Hello.
Some time ago I was leafing through a King James Version of the Bible when I noticed something that seemed odd in the first chapter of the Book of Revelation. In verse 13 we read that the Apostle John turned to see the one who spoke to him, describing Him like this...
"And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle."
Now I know that the word "paps" is olde English for female breasts, but when checking further, in other versions of the Bible, I saw that they had rendered this word as "chest", not a pair of properly-formed female mammary glands, but an ordinary, flat masculine chest. This prompted further investigation on my part.
My Research on This Issue.
My first port of call was here...
www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/rev1.pdf
Interestingly enough, the relevant word in the 1st century Greek was "mastos", implying the feminine, not the masculine. Mastos is the root word for a number of modern-day medical terms, like mastectomy and mastitis.
http://wordinfo.info/words/index/info/view_unit/1259/?letter=a&page=1&spage=1&s=mastectomy
Further checking into Revelation showed that in Chapter 15, verse 6 John describes a group of angels dressed in a similar way to the Son of man.
"And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles."
Going back to the Greek I found that here the word "breasts" was written differently.
www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/rev15.pdf
Here the operative word describing the angels is "stethos", not "mastos".
As far as I understand, stethos is the root word for stethoscope, the instrument doctors use to listen to the action of the heart and lungs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stethoscope
Looking at the Book of Luke in the OnlineInterlinear I found that Luke 18:13 referred to a man, "smoting his breast" (using the word stethos)
and Luke 23:48 described the crowd witnessing the crucifixion as, "smoting their breasts" (again stethos). Compare and contrast this with Luke 23:29, where Jesus turns to the women following Him, saying...
"Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. For, behold, the days are coming, in which they shall say, Blessed [are] the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck."
Once again, "paps' is written as mastos. Therefore, the conclusions I reach from my current research are as follows...
1. Both Luke and John use the words "stethos" and "mastos" in the same way, the first to describe flat masculine chests or chests in a plural sense and the second to specifically describe female mammary glands. I believe that I am on safe ground in terms of context and meaning here.
2. Therefore, since John use stethos to speak about the seven angels, he saw they were definitely male, having no proper female breasts. If he had seen these he would surely have used the word mastos.
3. In Rev. 1:13 John describes the Son of man as having a girdle drawn over His "paps", which are proper female breasts. By this, I draw the implication that this person is being described by John in both masculine and feminine terms.
A Qualification and an Apology.
I'll be the first to admit that my understanding of Koine (1st century Greek) is very rudimentary, so if I've made some horrible error of translation, context, syntax or grammar, please accept my apologies in advance. Also, some folks may find what I'm writing about here distasteful.
After all, it seems as if I'm saying that the God who appeared to the Apostle John was some kind of male/female fusion. Please understand that I mean no offence by this. I am simply trying to understand what I've read and I've tried to present my current understanding in as plain a way as possible.
Once again, apologies in advance if this posting has caused any upset.
My Questions on This Matter.
Now, I turn to the members of C.F. for help, asking the following...
1. Is my methodology correct? Have I come to the correct conclusion about the masculine/feminine appearance of the Son of man, using the examples found in Luke?
2. Knowing that Revelation is rich in metaphor, am I being too literal here?
Is there some metaphorical meaning in what John is saying?
3. Or, if this is actually what John saw, what does this mean? What does it tell us about the nature of God?
4. Does anyone know of anything in the Old Testament or the rest of the Bible that can throw any further light upon Rev. 1:13?
5. Why is it that some Bible's translate "mastos" as chest in 1:13 when, as far as I can tell, they should use the word, "breasts", which seems to be more accurate?
Any help would be much appreciated.
Finally...
This is by far the most complex, lengthy and involved set of questions I've presented, here at C.F. So, if some aspect of what I've asked needs further clarification, I'll be happy to provide it.
Thank you,
Walter.
Some time ago I was leafing through a King James Version of the Bible when I noticed something that seemed odd in the first chapter of the Book of Revelation. In verse 13 we read that the Apostle John turned to see the one who spoke to him, describing Him like this...
"And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle."
Now I know that the word "paps" is olde English for female breasts, but when checking further, in other versions of the Bible, I saw that they had rendered this word as "chest", not a pair of properly-formed female mammary glands, but an ordinary, flat masculine chest. This prompted further investigation on my part.
My Research on This Issue.
My first port of call was here...
www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/rev1.pdf
Interestingly enough, the relevant word in the 1st century Greek was "mastos", implying the feminine, not the masculine. Mastos is the root word for a number of modern-day medical terms, like mastectomy and mastitis.
http://wordinfo.info/words/index/info/view_unit/1259/?letter=a&page=1&spage=1&s=mastectomy
Further checking into Revelation showed that in Chapter 15, verse 6 John describes a group of angels dressed in a similar way to the Son of man.
"And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles."
Going back to the Greek I found that here the word "breasts" was written differently.
www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/rev15.pdf
Here the operative word describing the angels is "stethos", not "mastos".
As far as I understand, stethos is the root word for stethoscope, the instrument doctors use to listen to the action of the heart and lungs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stethoscope
Looking at the Book of Luke in the OnlineInterlinear I found that Luke 18:13 referred to a man, "smoting his breast" (using the word stethos)
and Luke 23:48 described the crowd witnessing the crucifixion as, "smoting their breasts" (again stethos). Compare and contrast this with Luke 23:29, where Jesus turns to the women following Him, saying...
"Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. For, behold, the days are coming, in which they shall say, Blessed [are] the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck."
Once again, "paps' is written as mastos. Therefore, the conclusions I reach from my current research are as follows...
1. Both Luke and John use the words "stethos" and "mastos" in the same way, the first to describe flat masculine chests or chests in a plural sense and the second to specifically describe female mammary glands. I believe that I am on safe ground in terms of context and meaning here.
2. Therefore, since John use stethos to speak about the seven angels, he saw they were definitely male, having no proper female breasts. If he had seen these he would surely have used the word mastos.
3. In Rev. 1:13 John describes the Son of man as having a girdle drawn over His "paps", which are proper female breasts. By this, I draw the implication that this person is being described by John in both masculine and feminine terms.
A Qualification and an Apology.
I'll be the first to admit that my understanding of Koine (1st century Greek) is very rudimentary, so if I've made some horrible error of translation, context, syntax or grammar, please accept my apologies in advance. Also, some folks may find what I'm writing about here distasteful.
After all, it seems as if I'm saying that the God who appeared to the Apostle John was some kind of male/female fusion. Please understand that I mean no offence by this. I am simply trying to understand what I've read and I've tried to present my current understanding in as plain a way as possible.
Once again, apologies in advance if this posting has caused any upset.
My Questions on This Matter.
Now, I turn to the members of C.F. for help, asking the following...
1. Is my methodology correct? Have I come to the correct conclusion about the masculine/feminine appearance of the Son of man, using the examples found in Luke?
2. Knowing that Revelation is rich in metaphor, am I being too literal here?
Is there some metaphorical meaning in what John is saying?
3. Or, if this is actually what John saw, what does this mean? What does it tell us about the nature of God?
4. Does anyone know of anything in the Old Testament or the rest of the Bible that can throw any further light upon Rev. 1:13?
5. Why is it that some Bible's translate "mastos" as chest in 1:13 when, as far as I can tell, they should use the word, "breasts", which seems to be more accurate?
Any help would be much appreciated.
Finally...
This is by far the most complex, lengthy and involved set of questions I've presented, here at C.F. So, if some aspect of what I've asked needs further clarification, I'll be happy to provide it.
Thank you,
Walter.
