explain John 8:51

[lynna]

John 8:51 is as clear as water -- I tell you the truth, whoever obeys my teachings will NEVER die. In the N. T. Jesus seems to imply that we may die physically but our spirits live on -- the flesh is like a shell and the spirit is the real self. Why do Adventist believe that when a person dies, he awaits the resurrection and immediately doesn't go to heaven. Did'nt Jesus change the nature of death? If you are going to quote me Bible verses make sure they are from the N.T. -- legally its the newer testament that counts.

 

[k4c]

John 8:51 is as clear as water -- I tell you the truth, whoever obeys my teachings will NEVER die. In the N. T. Jesus seems to imply that we may die physically but our spirits live on -- the flesh is like a shell and the spirit is the real self. Why do Adventist believe that when a person dies, he awaits the resurrection and immediately doesn't go to heaven. Did'nt Jesus change the nature of death? If you are going to quote me Bible verses make sure they are from the N.T. -- legally its the newer testament that counts.

Jesus equates the first death with sleep but the second death is the one we are warned to avoid. Everyone dies the first death but only the nonbelieving unfaithful will die the second death.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

John 8:51 is as clear as water -- I tell you the truth, whoever obeys my teachings will NEVER die. In the N. T. Jesus seems to imply that we may die physically but our spirits live on -- the flesh is like a shell and the spirit is the real self. Why do Adventist believe that when a person dies, he awaits the resurrection and immediately doesn't go to heaven. Did'nt Jesus change the nature of death? If you are going to quote me Bible verses make sure they are from the N.T. -- legally its the newer testament that counts.

Lynna, any verse can be clear as water if taken by itself and not compared to what the Word says about the matter in it's entirety.

Here are some other verses on the subject for you to consider...

We do not possess immortality, only God does...

1 Tim 6:15,16
Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

We obtain our immortality at Christs second coming...

1 Cor 15:51-54
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Jesus Himself refered to death as sleep...

John 11:11-14
These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Jesus refers to the first death as sleep for it is not a permanent state... we will all be resurrected to face eternal life or destruction... this second death for the unrighteous is the second death (permanent).

John 5:18,29
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

I hope this helps....

 

[Cribstyl]

John 8:51 is as clear as water -- I tell you the truth, whoever obeys my teachings will NEVER die. In the N. T. Jesus seems to imply that we may die physically but our spirits live on -- the flesh is like a shell and the spirit is the real self.

Why do Adventist believe that when a person dies, he awaits the resurrection and immediately doesn't go to heaven.

Did'nt Jesus change the nature of death?

If you are going to quote me Bible verses make sure they are from the N.T. -- legally its the newer testament that counts.

Great post lynna....... You've presented Christ clearly saying "whoever obeys my teaching will never die."
You've explained that verse in certian terms, that the flesh of the man is like a shell but the spirit is the actual man that lives on.

Your 2 questions have not been addressed by these men so far. (good luck with that)

 

[k4c]

Great post lynna....... You've presented Christ clearly saying "whoever obeys my teaching will never die."
You've explained that verse in certian terms, that the flesh of the man is like a shell but the spirit is the actual man that lives on.

Your 2 questions have not been addressed by these men so far. (good luck with that)

Great post, if you're into Greek mythology.

We find Paul comforting those who lost loved ones by assuring them of the resurrection of the dead. If their loved ones are in heaven already then why the need to be comforted in beliving in the resurrection of the dead? Why the need for a resurrection in the first place? Is God not able to completely bring the righteous to heaven now?

Why resurrect the wicked only to judge them and then throw them back into the fiery hell you teach if they're already there and why pull the righteous out of heaven only to put them back into the grave only to resurrect them and bring them to heaven again? This is Babylon (confusion) at it's best.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I see el scoffer supremo is off his restrictions....

Even though clear evidence from the Word was given to the state of the dead, that doesn't stop ol' Crib from rejecting it... for no reason, I might add.

 

[Cribstyl]

Great post, if you're into Greek mythology.

We find Paul comforting those who lost loved ones by assuring them of the resurrection of the dead. If their loved ones are in heaven already then why the need to be comforted in beliving in the resurrection of the dead? Why the need for a resurrection in the first place? Is God not able to completely bring the righteous to heaven now?

Why resurrect the wicked only to judge them and then throw them back into the fiery hell you teach if they're already there and why pull the righteous out of heaven only to put them back into the grave only to resurrect them and bring them to heaven again? This is Babylon (confusion) at it's best.

Obviously you have no reasonable response to a new forum member's questions about What Jesus said or the 2 questions asked.
What does all this have to do with what Jesus meant in John 8:51?

 

[Cribstyl]

I see el scoffer supremo is off his restrictions....

Even though clear evidence from the Word was given to the state of the dead, that doesn't stop ol' Crib from rejecting it... for no reason, I might add.

I took a self imposed break because my job requires more of my time these days. I know you missed me.
Your personal attacks is your trademark, it should make you see how keeping the sabbath does not make a person a true disciple of Jesus Christ, love does.

You need to take your own advice when you said....any verse can be clear as water if taken by itself and not compared to what the Word says about the matter in it's entirety..

The OP was presenting what Jesus said as wisdom to consider, but you're confusing Paul's statements to make your comments appear as true.



A. In 1Tim 6:15,16 Paul is explaining some of God's attributes... and that only God is incapable of death, you've highjacked the words to fit your commentary.
Truth is, God has given immortality to angels and also the breathe that He breathed into man, made man a living being. The human spirit is eternal.

I wont comment further on the rest of that post because you dont answer questions or respect those who dont agree with you.

 

[k4c]

Obviously you have no reasonable response to a new forum member's questions about What Jesus said or the 2 questions asked.
What does all this have to do with what Jesus meant in John 8:51?

WOW! You did it again. You're getting pretty good at skirting truth...

 

[Cribstyl]

WOW! You did it again. You're getting pretty good at skirting truth...

Clearly, your response to the OP was just that.

What did Jesus teach?

Jhn 5:24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Jhn 10:28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
Jhn 11:26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Why all the venom?
It should be clear that soul sleep is not accepted by all Christians.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Clearly, your response to the OP was just that.

What did Jesus teach?

Jhn 5:24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Jhn 10:28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
Jhn 11:26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Why all the venom?
It should be clear that soul sleep is not accepted by all Christians.

John 5:24 does not contradict with soul sleep... we die, are judged while we sleep (IJ) and then rise into life eternal at the second coming.

The other two verses are speaking of the same thing, that those that are given eternal life by faith in Jesus do not suffer eternal death, as the wicked do. We all die the first death so it's obvious that jesus was not refering to this in John 11:26.


1 Cor 15:22,23
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

See, we are made alive at Christs second coming, not before, which agrees with...

1Thess 4:13-17
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

It should be clear that soul sleep is not accepted by all Christians.

Sadly, I know this to be true...

The result, is that men can be deceived in to spiritualism because of this erroneous belief. The Bible clearly states that the dead know not anything and have no conscience thoughts in death. The popular belief that our loved ones are watching over us is not Biblical but paganistic. All the heathens believed this lie.

 

[ElijahW]

That's what I call that understanding as well but does anyone know if there is a more official word to use for this understanding of Heaven?

Lynaa, our spirit doesn't continue to live on in heaven as we understand living. It exists eternally meaning it doesn't change or continue to grow. The spirit that gets laid down in death is exactly the same spirit that gets raised up in the Resurrection. The eternal life he speaks of is actual eternal life he considers possible, not an eternal afterlife in heaven. IMO at least.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Exactly Elijah...

We are not given a soul we are a soul.... check it out.

Gen 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

So, when we die, the breath of life goes from us and we become dust... in an inanimate, sleeping state till Christ calls us forward from the grave (hell).

The same Hebrew word used for mans soul is the same one used for the animals. Unless you believe animals have immortal souls that go directly to Heaven then the theory that we have an immortal soul is unfounded, Biblically.

 

[Deleteriousnonsense]

If a person dies the first death, and spends ten thousand years "asleep" and then avoids the second death by being resurrected into Paradise, it would be the same to that person as if they were immediately resurrected into Paradise, so I really don't see what all the fuss is about.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

I really don't see what all the fuss is about.

I don't either. The only thing I can figure is that soul sleep is required in order to substantiate SDA eschatology.

BFA

 

[David Conklin]

>The only thing I can figure is that soul sleep is required in order to substantiate SDA eschatology.

Except for non-SDA's who teach the same thing.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

If a person dies the first death, and spends ten thousand years "asleep" and then avoids the second death by being resurrected into Paradise, it would be the same to that person as if they were immediately resurrected into Paradise, so I really don't see what all the fuss is about.

To the person that has died, you are correct, the next thought they have, which will seem like a blink of an eye from death, will be either eternal resurrection or resurrection unto death.

The reason why it is important to those of us living to understand is two fold.

1) if we were given immortality then Satan would have been right in the garden when he told Eve that she would not surely die... Satan is a liar and this teaching down through the ages proves that he has deceived people into believing this lie.

2) the danger for people to be drawn into spiritualism of some kind if they believe that their dead friends and relatives are somehow in a spirit realm watching over us. If you believe this to be true and a spirit presents itself to you knowing only things that the dead person could know, then you will believe what this 'spirit' will tell you as you will believe it is your friend or relative. These spirits that do this are fallen angels and will lead you astray if you heed them.

 

[k4c]

To the person that has died, you are correct, the next thought they have, which will seem like a blink of an eye from death, will be either eternal resurrection or resurrection unto death.

The reason why it is important to those of us living to understand is two fold.

1) if we were given immortality then Satan would have been right in the garden when he told Eve that she would not surely die... Satan is a liar and this teaching down through the ages proves that he has deceived people into believing this lie.

2) the danger for people to be drawn into spiritualism of some kind if they believe that their dead friends and relatives are somehow in a spirit realm watching over us. If you believe this to be true and a spirit presents itself to you knowing only things that the dead person could know, then you will believe what this 'spirit' will tell you as you will believe it is your friend or relative. These spirits that do this are fallen angels and will lead you astray if you heed them.

It's like the appearing of Mary to the three children in Portugal I believe it was. It was at this appearing that, Mary, told the children to pray the rosery, which then went all around the world. These ritual prayers of repetition fly right in the face of God because God directly tells us not to repeat prayer over and over as though God will hear mindless ritual prayers of repetition.

 

[Deleteriousnonsense]

It's like the appearing of Mary to the three children in Portugal I believe it was. It was at this appearing that, Mary, told the children to pray the rosery, which then went all around the world. These ritual prayers of repetition fly right in the face of God because God directly tells us not to repeat prayer over and over as though God will hear mindless ritual prayers of repetition.

Are there no Saints in Heaven? Doesn't God hear all prayers?

Repeating the Hail Mary, Our Father, and Glory Be is for our sake, not God's or Mary's. The repetition in the decades and the counting beads are aids that help us stay focused on the real purpose of the chaplet: contemplation of the Rosary Mysteries that are taken directly from the Gospels and the Holy Tradition of the Church. Some people add the Fatima prayer, other's add other prayers. We offer this garland of roses to Mary for purposes of penance, instruction, and petition, so that we may grow in holiness. The rosary is not offered as worship.