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Homosexuality: Choice and/or genetic?

What do you think of the orgins of homosexuallity?

  • Choice

  • Genetic

  • Both


Results are only viewable after voting.
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Criada

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To BigBadWlf,
Tough, these minority ideas are dysfunctional perverted and error, the ideas should be discriminated against, if the minority see themselves as having their identities in error then the message is God has much better plans for them to live life to the full.

Maybe he has, but sometimes he's very reluctant to enable us to do so!
 
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BigBadWlf

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I think you might have some great things to say on this topic, but you are handling it very poorly. You can't just type "All available evidence suggests..." and not back it up with citations or at least some credible examples. Really? All available evidence? If I brought that kind of statement to my university prof he would have thrown me out of the classroom.
Wait wait wait. I am supposed to provide thousands of references to legitimately published studies (as if I haven’t done so already in a half dozen threads) in order to be “reasonable” but when I ask those voting for “choice” to provide any actual evidence all I get is the faint sound of crickets chirping?
 
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BigBadWlf

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To BigBadWlf,
No black people arent in any way dysfucntional, same sex relations are. Can you not tell the difference between a black person and a same sex act?
Minorities are minorities weather that minority is left-handed people, Muslims or Hispanics

Yet through history just about any minority has been labeled “dysfunctional perverted” and in “error” and that label backed up with the word of God. The minority being attacked changes but the message is always the same

 
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Wait wait wait. I am supposed to provide thousands of references to legitimately published studies (as if I haven’t done so already in a half dozen threads) in order to be “reasonable” but when I ask those voting for “choice” to provide any actual evidence all I get is the faint sound of crickets chirping?

Well, if you want to be taken seriously - the usual requirement is minimum one or two references, yes. Moreover, non-biased references are bound to receive more respect.

It seems part of your battle is against those who hold biblical interpretations as absolutes, but you are also speaking in absolutes when you state things like, "all available evidence suggests [insert your point here.]"

The idea that all evidence is in your favour could only hold true if there are no other studies documented contrary to your argument. Is that your claim?
 
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BigBadWlf

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Well, if you want to be taken seriously - the usual requirement is minimum one or two references, yes. Moreover, non-biased references are bound to receive more respect.

It seems part of your battle is against those who hold biblical interpretations as absolutes, but you are also speaking in absolutes when you state things like, "all available evidence suggests [insert your point here.]"

The idea that all evidence is in your favour could only hold true if there are no other studies documented contrary to your argument. Is that your claim?
There are thousands. Here are a couple pages.


Allen LS, Gorski RA. Sexual orientation and the size of the anterior commissure in the human brain. Proc Natl Acad Sci 1992

Berglund, J. and Pl Linstrom Brain response to putative pheromones in lesbian women. 2006

Bergman, J. The Geneitic Basis of Homosexuality JASA 2001

Blanchard R Fraternal birth order and the maternal immune hypothesis of male homosexuality Hormones and Behavior 2001

Blanchard, R.. Birth order and sibling sex ratio in homosexual versus heterosexual males and females. Ann. Rev. Sex Res. 1997

Blanchard, R., and Bogaert, A. F. Homosexuality in men and number of older brothers. Am. J. Psychiat. 1996

Blanchard, R., and Bogaert, A. F. (1997a). Additive effects of older brothers and homosexual brothers in the prediction of marriage and cohabitation. Behav. 1997

Bogaert, A. F.. Birth order and sexual orientation in women.
Behav. Neurosci. 111, 1997

Bogaert, A. F. (1998). Birth order and sibling sex ratio in homosexual
and heterosexual non-white men. Arch. Sex. Behav. 1998

Bogaert A. F. Biological versus nonbiological older brothers and men's sexual orientation PNAS 2006

Cooke, B.M. G. Tabibnia, and S. M. Breedlove A brain sexual dimorphism controlled by adult circulating androgens. PNAS 1999

Ellis E, Ames MA. Neurohormonal functioning and sexual orientation: a theory of homosexuality-heterosexuality. Psychol Bull 1987

Garcia-Falguras and D..F. Swabb A. A sex difference in the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus Brain 2008

Hamer, D. S Hu, V. Magnuson, N Hu, and A. Pattatucci A linkage between DNA markers on the X chromosome and male sexual orientation. Science 1993

Hegarty P. Maternalizing the Hypothalamus Psychology today 1997

Herbert J. Who do we think we are? The brain and gender identity Brian 2008

Hu, S.H. Patterns of Brain Activation during Visually Evoked Sexual Arousal Differ between Homosexual and Heterosexual Men. Am J of Neuroradiology 2008

Kinnunen LH, Moltz H, Metz J, et al. Differential brain activation in exclusively homosexual and heterosexual men produced by the selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor, fluoxetine. Brain Res 2004

Kranz F, Ishai A. Face perception is modulated by sexual preference. Curr Biol 2006

Lalumie`re, M. L., Blanchard, R., and Zucker, K. J. Sexual orientation and handedness in men and women: A meta-analysis.Psychol. Bull. 2000

LeVay, S. A difference in hypothalamic structure between heterosexuals and homosexual men. Science (1991)

McFadden, D. and E. G. Pasanen Comparison of the auditory systems of heterosexuals and homosexuals: Click-evoked otoacoustic emissions. PNAS 1998

Manning JT, Scutt D, Wilson J, et al. The ratio of 2nd to 4th digit length: a predictor of sperm numbers and concentrations of testosterone, luteinizing hormone and oestrogen. Hum Reprod 1998

Morris, J.A. K. L. Gobrogge, C. L. Jordan, and S. M. Breedlove Brain Aromatase ENdocrineology 2004

Puts, D. A. et al O brother, where art thou? The fraternal birth-order effect on male sexual orientation. PNAS 2006

Rahman Q, Wilson GD, Abrahams S. Sexual orientation related differences in spatial memory. J Int Neuropsychol Soc 2003

Robinson, S. J., and Manning, J. T. The ratio of 2nd to 4th digit length and male homosexuality. Evol. Hum. Behav. 2000.

Roselli. C. E., K. Larkin, J. A. Resko, J. N. Stellflug, and F. StormshakThe Volume of a Sexually Dimorphic Nucleus in the Ovine Medial Preoptic Area/Anterior Hypothalamus Varies with Sexual Partner Preference. Endocrinology 2004

Roselli, C.E., H. Stadelman, R. Reeve, C. V. Bishop, and F. Stormshak Sexually Dimorphic Nucleus of the Medial Preoptic Area Is Organized Prenatally by Testosterone 2007

Savic, I. Berglund and Pl Lindstrom Brain response to putative pheromones in homosexual men. PNAS 2005

Savic I, Lindström P. PET and MRI show differences in cerebral asymmetry and functional connectivity between homo- and heterosexual subjects. Proc Natl Acad Sci 2008

Swaab, D. F. Sexual orientation and its basis in brain structure and function PNAS 2008

Williams, T. J., Pepitone, M. E., Christensen, S. E., Cooke, B. M.,Huberman, A. D., Breedlove, N. J., Breedlove, T. J., Jordan, C. L.,and Breedlove, S. M. (2000). Finger-length ratios and sexual orientation.Nature 2000

Zucker, K. J., Green, R., Coates, S., Zuger, B., Cohen-Kettenis, P. T., Zecca, G. M., Lertora, V., Money, J., Hahn-Burke, S., Bradley, S. J., and Blanchard, R. Sibling sex ratio of boys with gender identity disorder. J. Child Psychol. Psychiat.1997








Now about comparable evidence for “choice”….? I’m ready for a chorus of crickets
 
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There are thousands. Here are a couple pages.

Now about comparable evidence for “choice”….? I’m ready for a chorus of crickets

You could copy and past the whole list you found, but it still doesn't add up to 'all available evidence.' Those are your words.

I quickly googled the words, "sexual orientation inborn" and in the first page of hits were references to research that counters your argument.

So, not all available evidence supports your claim. Some "research" supports your claim, and some does not.
In addition, just pasting in a list you found on someone else's site is not a compelling argument. Plenty of citations in that list are not directly related to your argument. And who are these people? What type of study? Are they just grad papers with statistics of survey results from a handful of test subjects?

I'm not taking sides in this debate, but I see big flaws in your argument.

And.... yeah -- you really need to use the bible in this forum if you want to prove a solid point.
 
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BigBadWlf

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You could copy and past the whole list you found, but it still doesn't add up to 'all available evidence.' Those are your words.
Actually it is a selection from a list I keep on the topic. Thank you very much

I quickly googled the words, "sexual orientation inborn" and in the first page of hits were references to research that counters your argument.
Since you didn’t actually post any of these I am guessing you don’t want to be taken seriously
 
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William777

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Actually it is a selection from a list I keep on the topic. Thank you very much


Since you didn’t actually post any of these I am guessing you don’t want to be taken seriously

Wolf,

I think you are misunderstanding the point he is addressing. You have made an absolute statement therefore a single instance contrary to your statement makes your assumption invalid. Howerver, this statement would be more fitting: All available evidence to you suggest....

I'll continue later...

Respectfully,

William
 
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BigBadWlf

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Wolf,

I think you are misunderstanding the point he is addressing. You have made an absolute statement therefore a single instance contrary to your statement makes your assumption invalid. Howerver, this statement would be more fitting: All available evidence to you suggest....

I'll continue later...

Respectfully,

William
I also noted that royaltybyadoption claimed to have countering evidence…but for some reason didn’t feel like posting it.

So lets have this singular example.

Please present a legitimately published peer reviewed scientific study from, oh say the last 20 years that provides demonstrable evidence that homosexuality is a choice.

Again I await the crickets
 
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Dude,
You are now entering troll territory with your posting style. Why should I do your homework for you? You started it and didn't back it up.

This is not my argument. I'm starting to doubt your intentions on this topic. However this page is from the first page of google results. The forums won't let me post a proper link to the page so I this is it in it's entirety:
Latest Twin Study Confirms
Genetic Contribution To SSA Is Minor


As in previous studies, identical twins usually differ for SSA.
By N.E. Whitehead, Ph.D.​
Twin studies are favorites of mine because of the potential light they throw on the origins of same-sex attractions (SSA). The latest one (Santtila et al., 2008) is three times larger than any previous study - in fact, larger than all the rest put together.
Does this latest study teach us something new? Quick answer: No. It confirms the best recent studies, which tell us that genetic factors are minor; non-genetic factors are major.
The paper's title is "Potential for Homosexual Response is Prevalent and Genetic." This implies to the average reader that homosexuality is sometimes hidden, but commonly occurring, and that it is predominantly genetic. But we shall see this title is not representative of the study's actual findings.
This is the fifth systematically sampled twin study to look at SSA independently in men and women. Of the four previous studies, two were from Australia (Buhrich, Bailey & Martin, 1991; Bailey, Dunne & Martin, 2000), and two were from the USA (Hershberger, 1997; Bearman & Bruckner, 2002).
This latest study is from Finland. Using the very centralized records typical of Scandinavian states, they assembled a large, genuinely random sample of twins (6,001 female individuals and 3,152 males) for a study that was primarily on aggression. With that constraint, they were permitted only two questions about SSA: "What same-sex sexual contact have you had in the last year?" and (in essence) "If there was no prospect of anyone finding out, and you were sexually propositioned by someone of the same sex you liked, what would be your chances of accepting?"
Before we go further, let's address one small difficulty. Unfortunately, different studies use different measures for SSA. Some ask for total number of partners - this one asked only the frequency of contacts in the last year. Other surveys ask the frequency of same-sex fantasy. This one asked respondents to fantasize (perhaps for the first time) about what sexual contact with a same-sex partner might be like. The authors then say this is measuring "potential homosexuality," but you and I would probably conclude that such a measure is fairly clearly indicating something other than SSA. This measure obviously would include bisexual people, and casts the net so wide, that it also could well be testing for something like novelty, curiosity, or sensation-seeking, rather than actual sexual orientation. In this study, 32.8% of men and 65.4% of women replied "yes" to that question about fantasy, in contrast to 3.1% of men and 1.2% of women who described themselves as actually homosexually active.
The results were:
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]
Activity[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Genetics[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Shared Environment[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Nonshared Environment[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Men[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]27% (2.7-38)[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]0% (0-18)[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]73% (62-85)[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Women[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]16% (8.3-24)[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]0% (0-3.6)[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]84% (76-91)[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]
Potential[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] [/FONT] [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] [/FONT] [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] [/FONT] [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Men[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]37% (12-47)[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]0% (0-19)[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]63% (53-73)[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Women[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]46% (32-52)[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]0% (0-11)[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]54% (48-60)[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Table 1. Relative influence of various factors for the Santtila and Sandnabba (2008) data. Error ranges in parentheses are the 95% (2 sigma) error range.[/FONT]
The table shows that the estimated genetic contributions are a few tens of percent, but that the error ranges (in brackets) are quite large and this could possibly mean the genetic contribution is zero. This is exactly the same as has been found previously. They also show that the non-shared environmental contribution (i.e. environmental factors particular to the individual) greatly predominate - in other words they are the largest group of causes of SSA.
Are genetic contribution results of say 27% important? No. In the twin studies world the influence would be classified as weak to modest. And any influence is indirect - it is likely to be something like an innate tendency to be very sensitive to the opinions of others. However, even this weak or modest genetic contribution is probably greatly overstated.
Twin study researchers usually involve the siblings of identical twin subjects as much as possible, because they are genetically related to the same degree as fraternal twins, hence like substitute fraternal twins. This sibling/twin comparison is very interesting because it tests for any special twin environment. For example, did the twins influence each other to be SSA? Or did the genetic similarity between the identical twins and siblings cause some lesser SSA in the siblings also? In this case, the siblings were tested along with the identical twins and fraternal twins and the results were meaningless-- i.e., they did not yield results compatible with genetic influence in SSA. Although the authors do not specify exactly what the problem was, it must have been severe ("...attempts at fitting uni-variate and bi-variate extended-family scripts for categorical data were not successful...." which is scientese for the explanation I give above). This would usually be enough to destroy a study of genetic influences, but rather incredibly, the authors simply and blithely ignore the siblings for the rest of the paper, and use the twins only, to present a calculated genetic influence. Rather, no genetic influence at all is shown when all the data are included.
This is an unusual problem for the method, so the authors with the general approval of the scientific community, including the referees of the paper, implicitly say "Well, there is an inconsistency here that will take years to sort out but in the interim here is what the results would be using the traditional methods if we ignore this." This is some use to the researchers, though laymen may shake their heads at the procedure.
As usual in these studies, family upbringing ("shared environment") was consistent with a zero percentage influence, as shown in the table, but I contend again as I have in previous talks and articles that many family factors are hidden in the non-shared environment contribution, and highly individualistic and important to the people concerned. Thus for example, the influence of a distant father may well be critical for many individuals - but might not affect an identical twin at all.
The results, by my calculations, do in fact, reinforce one conclusion drawn from previous studies. That is, if one identical twin--male or female--has SSA, the chances are only about 10% that the co-twin also has it. In other words, identical twins usually differ for SSA.
In spite of the above-cited criticisms, some useful points emerge from the study. The sample is probably the least biased so far. The authors believe prenatal hormonal theories as a cause of SSA do not hold up, because they should lead to greater similarity between identical twins, not less similarity as we see above. Also, we see a continuation of an already-established trend -- the more recent and better-conducted the study, the smaller the detected genetic influence on SSA. In the meantime, the reader should continue to assume that genetic causal effects on SSA are minor, and that other, very individualistic factors predominate.
Reference List
Bailey, J.M., Dunne, M.P., & Martin, N.G. (2000). Genetic and Environmental influences on sexual orientation and its correlates in an Australian twin sample. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 78, 524-536.
Bearman, P.S., & Bruckner, H. (2002). Opposite-sex twins and adolescent same-sex attraction. American Journal of Sociology, 107, 1179-1205.
Buhrich, N., Bailey, J.M., & Martin, N.G. (1991). Sexual orientation, sexual identity, and sex-dimorphic behaviors in male twins. Behavior Genetics, 21, 75-96.
Hershberger, S.L. (1997). A twin registry study of male and female sexual orientation. Journal of Sex Research, 34, 212-222.
Santtila, P., Sandnabba, N.K., Harlaar, N., Varjonen, M., Alanko, K., & von der Pahlen, B. (2008). Potential for homosexual response is prevalent and genetic. Biological Psychology, 77(1), 102-105.






If I had your passion for the topic, it would be easy to pull more.


And your lack of proper citations speaks for itself.
 
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MajorMonogram

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You could copy and past the whole list you found, but it still doesn't add up to 'all available evidence.' Those are your words.

I quickly googled the words, "sexual orientation inborn" and in the first page of hits were references to research that counters your argument.

So, not all available evidence supports your claim. Some "research" supports your claim, and some does not.
In addition, just pasting in a list you found on someone else's site is not a compelling argument. Plenty of citations in that list are not directly related to your argument. And who are these people? What type of study? Are they just grad papers with statistics of survey results from a handful of test subjects?
From the tone of your reply I am left with the idea that you really didn’t want any references to be given despite the fact you suggested that references be posted.
So a long list of references was posted and for some reason that prompted you to go on what amounts to a personal attack. I notice that you didn’t show that any of the references provided were inadequate or being wrongly represented rather you complained about the fact thath the list (which you wanted) was posted in the first place.
And then,….

And.... yeah -- you really need to use the bible in this forum if you want to prove a solid point.
Then you change your mind suggesting that despite the fact we are called to reason together Christians should ignore science, or more accurately we should ignore science that doesn’t produce the results we want. That is hardly conductive to reasoning.
 
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From the tone of your reply I am left with the idea that you really didn’t want any references to be given despite the fact you suggested that references be posted.
So a long list of references was posted and for some reason that prompted you to go on what amounts to a personal attack. I notice that you didn’t show that any of the references provided were inadequate or being wrongly represented rather you complained about the fact thath the list (which you wanted) was posted in the first place.
And then,….

A list of studies doesn't prove anything.

My point is - if you are making a claim, then back up that point with a credible source.
His long list doesn't back up any claim he made. There are no details to demonstrate anything.

That has been my point from the beginning.

Sorry, but if someone continually ignores portions of a reply because it negates their stance, then that is considered trolling.

Then you change your mind suggesting that despite the fact we are called to reason together Christians should ignore science, or more accurately we should ignore science that doesn’t produce the results we want. That is hardly conductive to reasoning.
No minds were changed. Are you saying the bible is ignoring science?

It looks as though you are ignoring the reference I provided, which is more recent and negates much of previous research on the subject.
 
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MajorMonogram

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Dude,
You are now entering troll territory with your posting style. Why should I do your homework for you? You started it and didn't back it up.

This is not my argument. I'm starting to doubt your intentions on this topic. However this page is from the first page of google results. The forums won't let me post a proper link to the page so I this is it in it's entirety:
Latest Twin Study Confirms
Genetic Contribution To SSA Is Minor


As in previous studies, identical twins usually differ for SSA.


By N.E. Whitehead, Ph.D.​


*snip*
I believe you should speak to your above mentioned college professor about the dangers of using secondary sources.
First off there is the questionable status of Dr. Whithead. But of more concern is what he is reporting in this essay does not match the data and conclusions published by Santtila, Sandnabb, Harlaar, Varjonen, Alanko and von der Pahlen


And your lack of proper citations speaks for itself.
I must note that you cut and pasted this essay without referencing its source
 
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Wolf,

I think you are misunderstanding the point he is addressing. You have made an absolute statement therefore a single instance contrary to your statement makes your assumption invalid.

That is exactly the point I'm making.

But I'm beginning to suspect that truth is not the goal with this member.
 
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MajorMonogram

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Well, if you want to be taken seriously - the usual requirement is minimum one or two references, yes. Moreover, non-biased references are bound to receive more respect.
And.... yeah -- you really need to use the bible in this forum if you want to prove a solid point.

So which is it?
 
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I must note that you cut and pasted this essay without referencing its source

The source is internet based. This forum does not allow me to post links.

You are twisting this out of context.

BigBadWlf claimed "All available evidence suggests..." and I was merely pointing out that "No, not all available evidence suggests that."

Anyone can easily bust up the credibility of another persons study. If I had the inclination, I could go through the studies listed by BigBadWlf. However, he has not given me any way of seeing the content of those studies.

Listen dude, don't get me tangled up in your debate about homosexuality and genetics. I don't really care one way or the other. God loves all of us equally.

My only point was that it sounded like BigBadWlf had some good points, but it got lost in his sloppy debating style, and therefore the people who need to hear it the most will just tune him out.

A shame.
 
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