Did Mary, Mother of Jesus, have other children? (2)

[Jerrysch]

If these were perceived as the children of Joseph they would be described as brothers and sisters of Jesus, also perceived as Joseph's son, irrespective of whether Mary was their mother or not.

Matthew witnesses to a fact not a perception in; Mt12: 46While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him.

So then we have Matthew's witness as inspired Biblical text of this fact.

 

[Jerrysch]

There are several elements that proves that Mary had other children within her life.

1. Mary was bethroed to and married Joseph.
2. Their marriage lasted at least 30 years. To say otherwise is to say that Mary either divorced Joseph or simply lived with him which is absurd.
3. Joseph followed the angel's instructions which was to keep Mary a virgin until the birth of Christ, not afterwards.
4. Mary was a human wife of Joseph. She would have wanted to be a good wife.
5.Mary would have followed the Lord's guidelines for marriage. We see in scripture where she followed the law.
6. The is a plethora of verses that depict Jesus brothers and sisters. The verses would not make sense contextually if the meaning of brother and sister was substituted with a meaning unrelated to blood brothers and sisters.
7. There is no biblical evidence that Jesus brothers and sisters were not from Mary, Jesus's mother and wife of Joseph.
8. There is prophetic verses from Psalm 69 that depict Mary as being the Mother of the children that Jesus had become an alien to.
9. There is no biblical evidence that Mary remained chaste, on the contrary, verses point to a normal married life with Joseph.

When you consider the preponderance of the biblical evidence, we can only conclude that Mary was the mother of Jesus's brothers and sisters. That Mary was the earthly and faithful wife of Joseph for 30 years. And that her life with Joseph was a blessed one which included God's gift of children.

Well said and well crafted.

 

[Jerrysch]

t
so question here (i didn't come up with the question on my own) but why do we sexualize Mary? even women in general? we assume that because someone gets married, it is implied that they will no longer be a virgin. it's a very modern idea, and i don't understand why their marriage implies that they had sex. assuming that Mary would have wanted to be a good wife is probably correct, she did want to be a good wife, because that is what God called wives to be, that is what marriage was for, but being a good wife doesn't imply having sex with her spouse. being a good wife implies honor, being faithful (not having sex with other people), and loyal to the husband.

Interesting opinion, but I fail to see why we should throw out what is celarly taught in the Bible in favor of what you have posted. The Bible indicates that Jesus had brothers and sisters, you suggest that we should abandon what the Bible teaches in favor of , well what ever you said. Why can't you just accept what the Bible says and go on from there? Why is this poor woman's sex life being held up, let's face the cold cruel fact people have sex, and believe it or not if they didn't ... we wouldn't be here. You may not know it but having children is a blessing, why do people in their imaginations deny this blessing to Mary? So get over it Mary had children even two daughters, who more than likely didn't remain virgins either after they were married.

 

[Jerrysch]

St. John of Kronstadt lived celibately with his wife. how absurd i guess.

What does that have to do with the topic? The Bible says that Jesus had brothers and sisters, therefore Mary had other children.

 

[Jerrysch]

The idea is that the Gospel writer is saying what other's said.."Is this not the carpenter's son"? The writer knew He was not Joseph's son, but the people thought He was. So they also assumed that Joseph's children would be blood siblings of Jesus..the writer is telling what happened, not what was fact..

Yet he did state the fact here; Mt 12: 46While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him.

Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit Matthew indicated that Jesus had brothers.

 

[Jerrysch]

You see no where in Scripture where Jesus was special? Honestly, what Scripture do you read? Or does the Protestant Bible leave anything to do with the Blessed Virgin?

Let's see, we have..

"Hail Mary, full of Grace"

"Blessed are you among woman"

"Every generation will call me blessed" (except the Protestant generation I guess)..

And we have the sound of her voice, making John the Baptist leap in his mother's womb..

And lastly, we have the Commandment to honor our mother and father. Jesus being perfect and sinless, obeyed every Commandment to a T, so this would mean He honored His mother..name one other person on earth who was honored by Jesus Christ...

Do you need a brick to hit you to see that she was not an ordinary woman?

What does that have to do with the topic of this thread?

 

[Jerrysch]

Because your opinion is based on assumptions of a mistranslation..you assume, that because they were married (which they weren't anyway) they had sex. You assume, their life was normal, when it was far from that..you assume that the Greek speaking Church, and those who came shortly after the Apostles did not know anything...you assume, Jospeh being a righteous man, would want to defile the womb God Himself came out of..you assume someone else could enter the world way God did, which would be against what God said...

I assume none of these things I present the clear teaching of the Bible and you deny it. All the evidence point to the conclusion that Jesus had brothers and sister by way of his mother Mary. You are seeking to "muddy the waters" on this very clear issue. You have not presented one significant reason why we should abandon what the Bible says in favor of this "opinion" you present. When the whole council of the Scriptures is consulted the truth is known, Mary had other children.

 

[Jerrysch]

Jesus never said Joseph wasn't His father either..what is your point?


..

My point is that Jesus indicated that He had brother and sisters.And since Jesus knew that Joseph wasn't his father and He knew that Mary was His mother and He also knew that if a person was a brother or sister, they must share a human parent, then He was witnessing to the fact that Mary had other children.

 

[Jerrysch]

Do you not understand it was not a person..but a whole bunch of people. Billions in fact. Not to mention that those who also taught this in the early Church, were biblical scholar's and theologians who had intense knowledge of Scripture, and studied and knew it inside out, and the original language to boot? .

Is this then the best argument you can make? It seems very clear what the truth of the matter is from the Bible. Quite remarkable that billions could not see it (are you sure that it was billions?) . I can't speak for them, I doubt that it was that important of an issue. I do know that Matthew and Luke under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit gave ample evidence that Mary had other children than Jesus, these other billion whom you suggested, they were not writing by way of inspiration of the Holy Spirit. I think I will side against the billion and side with God. I think He is smarter than any billion. (are you sure? Billions? how many zeros is that anyway?)

 

[Jerrysch]

Your comparison is of no merit. And also, there are 1 billion Catholics, approx 500 million EOC in the world today..add to that the Coptic Church, and the Anglicans, not to mention a few Protestant denoms here and there that believe she was ever virgin...so that brings the number of those who believe she was EV, alive today, at over 1 billion. Now go back for 2000 years, would you not say that there have been billions who believed she was EV?
.

There is but one voice that matters and that is of the Holy Spirit who testified in the Scripture, so it is your billions against the word of God, sorry you loose, God wins.

BTW Billion=
1000000000, that is a lot of people

 

[Jerrysch]

Your comparison is of no merit. And also, there are 1 billion Catholics, approx 500 million EOC in the world today..add to that the Coptic Church, and the Anglicans, not to mention a few Protestant denoms here and there that believe she was ever virgin...so that brings the number of those who believe she was EV, alive today, at over 1 billion. Now go back for 2000 years, would you not say that there have been billions who believed she was EV?

Now onto your comparision, because I was just waiting for someone to say this..you brought up muslims. Now if the majority of the world were Muslim (which it is not), then them being in the majority would not neccasarily make them right. Why? Because this is just a belief in something, they are not interpreting something. With the belief that Mary was EV, this belief comes from interpretation of Scripture, not just of a belief of it. So therefore, when it comes to interpreting something, majority would be right. When it comes to just believing something, majority may not be right. Not to mention the fact, that alot of the billions who believed she was, are people who were Greek, and can interpret the original text. You also have in that billions, those who came directly after the Apostles, and/or were taught directly by them..

And like it has been said 1000 times before adelphoi does not imply they were blood brother's, and Scripture NEVER says she had any other children..so you and the other's, are trying to get it to say what YOU want it to say...going against 2000 years of teaching and interpretation..

Actually the notion is imported into the text, the text clearly indicates that Mary had other children. Even the US catholic bishops in their New American Bible support what I have stated, if you missed the quotes and you want them I will re post them.

 

[mophed20]

jerry, do you know what an idiom is? (regarding the scripture you and everyone else keep flashing on the discussion board; i believe matthew 25:...can't remember the verse off hand...)

 

[mophed20]

sorry, i was waaaay off! haha. matt. 12:46!!! i thought i memorized the address.

 

[Jerrysch]

Your comparison is of no merit. And also, there are 1 billion Catholics, approx 500 million EOC in the world today..add to that the Coptic Church, and the Anglicans, not to mention a few Protestant denoms here and there that believe she was ever virgin...so that brings the number of those who believe she was EV, alive today, at over 1 billion. Now go back for 2000 years, would you not say that there have been billions who believed she was EV?

Now onto your comparision, because I was just waiting for someone to say this..you brought up muslims. Now if the majority of the world were Muslim (which it is not), then them being in the majority would not neccasarily make them right. Why? Because this is just a belief in something, they are not interpreting something. With the belief that Mary was EV, this belief comes from interpretation of Scripture, not just of a belief of it. So therefore, when it comes to interpreting something, majority would be right. When it comes to just believing something, majority may not be right. Not to mention the fact, that alot of the billions who believed she was, are people who were Greek, and can interpret the original text. You also have in that billions, those who came directly after the Apostles, and/or were taught directly by them..

And like it has been said 1000 times before adelphoi does not imply they were blood brother's, and Scripture NEVER says she had any other children..so you and the other's, are trying to get it to say what YOU want it to say...going against 2000 years of teaching and interpretation..

I and others have presented what the Bible indicates you sare coming here and trying to tell us that it doesn't mean what it clearly says, and without, I might add , one single logical reason. Even the RC "Scholars" indicated that Jesus had brothers and sisters;

http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew12.htm

http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/acts/acts1.htm

John 7

http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/john/john7.htm

http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/mark/mark3.htm

http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/luke/luke8.htm

Seems as if the US Catholic Bishops don't agree with you either. so I guess at least that is 1 billion - 2?

 

[Jerrysch]

sorry, i was waaaay off! haha. matt. 12:46!!! i thought i memorized the address.

What are you trying to say?

 

[mophed20]

well, besides the fact that post meant nothing, i was correcting myself from my last post--i referred to the verse many people have been pulling out of their toolbelts (matthew 12:46)--because i got the original guess wrong. (that was a really round about way for me to say that).

so what about my query?

 

[repentant]

What does that have to do with the topic of this thread?

Did you happen to look at what I quoted...

I also noticed I said "Jesus" instead of Mary..should be Mary.

 

[repentant]

I assume none of these things I present the clear teaching of the Bible and you deny it. All the evidence point to the conclusion that Jesus had brothers and sister by way of his mother Mary. You are seeking to "muddy the waters" on this very clear issue. You have not presented one significant reason why we should abandon what the Bible says in favor of this "opinion" you present. When the whole council of the Scriptures is consulted the truth is known, Mary had other children.

Like I said, you are using a translation, and not the original text. You also assume that because it say's Jesus had brother's, they were Mary's children, allthough Scripture NEVER say's that, not even a hint of it..you also ignore the fact the adelphois, does not mean blood brother, which is proven by Lot and Abraham being called brother's, and Jesus calling His Disciples His brother's..you also ignore the ancient Church father's who knew the original language, and used the original text, and determined what has been believed by the Church all along..that she was always a virgin.

 

[repentant]

Is this then the best argument you can make? It seems very clear what the truth of the matter is from the Bible. Quite remarkable that billions could not see it (are you sure that it was billions?) . I can't speak for them, I doubt that it was that important of an issue. I do know that Matthew and Luke under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit gave ample evidence that Mary had other children than Jesus, these other billion whom you suggested, they were not writing by way of inspiration of the Holy Spirit. I think I will side against the billion and side with God. I think He is smarter than any billion. (are you sure? Billions? how many zeros is that anyway?)

First of all there are over 1.5 billion today that believe she was EV, not go back 2000 years, how many you think that is..?

None of the Gospel writer's ever say's she had children. You, like I said, are using a fallibale mistranslation of Scripture, instead of the original, which is what the Church has always used..once you figure out that the BIBLE WAS NOT WRITTEN IN ENGLISH, maybe you'll understand something..

 

[repentant]

Actually the notion is imported into the text, the text clearly indicates that Mary had other children. Even the US catholic bishops in their New American Bible support what I have stated, if you missed the quotes and you want them I will re post them.

There is not one word in the entire Scripture that says she had other children, you and other's are ADDING to it by saying she did. At least have the courtesy, if you don't believe she was EV for whatever reason of your OWN OPINION, to say you DON'T KNOW, because SCRIPTURE DOES NOT SAY IT...