Prayers for those who died outside the faith

[ArmyMatt]

IDK, Jesus' Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man seems to go against that. Why would Jesus affirm something that was a popular view at the time unless it was true?

the parable only mentions what those souls can or cannot do. nowhere does the rich man ask God to do anything. plus, Christ’s parable is about the state of souls prior to the resurrection.

 

[Lukaris]

An Orthodox poster in TAW years back who hasn’t been here for years ( can’t remember who) pointed out that Jesus prayed for Lazarus ( John 11:41-42 as per the whole account of Lazarus John 11:1-45).

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

the parable only mentions what those souls can or cannot do. nowhere does the rich man ask God to do anything. plus, Christ’s parable is about the state of souls prior to the resurrection.

I agree it is about prior to the resurrection. The way I see it, there was a general holding place for the dead prior to Christ. Then, until Christ returns, there is Hades and Abraham's Bosom. But the parable, to me, is meant to show a greater reality, not a lesser one, and the "chasm" is part of that.

 

[RileyG]

may her soul dwell with the blessed!

Thank you.

May God have mercy upon her and grant her eternal rest. Amen.

 

[RileyG]

Can I ask what from the Bible that is based on? AFAIK, there is no crossing over after you are dead.



Don't see any evidence of that. Regarding after they are dead, I mean.

The apostles were originally Jewish. Jews have been praying for the dead for thousands of years. The early Church prayed for the dead. St. Paul prayed for the dead in his epistles. It never went away until the Protestant Reformation.

God bless

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

St. Paul prayed for the dead in his epistles.

Would you mind showing me where?

The apostles were originally Jewish.

Not all of them. Timothy was an apostle and he was a Gentile.

 

[RileyG]

Would you mind showing me where?



Not all of them. Timothy was an apostle and he was a Gentile.

2 Timothy 1:16-18. ​

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

2 Timothy 1:16-18. ​

Doesn't say he was dead. "On that day" is just talking about the Day of the Lord. Many people Paul knew and worked with had fallen away. That's how I read it. Not that he was dead and Paul was praying for his soul in heaven.

Besides, someone is going to have to tell me how you decide whether you pray for someone and what dead person you pray to.

 

[RileyG]

Doesn't say he was dead. "On that day" is just talking about the Day of the Lord. Many people Paul knew and worked with had fallen away. That's how I read it. Not that he was dead and Paul was praying for his soul in heaven.

Besides, someone is going to have to tell me how you decide whether you pray for someone and what dead person you pray to.

According to the writings of the early Church, he was very much dead when Paul wrote that letter.
I don't think I was clear. You don't pray TO the dead. You pray to GOD *for* the dead.

Also, the understanding of the afterlife in Eastern Orthodoxy is very much different from the western view. No one is in heaven yet, they just experience a foretaste of heaven or a foretaste of hell, from what I understand. Therefore, prayers for the dead help them in ways only God knows.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

According to the writings of the early Church

How early are we talking here?

Also, the understanding of the afterlife in Eastern Orthodoxy is very much different from the western view. No one is in heaven yet, they just experience a foretaste of heaven or a foretaste of hell, from what I understand.

I believe pretty much the same thing. I even talked about it here:

The way I see it, there was a general holding place for the dead prior to Christ. Then, until Christ returns, there is Hades and Abraham's Bosom.

 

[RileyG]

How early are we talking here?



I believe pretty much the same thing. I even talked about it here:

Within the first few centuries, if not the first century after Christ.

Someone who is EO can answer that question better than me. I'm not entirely knowledgeable on early Church history.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

Someone who is EO can answer that question better than me. I'm not entirely knowledgeable on early Church history.

If someone wants to chime in here about this issue who knows church history well, I would appreciate it.

I generally think if something wasn't taught by the apostles themselves, then we can discard it even if it comes as early as the second century (infant baptism, for example).

 

[Lukaris]

I believe our understanding of prayer for the earthly departed traces to our overall understanding of prayer. The earthly departed are alive ( Matthew 22:32) and the Lord affirmed the resurrection with this statement so Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob are alive. Ezekiel’s prophecy in the valley of the dry bones ( Ezekiel 37:1-14) established our understanding of resurrection and is validly a prayer.

Baruch, secretary to the prophet Jeremiah, has the departed in the overall penitential prayer in Baruch 2:11-3:8 in verses 2:17 & 3:8.

BARUCH 2 KJV

Baruch 2 KJV: ...

m.kingjamesbibleonline.org

BARUCH 3 KJV

Baruch 3 KJV: ...

m.kingjamesbibleonline.org

Plus in Ruth 2:20 it is said the Lord has not forsaken His kindness to the living & the dead.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I agree it is about prior to the resurrection. The way I see it, there was a general holding place for the dead prior to Christ. Then, until Christ returns, there is Hades and Abraham's Bosom. But the parable, to me, is meant to show a greater reality, not a lesser one, and the "chasm" is part of that.

I never said it was lesser, but even with the chasm God can bridge it should He choose to.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Thank you.

May God have mercy upon her and grant her eternal rest. Amen.

amen!

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

I may rethink my position on praying for the dead. I did see some early sources in the ECF of 2 Timothy 1:16-18 and it seems they thought that it was at least good to hope for those who have died.

Having said that, could I ask some people here to pray for this woman who died? She was a part of my Bible study. I do not know if she died in unrepentant sin. I write about it here:

Okay, so the situation is kinda not a fun thing to think about but I'd like to get some feedback on it.

I've been leading a Bible study at my apartment complex since March. I've had problems since we started.

At one point, people were not showing up to Bible study because they were having conflicts with other people in the Bible study group (that were unrelated to the Bible study itself). I live in subsidized housing so it is a place where people have a lot of problems. I was trying to get at the root of the conflicts so people could make up so everyone could come to the Bible study. This went on for longer than a month just trying to get at the bottom of the conflicts. One person would tell me one thing and another person would tell me something completely different. They were not talking to each other. I asked my pastor for advice since it was getting a bit much. He asked me if there was a specific person who was causing most of the conflicts. And after thinking for a short time, I realized that there were several people who were not showing up to the Bible study because of one person. So I had to have a hard conversation I didn't want to have with that person. I told them they could come to Bible study but they had to apologize to those three people who weren't showing up to Bible study because of them. I never knew who was totally telling the truth and it is possible no one was telling the whole truth. But I figured that there were three different people who were not coming to Bible study because of her so she was likely at fault. Here's where it gets sad. She did not want to apologize to them. She sort of apologized to one person but it wasn't actually apologizing for doing something wrong. I don't think she really knew why she had to apologize to another person. I think I told both her and him to talk about why she had to apologize. She never apologized to him. And then she had a major conflict with another woman who I told to apologize to. Then days later she died. Apparently, she overdosed on something. I don't know what she overdosed on, but I know she was on some pretty heavy-duty painkillers as she had a lot of health problems. She was talking with another person who used to come to the Bible study but stopped when I told the woman she had to apologize to those other people some things she had to do if she died.

Now my question: Given I don't know what the woman who died was thinking, I don't know:
1) If she was living in unrepentant sin when she died.
2) If she died by suicide.
3) If telling her she had to apologize to those other people to be back in Bible study is what led to her dying by suicide because it may have originally been her idea to have the Bible study and she really liked it, but she didn't want to apologize.

In other words, is it my fault?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Having said that, could I ask some people here to pray for this woman who died? She was a part of my Bible study. I do not know if she died in unrepentant sin. I write about it here:

Lord have mercy! may her soul dwell with the blessed!