If you're speaking of the Trinity, I'm arguing that this isn't quite true. They didn't put Wisdom and the Holy Spirit together with God and speak of a Trinity, but all three were there, and so was the idea of one God, just not a single framework to talk about all of this together.So the thinking of separate but one never occurred to the Hebrew people but only came into existence basically at the hand of gentiles?
No I am saying (referring to) the train of though of separate but one used in the formulation of the Trinity. Did that train of thought not exist before the gentiles? Either viewpoint is related to train of thought. If it didn't exist then why the major shift? Was religion creating a new philosophy and for what purpose? Duality and trinity would have been from the same train of thought, but duality didn't exist for thousands of years of pre-Christian adaptation of Hebrew religion.If you're speaking of the Trinity, I'm arguing that this isn't quite true.
Separate but one seems to be implicit in the Wisdom / logos. See John 1. I don’t know whether anyone thought about the ontological status of the Holy Spirit.No I am saying (referring to) the train of though of separate but one used in the formulation of the Trinity. Did that train of thought not exist before the gentiles? Either viewpoint is related to train of thought. If it didn't exist then why the major shift? Was religion creating a new philosophy and for what purpose? Duality and trinity would have been from the same train of thought, but duality didn't exist for thousands of years of pre-Christian adaptation of Hebrew religion.
Right so why the need to change the train of thought? Duality didn't trigger the need for change so what was it about a new religion over the people that required a shift in thinking? The idea was not new to the religion but had been used by Caesars and the like for ages, a secular concept. Was this just another instant of adversarial thinking trying to make over Christianity into man's image, a hybrid of the movement Jesus started??I don’t know whether anyone thought about the ontological status of the Holy Spirit.
That's a complex historical question. And our records are sparser than we'd like. Christian theology has often developed out of worship. Matthew suggests that there was a baptismal formula involving Father, Son and Holy Spirit from fairly early, among what we assume is a Jewish-Christian congregation. Paul uses that kind of tripartite formula a few places, though normally in the form God, Son and Holy Spirit. Since the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit were all well-known manifestations of God, I think this kind of language was obvious. It's also obvious that people would reflect on the relationship between the Father and Jesus. You can see preexistence attributed to Christ several places in the NT. I think the background of that language is more Jewish than Gentile.Right so why the need to change the train of thought? Duality didn't trigger the need for change so what was it about a new religion over the people that required a shift in thinking? The idea was not new to the religion but had been used by Caesars and the like for ages, a secular concept. Was this just another instant of adversarial thinking trying to make over Christianity into man's image, a hybrid of the movement Jesus started??
I totally agree with the concept of three entities working as one in the common cause of Kingdom and the Father's will over the world rather than man's, but how did it get twisted?
The Caesars were already calling themselves trinities. The secular pattern was already set.
Hello! Long ago Judaism had a Godhead. It was declared heretical by the rabbis sometime in the 2nd century. Was it a coincidence that by this time Christianity had taken this idea and applied it to Jesus of Nazareth?The Jewish concept of God is same as Islamic concept of God. Jesus believe in one God like Muslims do. They don't believe God is 3 persons
I don't disagree but am merely saying the concept already existed and unfortunately the gentiles (especially the Romans who built upon Roman foundations) were also good at making the religion over in their own image that had preceded them, thus the hybrid religion of flesh and spirit.Yet, we know there is one God, the Father, but within the nature of that one God exists the Spirit and the Word. God would not be God without His Spirit and His Word through whom God creates and accomplishes all things in Heaven and in Earth. Therefore God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - all three being of the very same nature of being that one God.
I don't disagree but am merely saying the concept already existed and unfortunately the gentiles (especially the Romans who built upon Roman foundations) were also good at making the religion over in their own image that had preceded them, thus the hybrid religion of flesh and spirit.
It is also taught in the OT. See Isaiah 9:6-7. And of course you can string many other individual passages together to arrive at the Trinity (in the OT and NT).The ideas that formed the doctrine of the Trinity are certainly present in the New Testament, including the Baptismal Formula (Matthew 28:19-20).
We know that the Father is God.
We know that the Son is God
We know that the Spirit is God
Yet, we know there is one God, the Father, but within the nature of that one God exists the Spirit and the Word. God would not be God without His Spirit and His Word through whom God creates and accomplishes all things in Heaven and in Earth. Therefore God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - all three being of the very same nature of being that one God.
How do we know this? Not because pagans used these concepts, but because such is taught within the New Testament. It just took time for the early Church to put this all into doctrinal statements and Creeds in order to protect The Faith of the Gospel against heretics.
It is also taught in the OT. See Isaiah 9:6-7. And of course you can string many other individual passages together to arrive at the Trinity (in the OT and NT).
Thank you and Blessings to you,Yes, good Passage. The Old Testament contains many Passages, including prophecy (of which you quoted), that recognize God, and the name Jehovah, the Word, as referring to God as a plural being. We have one OT Passage that specifically speaks of God's Son (Psalms 2:12), and we have Passages referring to the Spirit of God. All such Passages refer to God's nature as having a composite unity.
Blessings.
Yet it took Gentiles to improve on it?
Thank you and Blessings to you,
These passages from Isaiah 9:6-7:
6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the greatness of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the Lord Almighty
will accomplish this.
The child to be given us, the son, is Jesus. It states there that among all else He shall be the Mighty God, Everlasting Father...so there's no denying that Jesus is the Son and He is the Everlasting Father. The son, Jesus will be called Wonderful Counselor...so stated here...the Wonderful Counselor is the Holy Spirit. The Gospel of John records Jesus as saying He will send us the Counselor and He will remind us of everything He (Jesus) taught. (that's John 14:26) The Spirit is also mentioned in several OT passages as coming upon the prophets which testify...so then one need not rely on the NT to arrive at the Trinity. We see the three persons mentioned in these Isaiah verses, however, and yet the one-ness of God...last line..."The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this."
The OT Israelites were taught the Scriptures so I am just stating here that the Triune nature of God was known to them. The idea that the Romans had the Tribunal is only ancillary and certainly not a precursor to this knowledge...as I believe is being pointed out in some previous posts.
This is not new either...the pagan world followed ideas and precepts of the Hebrews...news spreads and permeates the nations because of the greatness of God and all He does for His peoples. Remember the sacrifices the pagans made...although a corruption, the idea is rooted in Judaism, I believe, and not the other way around. I am not referring to your post here; I am rather making new points for all readers.