the monks who come to live on the station as well as the pastors who snuck information to Sheridan after (spoiler alert! lol) B5 seceded from the Earth Alliance. Religion has always had a place on B5 and it's always been respectful.

I seem to recall a scene from sometime in the "future" (w.r.t. the main B5 series) where a priest or monk (played by, IIRC, the guy who played the Zakdorn Strategema master "Kolrami" or whatever on TNG) was some kind of caretaker of advanced knowledge that had been lost, and was gradually releasing it.


Roddenberry eliminated virtually all traces of religion fro the universe of Star Trek. The only allusion to religion in TOS is in "Balance of Terror" where a chapel is shown on the Enterprise.

That's not quite true. The "Children of the Sun (Son)" in "Bread and Circuses" are treated quite respectfully, and in "Who Mourns for Adonais?" Kirk expresses monotheistic sentiments (though in the latter case I suspect a bit of deference to network "Standards and Practices" of the time).


By TNG, however, the very notion of religion in a scientifically advanced society is seen as a throwback.

Agreed. But later the "prophets" in DS9 seemed to intentionally challenge that.

As to the idea of the Universe being a living thing, the underlying basis for Minbari religion was an obvious nod to Carl Sagan. In a conversation with Captain Sheridan, Delenn shared a "great secret" about the universe, "We are star-stuff." Indeed, the atoms that make us up were fused in the heart of ancient, long dead stars (this, to me explains how God accomplished. "We are the universe made manifest, trying to figure itself out." Again, a nod to Sagan, who famously said that we are, "Startsuff, the ash of stellar alchemy...emerged into consciousness. We are a way for the cosmos to know itself."

Somehow, I doubt that Dr. Sagan thought of the cosmos as a living thing, rather it was meant as a way of telling his audience that we are a part of it all. We aren't separate from nature, rather we are a part of it. Given I accept the cosmological model (as a Catholic, it is permitted), I think it's a wonderful realization.

I thought I recalled a few B5 conversations about "the universe" doing certain things (as if with something passing for conscious intent), and about it not being accidental happenstance that the younger races were simultaneously more numerous, varied, and prolific, but much shorter-lived, compared to the First Ones.


If you read some of the books, especially the Psi Corps Trilogy, you find out that the Vorlons were responsible for the development of telepaths in the B5 universe. It would also imply that they would be the "ancient aliens" we hear so much about. I don't think the Shadows took interest in us until later, but then again, the Grim Reaper and all those wars in our history...

I haven't read the books, but did read or hear that SOMEWHERE about telepaths. The "noble" Vorlons, creating a class of each species to serve as cannon-fodder against Shadow machines, which are disrupted by telepaths.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Babylon 5 was a popular TV sci-fi show a decade and a half ago that was a fairly coherent attempt to pit some philosophical ideas against one another. It did this by means of three questions which three different super-races posed for the lesser races (including humanity). The questions were
  • Who are you?
  • What do you want?
  • Where are you going?
If you didn't see the TV show then this thread will not be evocative but f you did it will and I wonder what responses it brings to your mind about your religion today?
Not sure what ya mean by "your religion", since we all are, supposedly, Christians here. I kinda liked the series myself... :groupray:

Isa 43:19
Behold, I will do a new thing, Now it shall spring forth; Shall you not know it?
I will even make a road in the wilderness And rivers in the desert.

Act 25:19
“but had some questions against him about their own religion
and about a certain Jesus, who had died, whom Paul affirmed to be alive.
Act 26:5
“They knew me from the first, if they were willing to testify,
that according to the strictest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee


Duran Duran New Religion - YouTube
 
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actionsub

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I haven't read the books, but did read or hear that SOMEWHERE about telepaths. The "noble" Vorlons, creating a class of each species to serve as cannon-fodder against Shadow machines, which are disrupted by telepaths.

In an episode in Season 5, it was revealed that the Vorlons basically created telepaths.
 
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Inkfingers

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If you didn't see the TV show then this thread will not be evocative

I did, and thoroughly enjoyed it at the time.

Then I came to understand its real message and found it far more disturbing.

but if you did it will and I wonder what responses it brings to your mind about your religion today?

It was a re-telling of Pagan religion - The station looked like a tower, the tower of Babel (which JMS admitted was the UN in space, with the same function), in which the purpose was for humans and similar aliens (it was very 'multicultural') to become gods in their own right and through their own power (salvation through works)....
 
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NorrinRadd

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I did, and thoroughly enjoyed it at the time.

Then I came to understand its real message and found it far more disturbing.



It was a re-telling of Pagan religion - The station looked like a tower, the tower of Babel (which JMS admitted was the UN in space, with the same function), in which the purpose was for humans and similar aliens (it was very 'multicultural') to become gods in their own right and through their own power (salvation through works)....

Interesting.

Still my favorite sci-fi series ever. No contest. I wish the spin-off hadn't crapped out. Loved the technomages.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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NorrinRadd

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Back when I was growing up, the "Lost in Space" series was da best! Dr Smith was hilarious! :thumbsup:

Lost In Space (TV Series Trailer). - YouTube

"Smith. Smith. You've put us on the other side of the Galaxy!!!".

LOST IN SPACE: The Return - YouTube


.

I liked that show when I was young and dumb. Later, when I wised up, I realized how good it could have been (the initial B&W episodes), and how much it changed for the worse when they imitated the then-popular Batman series, and made it psychedelic, campy, and comedic.

At least Bill Mumy somewhat redeemed himself with his role as Lenier on B5, and his one-shot appearance on DS9.

And of course with this:

http://youtu.be/cTpUVAcvWfU
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus
Back when I was growing up, the "Lost in Space" series was da best! Dr Smith was hilarious! :thumbsup:

"Smith. Smith. You've put us on the other side of the Galaxy!!!".

I liked that show when I was young and dumb. Later, when I wised up, I realized how good it could have been (the initial B&W episodes), and how much it changed for the worse when they imitated the then-popular Batman series, and made it psychedelic, campy, and comedic.

At least Bill Mumy somewhat redeemed himself with his role as Lenier on B5, and his one-shot appearance on DS9.

And of course with this:

Fish Heads - Barnes and Barnes (1979) - YouTube
I din't know that! Kewl! :thumbsup:


.
 
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Inkfingers

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So, basically, the B5 questions are pagan?

Not particularly (although the Shadow's one is - there is no place in it for "not my will but thy will be done"). It's just that I later realised that the whole series was pagan religion in the way I have described.

On a side issue....Bill Mumy is 60. How to make you feel REALLY old, when you realise that Lennier is nearly ready for his pension.
 
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