You don’t have a soul; you are a soul?

[CoreyD]

The difficulty with summarizing the term soul as being "closely identified" and "even equating" with the term "man" is that it presupposes the Platonic/Hellenistic viewpoint. At least that's the idea I'm left with.

The summary seems to suggest that man "has" a separate entity within himself called "soul", rather than man, the whole man "being" or "is" soul. And these two different ideas are really not compatible and yield vastly different interpretations of the bible.

Yes, true. The immortal soul concept, has cause quite a lot of confusion.

All types of mischief comes about when asserting man "has" a soul, particularly when asserting man has an "immortal soul".

This becomes even more pronounced through the various bible translations of the Hebrew word נפשׁ "Nephesh" and it's corresponding Greek word ψυχή "psuchē". Most translators, and the translations they produce, start with the underlying Greek/Hellenistic premise that man "has" a soul. And, it becomes next to impossible to think differently without holding the bible translation with one hand and a lexicon concordance with the other.

Anyway, it's an interesting discussion.

If persons used a good Bible translation and even researched the Hebrew and Greek expressions, they would have most of their confusion removed - provided they are humble - teachable.
When we read the Bible, minus philosophical and religious doctrine, we might realize that soul in man does not involve a separate entity within.

For example, Leviticus 17:11 reads:
Webster's Bible Translation
For the soul (nephesh) of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar, to make an atonement for your souls (nephesh): for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul (nephesh).

1 John 3:16
New King James Version
By this we know love, because He laid down His soul (psuché) for us. And we also ought to lay down our souls (psuché) for the brethren

James 5:20
Berean Standard Bible
consider this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul (psuché) from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

These are just a few scriptures that show the soul is the life we have, and what is more, they show that the soul is not immortal, but actually dies, as Ezekiel 18:4 says. Our life ceases to exist.

 

[CoreyD]

I posted this just in time. Must be the spirit was guiding me.

 

[tonychanyt]

The soul is eternal,

verse?

 

[Grip Docility]

verse?

Ecclesiastes 12:7, Ecclesiastes 3:20-21, Isaiah 57:16, Hebrews 12:9, Matthew 10:28, Revelation 6:9, Philippians 1:23, 2 Corinthians 5:8, 2 Timothy 4:6, Jonah 2:2

I hope this assists.

 

[Grip Docility]

verse?

Also, 1 Corinthians 15:35-58 goes into very specific detail on this matter.

Again, I hope this assists.

 

[Grip Docility]

verse?

Quick and easy cross referenced verses based on Matthew 10:28 Link to explain the only One that can destroy the soul

 

[CoreyD]

Quick and easy cross referenced verses based on Matthew 10:28 Link to explain the only One that can destroy the soul

So the soul is not eternal then.

Did you quote earlier that all flesh with the breath of life died, and did you not say that all flesh are souls?
So souls can drown then, right - die some death, even by sword, right?

 

[CoreyD]

Per chance there is some confusion @Grip Docility, let me clarify.
You agreed that God breathed the breath of life in Adam after creating him, and Adam became a living soul. Adam is the soul, correct?
Adam died, yes. Adam, the soul died, correct?

 

[Grip Docility]

So the soul is not eternal then.

Did you quote earlier that all flesh with the breath of life died, and did you not say that all flesh are souls?
So souls can drown then, right - die some death, even by sword, right?

This is my direct quote from post #40
The soul is eternal, that is bestowed by God. Only God’s Essence is Infinite.

Satan can kill the Flesh, but only YHWH can uncreate or destroy what YHWH, alone created.

I specified that Only God can Kill the eternal soul. The infinite, clearly has power over the eternal.

 

[tonychanyt]

Ecclesiastes 12:7, Ecclesiastes 3:20-21, Isaiah 57:16, Hebrews 12:9, Matthew 10:28, Revelation 6:9, Philippians 1:23, 2 Corinthians 5:8, 2 Timothy 4:6, Jonah 2:2

Thanks for the referenced. This is how to do referencing in a scholarly manner:

1. Display and indent the quoted text.
2. Selectively bold the relevant keywords that are important to your point. There is no need to bold the entire sentence. Have a laser-sharp focus.
3. Be concise and precise to the point. No need to quote the whole paragraph.

I do this for others who read my posts. It is a standard high-school scholarship. If you practice this, I guarantee it will sharpen your analytical thinking. In any case, no one is required to do it.

 

[Grip Docility]

Thanks for the referenced. This is how to do referencing in a scholarly manner:

1. Display and indent the quoted text.
2. Selectively bold the relevant keywords that are important to your point. There is no need to bold the entire sentence. Have a laser-sharp focus.
3. Be concise and precise to the point. No need to quote the whole paragraph.

I do this for others who read my posts. It is a standard high-school scholarship. If you practice this, I guarantee it will sharpen your analytical thinking. In any case, no one is required to do it.

Sometimes, I speak in reference to many scriptures, without citing the many scriptures to express larger ideas.

It does my heart well, when the verses or passages are asked for.

 

[Grip Docility]

Per chance there is some confusion @Grip Docility, let me clarify.
You agreed that God breathed the breath of life in Adam after creating him, and Adam became a living soul. Adam is the soul, correct?
Adam died, yes. Adam, the soul died, correct?

Incorrect. Adams soul went to Sheol. We know this by Hebrews 11 and Jonah 2:2. The Bosom of Abraham is the safe place within Sheol. Luke 16:22-23

Now, it must be noted that the word “Hades” is the Hellenistic way of teaching about Sheol. It is Jesus Who revealed that there was a safe place within Sheol.

This story is told before Christ Died, therefore, souls that believed in Christ had not been released to heaven, yet. We have Peters (1 Peter 3:18-20) writings to know the exact moment that Sheol was accessed by Christ and then Christ led the Captive, Captive. Ephesians 4:8

 

[CoreyD]

I specified that Only God can Kill the eternal soul.

Yes, you did.

The Bible specifically says the soul can die by other means.
Genesis 19:18-22
Genesis 21:28-31
Exodus 19:30

...by being struck with a piece of iron, a stone, or stones, a stick...
Numbers 35:11-16; Judges 16:30

...etc.

The infinite, clearly has power over the eternal.

I'm not sure what that means.

 

[CoreyD]

Incorrect. Adams soul went to Sheol. We know this by Hebrews 11 and Jonah 2:2. The Bosom of Abraham is the safe place within Sheol. Luke 16:22-23

Now, it must be noted that the word “Hades” is the Hellenistic way of teaching about Sheol. It is Jesus Who revealed that there was a safe place within Sheol.

This story is told before Christ Died, therefore, souls that believed in Christ had not been released to heaven, yet. We have Peters (1 Peter 3:18-20) writings to know the exact moment that Sheol was accessed by Christ and then Christ led the Captive, Captive. Ephesians 4:8

So Adam has a soul?
So you believe we are not only souls but we have a soul?
I'm a little confused now. Do we have a soul? You said no, but now you say we do.
Can you help me? What do you believe?

 

[Grip Docility]

Yes, you did.

The Bible specifically says the soul can die by other means.
Genesis 19:18-22
Genesis 21:28-31
Exodus 19:30

...by being struck with a piece of iron, a stone, or stones, a stick...
Numbers 35:11-16; Judges 16:30

...etc.


I'm not sure what that means.

There are two deaths. Hebrews 2:14 refers to the first death type of death. (The dust eater type of death) Genesis 3:14

Matthew 10:28 refers to what is theologically referred to as the second death…(Rev 21:8) and is debated over as either 1 of 3 outcomes “annihilation”, “Purgatory”, “Eternal Conscious Torment”

I’m on my phone, so my dialogue is brief. I do appreciate your discussion and respect your input.

 

[Grip Docility]

So Adam has a soul?
So you believe we are not only souls but we have a soul?
I'm a little confused now. Do we have a soul? You said no, but now you say we do.
Can you help me? What do you believe?

Certainly…

We are comprised of Body, Heart and Soul… or as 1 Thessalonians 5:23 states… Body, Soul and Spirit.

In the Thessalonians instance,
Body equals Dust, chemicals, grey matter, etc.

Soul would equate to Feelings, Emotions, Desires, Drives, Personality

Spirit refers to what I was interchangeably calling the soul, as common vernacular identifies the part of man that is his essence as the soul.

To best enunciate Spirit in the manner Thessalonians equates it… and I had been interchangeably using the term “soul”, I’ll quote these verses (Matthew 14:26-27)

People have become much more “skeptical” of supernatural beliefs, in this age. But, in Jesus time, the Term Ghost or Spirit was understood to be a legitimate thing.

 

[CoreyD]

There are two deaths. Hebrews 2:14 refers to the first death type of death. (The dust eater type of death)

Matthew 10:28 refers to what is theologically referred to as the second death…(Rev 21:8) and is debated over as either 1 of 3 outcomes “annihilation”, “Purgatory”, “Eternal Conscious Torment”

I don't want to assume, or cause any confusion, but when you say types of death, I'm not sure what you mean, because I know the Bible speaks of physical death, and spiritual death. Matthew 8:22
Those are two types.

The Bible also speaks of death from sin - Romans 5:12, and that is not what Hebrews 2:14 refers to, because Jesus was sinless, and his death was not due to sin passed on from Adam.
Then there is the second death, which is neither by sin, nor like Jesus sacrificial death, but eternal destruction by God against the wicked. Revelation 20:14, 15

So, with this understanding, what types are you referring to?

I’m on my phone, so my dialogue is brief. I do appreciate your discussion and respect your input.

No problem.
So long as I can understand you clearly, that's fine.
I appreciate talking to you, and hearing your input as well.

Certainly…

We are comprised of Body, Heart and Soul… or as 1 Thessalonians 5:23 states… Body, Soul and Spirit.

In the Thessalonians instance,
Body equals Dust, chemicals, grey matter, etc.

Soul would equate to Feelings, Emotions, Desires, Drives, Personality

Spirit refers to what I was interchangeably calling the soul, as common vernacular identifies the part of man that is his essence as the soul.

To best enunciate Spirit in the manner Thessalonians equates it… and I had been interchangeably using the term “soul”, I’ll quote these verses (Matthew 14:26-27)

People have become much more “skeptical” of supernatural beliefs, in this age. But, in Jesus time, the Term Ghost or Spirit was understood to be a legitimate thing.

So, to clarify...
Adam became a living soul at Genesis 2:7, and according to you, God did not breath any soul into Adam.
So when did Adam get this soul in him, and where in the Bible can I read this?

I'm glad to see you accept that "Soul would equate to Feelings, Emotions, Desires, Drives, Personality".
Would you also say, life?

I don't understand this.

Spirit refers to what I was interchangeably calling the soul, as common vernacular identifies the part of man that is his essence as the soul.

Where does it come from, and what does it mean.

 

[Grip Docility]

I don't want to assume, or cause any confusion, but when you say types of death, I'm not sure what you mean, because I know the Bible speaks of physical death, and spiritual death. Matthew 8:22

We are going to take spiritual death off the table, for the sake of this discussion, because that would add confusion to this discussion.

So, with this understanding, what types are you referring to?

I referred to Hebrews 2:14 to accentuate the Devil "Having the Power of Death"... but Love that you saw the Jesus part, instead. The Devil can Kill the flesh and nothing more (Matthew 10:28) We will simplify this and call it, getting run over, shot, falling off of the Grand Canyon, type of death. We will label that Type 1 death. (For discussions sake)

I referred to Matthew 10:28 to show that God alone can destroy the human Soul... and in that verse's context He cites the "end times" Lake of fire. We will label that Type 2 death. (For discussions sake)

So, to clarify...
Adam became a living soul at Genesis 2:7, and according to you, God did not breath any soul into Adam.

Earlier, I stated that God did breath His breath into Adam. Nothing has changed in reference to that statement, except maybe the complication of discussing the state of the "dead/people that have returned to dust" in addition to this already complex matter.

So when did Adam get this soul in him, and where in the Bible can I read this?

When God breathed His breath into the formed dust of earth.

I'm glad to see you accept that "Soul would equate to Feelings, Emotions, Desires, Drives, Personality".
Would you also say, life?

In the Hebrew, the word "Soul" is described as the very essence that does not go away, upon death. In the Greek, the Word Spirit is more closely identified as that portion that does not go away, upon death. So, equating "Life" with the soul, from how I believe you understand it, would mean that the "Soul" extinguishes like a light, upon death. This isn't how scripture explains the matter. Scripture suggests we are "sleeping", in the dust... but that is only a reference to the perception of the here and now. Per scripture of the Old testament, there is a realm of the dead where the souls of the "Dead/Heart Flatlined" sentiently exist. Jesus expounds on this matter and further adds that there is a Bosom of Abraham, where those accounted faithful, before His death, rested.

I, Grip, Said: "Spirit refers to what I was interchangeably calling the soul, as common vernacular identifies the part of man that is his essence as the soul."

To this, you replied.

I don't understand this. Where does it come from, and what does it mean.

Let's ensure we sync up in understanding what one another are expressing, before I answer this. I understand that this isn't a matter of "Do we Agree", but more of a matter of "How do you see that".

 

[Grip Docility]

What is the biblical difference between soul and spirit?

In Hebrew, we would say Soul and Heart. In Greek, it tends to come out more like Spirit and Soul.
So.... Hebrew flow of translation ..... Soul = Spirit, ..... Heart = Soul,
Greek flow of translation ........ Spirit = Soul, ....... Soul = Heart

 

[Zao is life]

King James Bible, Genesis 2:


Strong's Hebrew: 5315. נָ֫פֶשׁ (nephesh) — 754 Occurrences

It was a frequent word with many meanings. Brown-Driver-Briggs:

1. = that which breathes, the breathing substance or being
2. The נפשׁ becomes a living being: by God's breathing
3. a. a living being whose life resides in the blood
4. The נפשׁ as the essential of man stands for the man himself:
5. seat of the appetites
6. seat of emotions and passions
7. נפשׁ is used occasionally for mental acts

The soul is closely identified with the man, even equating to him.

ESV, Exodus 31:


Strong's Hebrew: 5315. נָ֫פֶשׁ (nephesh) — 754 Occurrences

It was a common word with many senses.

ESV, Job 30:


Job's inner soul is poured out.

ESV, Deuteronomy 12:


An animal has blood. The blood is the H5312-soul.

Matthew 16:


The Hebrew word for "soul" has multiple senses, as do the Greek and English words. The notion of the soul has multiple senses. In some sense, we are souls; in some sense, we have souls.

See also The SOUL that sins shall die

In the Greek manuscripts of the New Testament, the word psychḗ is used interchangeably in reference to the life, the mind and the soul of an individual | individuals.

Here are some examples:-

THE MIND
Philippians 1:27
"Only let your conduct be as becomes the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you, or else am absent, I may hear of your affairs,
that you stand fast in one spirit [pneûma], striving together with one mind [psychḗ] for the faith of the gospel."

Hebrews 12:3
"For consider Him who endured such contradiction of sinners against Himself, lest you be weary and faint in your minds [psychḗ]."

THE LIFE
Matthew 2:20
"..saying, Arise, and take the child and His mother. And go into the land of Israel. For the ones who sought the child's life [psychḗ] are dead."

Matthew 6:25
"Therefore I say to you, Do not be anxious for your life [psychḗ], what you shall eat, or what you shall drink; nor for your body, what you shall put on. Is not life [psychḗ] more than food, and the body more than clothing?"

Matthew 10:39
"He who finds his life [psychḗ] shall lose it. And he who loses his life [psychḗ] for My sake shall find it."

THE SOUL
Matthew 10:28
"And do not fear those who kill the body [sōma], but are not able to kill the soul [psychḗ]. But rather fear Him who can destroy both soul [psychḗ] and body [sōma] in géenna."

Matthew 12:18
"Behold My servant whom I have chosen; My Beloved, in whom My soul [psychḗ] is well pleased. I will put My Spirit [pneûma] on Him, and He shall declare judgment to the nations."

The above is a quote from Isaiah:

Isaiah 42:1
"Behold My Servant, whom I uphold; My Elect, in whom My soul [Hebrew: nephesh] delights. I have put My Spirit [Hebrew: rûach] on Him; He shall bring out judgment to the nations."

Psalm 16:10
"For You will not leave My soul [nephesh] in sheol; You will not allow Your Holy One to see corruption."

It was quoted by Christ's apostle Peter:

Acts 2:27
"You will not leave My soul [psychḗ] in Hades, nor will You allow Your holy One to see corruption."

Soma: The body.
Sarx: The flesh.
psychḗ: The soul.
Pneuma: Spirit.

We know that we do not have everlasting life until we are born of the Spirit of God, and Jesus said,

The wind [pneûma: Spirit] blows [pnéō: breathe hard, blow] where it decides, and you hear the sound thereof, but can not tell whence it comes, and where it goes: so is every one that is born of the Spirit [pneûma]. -- John 3:8

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living [chay] soul [nephesh]." -- Genesis 2:7

The question I ask myself is this: when Adam became a living soul, and when we are born of the spirit, is that when our spirit is born, making us living souls?

I don't know the answer, because when it comes to the word pneûma (spirit), it doesn't always seem clear whether the N.T is using the word in reference to soul, or to spirit, or interchangeably for soul and spirit:

Acts 2:27
"You will not leave My soul [psychḗ] in Hades, nor will You allow Your holy One to see corruption."

Luke 23:46
And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into your hands I commend my spirit: [pneuma] and having said thus, he gave up the ghost [ekpnéō].

Acts 7:59
"And they stoned Stephen, who was calling on God and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my [egṓ] spirit [pneuma]."

1 Corinthians 2:11
For what man knows the things of a man, save the spirit [pneuma] of man [ánthrōpos] which is in him? even so the things of God [O theós] knows no man, but the Spirit [pneuma] of God [O theós].

Luke 8:52-55
He said, Do not weep; she has not died, but sleeps. And they ridiculed, knowing that she was dead. And He put them all out. And He took her by the hand and called, saying, Little girl, arise! And her spirit [pneûma] came again, and she arose immediately. And He commanded that food be given her to eat."

Paul mentioned his spirit in the verse below:

"In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, with my [emós] spirit [pneûma]" -- 1 Corinthians 5:4

Paul mentions our spirits in the verses below:

"The Spirit [pneûma] Himself bears witness with our [egṓ] spirit [pneûma] that we are the children of God. " -- Romans 8:16

"The one united with the Lord is one spirit [pneûma] with him. Flee sexual immorality! Every sin a person commits is outside of the body - but the immoral person sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit [hágios pneûma] who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? For you are bought with a price.

Therefore glorify God in your body [sōma] and in your spirit [pneûma], which are God's." -- 1 Corinthians 6:17-20 (Netfree Version).

1 Thessalonians 5:23
"And may the God of peace Himself sanctify you, and may your whole body [soma], mind | soul [psychḗ] and spirit [pneuma] be preserved blameless to the coming of our Lord Jesus".

Hebrews 4:12
"For the word of God is living and powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing apart of soul [psychḗ] and spirit [pneuma], and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

----------------------------------------------​

So my mind leans towards the idea that the body = soma; and the mind / life / soul = psyche,

but only Adam had a spirit when God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and he became a living soul - but his spirit died when it / he was separated from God, resulting in his body dying also. Not sure, but it seems to me that his soul did not cease to exist (there was hades, and there was Abraham's bosom).

Now those who are born anew of the Spirit (who breathes where He desires) have a spirit again. That would mean that we are born body & soul into the world, but only those who are born of the Spirit are body, soul and spirit.

... BUT I'M SPECULATING, and when I think like this, I know I'm speculating.