- Jul 22, 2014
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As long as it is SUCCINCT. Sometimes a post NEEDS to be long. But not usually.Well, as long as a person's post is not always a long wall of text, I actually prefer a lengthy reply every now and then.
I am afraid Jason you have not responded to the points I made.
I imagine you would believe if you break Christ's commands you commit sin.
You appear to be saying you do not sin
I assume then you do not invite friends or family home for a meal, but rather the poor, lame and beggars so you may receive your reward in Heaven
I also assume if you have ever fasted you have made sure no one knows you have apart from your Father in Heaven
If anyone stole something of yours, you would offer them more besides with nothing but love in your heart for the person who stole from you
I could go on, but I will not. If I said I was perfect in the flesh I would be breaking the law of God by doing so. No one is perfect in the flesh on this earth. If they were there would have no need for Christ to die at calvary.
If this is any solace. I used to believe exactly as you do.
But it crushed me. I knew I could not live up to what I demanded of others. As the Pharisees quoted the literal letter to accuse Jesus of breaking the law, so I would ream off the literal letter to others, while in my heart knowing I could not live up to what I demanded of others.
I have seen both sides. I know far less sin is committed when we do not have a righteousness of obedience to the law. If that were not true, Paul was wrong in Rom 6:14
The letter kills but the spirit gives life
Well Jason I don't really think there is any point in continuing this discussion. If you are happy in the knowledge the pass mark if you like to be righteous before God under the law is 100% perfect obedience and that is the way you insist on going, I don't feel anything more can be accomplished by my words.Well, based on what you said so far, my guess is that you believe that when a believer sins, they sin on a physical level but they do not sin on a spiritual level. Is that correct? If that is the case, what should disturb you is that nowhere in Scripture does it ever teach this. In fact, it is the very heresy that John was trying to warn us about in his epistles (If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves - 1 John 1:8). For one, doing evil under any circumstance or excuse is wrong and evil. The moral compass God has placed in everyone tells us this. So God's Word is not going to defend a doctrine that will allow one to die in even one unrepentant sin that leads unto death with the thinking that they are saved. God is Holy and righteous. His Word cannot be used as a license to sin; And that is exactly what it would be if a believer died in even one unrepentant sin that would lead unto death (Such as murder, hate, lying, adultery, theft, etc.). Any believer who breaks Christ's or God's Commands commits sin.
"Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." (1 John 3:4).
"All unrighteousness is sin." (1 John 5:17).
"Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin." (John 8:34).
"He that commits sin is of the devil." (1 John 3:8).
"For everyone that does evil hates the light." (John 3:20).
And any believer who commits certain sins will not make it into heaven if they do not repent of those sins.
If one looks upon a woman in lust by which the offending eye(s) would cast one's entire body into hell (Matthew 5:28-30).
If one does not forgive, their Father will not forgive them (Matthew 6:15).
If one hates their brother, there is no eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15).
But if we confess and forsake our sins, there is mercy (Proverbs 28:13).
If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9).
If we walk in the light as he is in the light the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1:7).
This has nothing to do with me. It's what does the Word of God say. For how many were found righteous during Noah's time? Could you base a true religious belief based on looking at majority of others during that time? No. Most certainly not. Most of the world was wicked back then; And they were destroyed because of it. Granted, I am not claiming there is only one righteous family in existence today, The point is that faith in God's Word is not determined by what you see. Also, God did not give us impossible commands that we cannot keep. He gave these commands so that the LORD would do these things thru us (Ezekiel 36:26-27). For with man these things may seem impossible; But with God all things are possible (Matthew 19:26). Now, I want you to think about the context of the verse I just loosely quoted. Why did Jesus say this?
Well, whether I did or not, I would not reveal it to you either way because it would be boasting if I did, and or it would be your "Ah ha, I am correct" moment if I didn't. In either case, such a command was not given with consequences to one's soul in the afterlife. Only if one refuses to help the poor in any way in this life as a believer, then that would jeopardize their standing with the LORD.
I call myself an agent (i.e. secret agent) for a reason. I prefer doing many things in secret just before God (Where only the Father can see me) (Matthew 6:4, and Matthew 6:16).
That is what is Commanded me to do if such a thing were to happen.
It sounds like you are making an excuse that you are exempt in doing any of the LORD's Commands because of your belief. I assure you, that is not going to work with the LORD. Jesus said, why do you call me Lord, Lord and do not what I say? (Luke 6:26).
"And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it." (Matthew 7:26-27).
"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." (John 12:48).
No, you didn't. You never believed OSAS was an evil teaching from the very pits of hell itself that leads people into immorality and not righteousness. So you never believed as I do.
You are using your own personal experience as a spiritual guide. This is a wrong approach. We do not walk by sight but by faith; And that faith is in the Word of God by the Spirit (Which is our true spiritual guide). For nowhere did any of the apostles express a defeatest attitude in regards to obeying God and or living righteously. Just do a study on God's Commands, and a believer living righteously.
Works Salvationism (by the effort of man) is just as wrong as Antinomianism or refusing to believe that a believe can stop sinning. Both are two wrong extremes of each other.
As for Romans 6:14: It totally refutes what you believe. Here is the context.
"Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." (Romans 6:13-14).
Did you catch that? It says yield your members to righteousness unto God and not unrighteousness. It is talking about living holy and THEN it brings up Romans 6:14 that says sin shall not have dominion over you. That is the context. Meaning, the believer where sin does not have dominion over them is the one who has yielded their members unto the righteousness of God. They have stopped sinning and have become a slave to righteousness and not a slave to sin.
But what about the part about us not being under the Law?
Again, this is talking about the Law of Moses (More specifically the ceremonial and judicial laws within the Law of Moses). However, this is not talking about all forms of Law; Especially God's eternal moral laws.
Yes, the letter kills. That's the point. The Law of Moses was attached with death penalties if you disobeyed certain commands. But we are not under the Law of Moses. That does not mean there is no Law whatsoever. Christians are not anarchists or workers of lawlessness. God's people are good; They are not evil.
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Well Jason I don't really think there is any point in continuing this discussion. If you are happy in the knowledge the pass mark if you like to be righteous before God under the law is 100% perfect obedience and that is the way you insist on going, I don't feel anything more can be accomplished by my words.
There is no licence to sin of course under the new covenant if you have no righteousness before God under it of observing the law, for the fool proof mechanism to stop this happening is put in place at the point of conversion.
I still don't see what benefit you believe you have gained from Christ's death at calvary/how you believe he is your saviour from sin, for Gentiles were never under the mosaic law in the first place. Actually no one has ever been truly righteous under the law as David stated in Psalm 143:2. David lived under the old covenant but he trusted in God's unfailing love to attain Heaven, not a true righteousness he knew no one attained to.
Anyway, I wish you all the best in the future
God Bless
Christ's sacrifice is also important because that way He can also be our advocate or High Priest, too. For if we sin we have an advocate that we can go to so as to confess our sin (See 1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9; But this is based on the context of John saying to "that ye sin not."; Also see Proverbs 28:13).
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Who do you think does the righteousness in a believer's life? Is it ultimately God or the believer? Again, see Ezekiel 36:26-27.But you cannot sin Jason if you seek a righteousness before God of obedience to the law. The pass mark to be righteous before God under the law is 100% perfect obedience, no slip ups. That is why David said no one was righteous before God in Psalms 143:2
It is because of the verses you have quoted that you have a righteousness before God apart from the law. God has changed you into someone who wants to obey his laws in your heart.Who do you think does the righteousness in a believer's life? Is it ultimately God or the believer? Again, see Ezekiel 36:26-27.
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First, you're misunderstanding is that you take most of the appearances of the word "Law" in the New Testament as referring to all laws whatsoever. For you believe there are no laws without any consequences (in disobeying them) for the believer in the after-life contained in the New Testament.It is because of the verses you have quoted that you have a righteousness before God apart from the law. God has changed you into someone who wants to obey his laws in your heart.
Let me make clear. There is no disagreement between us that the misdeeds of the body should be put to death. There is no disagreement this happens by faith in Christ and relying on the holy Spirit within us to bring sanctification(victory over sin) The disagreement is in the law of righteousness. In other words, if you accept you have no righteousness before God under the law, then carry on as you are, seeking to put to death the misdeeds of the body by the truth you know, faith in Christ and the power of the holy Spirit within you. Then you will be seeking to obey out of love and gratitude for a free salvation, not in fear you will be cast into hell if you dont
The only way we can love God as he wants us to love him, and love others truly as ourself, is if we die to a law of righteousness, then seek to be sanctified according to the truth you know. Oh how I wish you would believe that is the truth.
I cannot believe you wrote the emboldened. You just quoted to me Ezekiel 36:26&276. This is what it states:First, you're misunderstanding is that you take most of the appearances of the word "Law" in the New Testament as referring to all laws whatsoever. For you believe there are no laws without any consequences (in disobeying them) for the believer in the after-life contained in the New Testament.
Second, I highly doubt God will side with a doctrine that will condone or allow a believer to die in unrepentant sin (that leads unto death or those sins that are very grievous or serious). If that was the case, it would be like a father allowing his son to steal and or commit murder. For even if the father did not engage in such activities himself, he would still be just as guilty for allowing his son to do evil and never bringing him to justice. To put it to you another way, you are saying that Christ paid the price for our sins so we can continue in sin or evil. I am sorry to inform you. The Bible does not support such a belief.
And please do not back peddle and say that your view supports believers in doing good. This is simply not the case if one says they can commit serious sin with no consequence to them in the after-life.
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Actually there is no point in remaining in this conversation is there. You are accusing me of stating what I have repeatedly said I am not stating. The biggest mistake in Christendom is believing Jesus only died for the sins you committed before you were saved. That firmly puts you under a law of righteousness, the NT stresses you have no law of righteousness.I cannot believe you wrote the emboldened. You just quoted to me Ezekiel 36:26&276. This is what it states:
I WILL give you a new heart da and put a new spirit in you; I WILLremove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I WILL put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
Now, if God has done that for the convert, how can they then use the knowledge they have no law of righteousness aas a licence to sin? It is not possible. You only get a righteousness apart from law because of the above in Ezekiel, it mirrors Hebrews 10:16&17
Sadly many refuse to accept they have a righteousness apart from the law for in their hearts they want some of the credit for attaining Heaven. All the glory is God's he will not share it with any man!
put it to you another way, you are saying that Christ paid the price for our sins so we can continue in sin or evil. I am sorry to inform you. The Bible does not support such a belief.
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As for Sinless Perfectionism: 1 Peter 4:1 says those that have suffered in the flesh have ceased (stopped) from sin. Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts.