Why LCC/LCMS?

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Canadian75

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With rising gas prices I may have to change parishes to something closer to my house. There is a LCC parish near by and another ELCiC parish close as well. Both offer communion every other week (the one I'd be leaving has weekly communion) and both have good Sunday school programs for my kids.

I think the biggest change would be for my kids being barred from communion until they are older. They had to wait to take communion when we were Catholic, then they had their first communion and they could take communion at the Lutheran church we are currently attending. It would be a big change to go back to waiting for communion. The only difficulty with theology would be the whole evolution vs. creation thing, which is something I could work on.

The main question is why might it be a good idea to join a LCC parish? In case you aren't aware, the LCC is a former part of the LCMS and is in full communion with the LCMS still. Also, without putting down the ELCA directly, why do you like being a member of the LCMS (or perhaps WELS)?


Peace.
 

filosofer

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Howdy. There are several issues involved:

1. Communion. One of the problems that has appeared in recent decades, particularly in ELCA and predecssor LCA is that communion age was dropped, so that very young children began attending. This was matched by less instruction in what is the essence of the Lord's Supper, benefits, etc. The problem multiplies when families with children then move elsewhere, where the aage is not the same. As a pastor in the LCMS my approach was to meet the family that had been in this situation and discuss the theology of communion and discuss it with the child. In several cases they continued to receive communion because of that confession of faith. One family asked about it and they were concerned about the friends of the child - how they would respond if their son/daughter received communion and the others could not. In that case they agreed that the offense might be avoided by the child not receiving communion for that year (the child was beginning the second year of catechism instruction).

So, the inconsistency of age of communion will have to be addressed, even at a congregational level, not Synodical/church body level.

2. From my perspective (former LCMS, now TAALC) the issue of theological erosion would be enough to make the move to LCC necessary. But keep in mind that there is no perfect church body, nor perfect congregation - that's why we still have Word and Sacrament ministry! ;)

3. Not sure what you mean by the problem of creation vs. evolution (although, technically the distinction is between creation and macro-evolution). Can you expand?

In Christ's love,
filo
 
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Canadian75

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filosofer said:
3. Not sure what you mean by the problem of creation vs. evolution (although, technically the distinction is between creation and macro-evolution). Can you expand?

I was taught theistic evolution as a Catholic and in my current Lutheran church. Basically, Genesis 1-11 is treated as more symbolic than literal. Ie. six days are not six 24hr periods, but stages, Noah's flood was large but not global, etc. etc. From what I've read, the LCMS/LCC adhere to a literal interpretation. I'm not so inflexible on the issue that I won't change my mind if I'm convinced, mostly because I've never seen it as a major issue.

Before I switched my major to Medieval Studies, I was a Geography major and I remember one semester I took three classes that gave an introduction to evolutionary theory. It was the first time I had to see if the bible and some aspects of evolutionary theory were compatible. I was told the RCC teaches they are compatible and I subsequently looked into Theistic evolution and found it made some sense. But I kind of left it alone because it ultimately was not the biggest spiritual concern in my life.


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LutherNut

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Canadian75 said:
I was taught theistic evolution as a Catholic and in my current Lutheran church. Basically, Genesis 1-11 is treated as more symbolic than literal. Ie. six days are not six 24hr periods, but stages, Noah's flood was large but not global, etc. etc. From what I've read, the LCMS/LCC adhere to a literal interpretation. I'm not so inflexible on the issue that I won't change my mind if I'm convinced, mostly because I've never seen it as a major issue.

Before I switched my major to Medieval Studies, I was a Geography major and I remember one semester I took three classes that gave an introduction to evolutionary theory. It was the first time I had to see if the bible and some aspects of evolutionary theory were compatible. I was told the RCC teaches they are compatible and I subsequently looked into Theistic evolution and found it made some sense. But I kind of left it alone because it ultimately was not the biggest spiritual concern in my life.


Peace.


The difference is in how the RCC/ELCA and the LCMS view and subscribe to Scripture. The Missouri Synod (and also LCC) subscribe to the Bible as being the inerrant, inspired Word of God and the norm of all teaching and practice of the faith. The ELCA holds that the Bible contains the inerrant, inspired Word of God. The RCC holds that the Bible is the Word of God, but is not the norm of teaching in the Church but rather the Church (magesterium) is the norm.
The context of Genesis leaves no doubt that the days of creation are 24 hour days and that the flood of Genesis 6 was indeed global. Remember, Genesis 3 is where we hear of the very first prophecy of the promise of Christ. If Genesis is debunked as mere myth, the very foundation of our entire faith is put into question as well. This is the position of the LCMS/LCC.


Jay:wave:
 
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C.F.W. Walther

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LutherNut said:
The difference is in how the RCC/ELCA and the LCMS view and subscribe to Scripture. The Missouri Synod (and also LCC) subscribe to the Bible as being the inerrant, inspired Word of God and the norm of all teaching and practice of the faith. The ELCA holds that the Bible contains the inerrant, inspired Word of God. The RCC holds that the Bible is the Word of God, but is not the norm of teaching in the Church but rather the Church (magesterium) is the norm.
The context of Genesis leaves no doubt that the days of creation are 24 hour days and that the flood of Genesis 6 was indeed global. Remember, Genesis 3 is where we hear of the very first prophecy of the promise of Christ. If Genesis is debunked as mere myth, the very foundation of our entire faith is put into question as well. This is the position of the LCMS/LCC.


Jay:wave:

What is really sad is that there are around 20 differant "groups?" under the Lutheran name in America. Between some groups the differances seems to be so nominal. They seem to splinter off and then merge again years later. It would seem that to show unity in the Christian community and the world it would be advantageous to increase dialogue between them and really hash out the differances. I know this is somewhat wishfull thinking but it would be a more effective witness to the world. It's allmost like "well the Lutherans can't figure out what is right and agree on it so they must not really know what they are talking about". I mean, who are we trying to impress, ourselves? I know this is a simplistic idea but can you imagine what this does to people looking into joining the Lutheran community? They see us as fragmented and subject to "whims" and windy theological debates. To me it all stems from pride. "Well we're right and you're not" mentality. To me the idelogical division should consist of confessioanl Lutherans (bible, BOC, Augburgs etc.) on one side and all the others on the other. Then "all the others" should just change their names to something other than Lutheran. Like the TFCA "Totaly Fragmented Church's of America" or something like that. I know I'm going to get a lot of static for that comment but I don't really want to cause decension. Just "peace as I give you".

Obviously I'm writing this out of frustration and it probably won't happen. It's just a pipe dream and would not be taken seriously by any church body since none of us will sacrifice "pride" (I'm right and you're not) for unity. To me the devil feeds on this decension and just loves it. He sits back and chuckles and knows that the "Church" can't be an effective witness to the world because of so much in-fighting.

Is it any wonder why there are, more than ever, churches from around the world sending missionaries to the US because we are a going "Godless" and have no impact on our own country? We spend too much time debating on who is right rather than the great commision and our own witness.

I'm just venting and not trying to cause "more devision" GOD NO! It's just my 2 cents worth. Just an opinion----nothing more.






:scratch:
 
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Canadian75

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Radidio said:
We spend too much time debating on who is right rather than the great commision and our own witness.


Good point. Some people would argue that part of the great commision involves fighting errors. But, many (not all) of the 'errors' we constantly fight about are relatively minor issues compared to what we all agree on.


Peace.
 
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Canadian75

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When I spoke to the LCC pastor a few days ago he had some interesting things to say. First, he suggested my changing churches because of gasoline concerns was not a particularly strong reason to change churches (I'd only save about 5 min of driving one way anyway). But, that led into some interesting discussions about the views of the LCC. Though it could be a bad idea to move my kids into a church where they'd have to wait for communion, it is possible for the older ones to possibly take communion (though it is up to the congregation) since they have done so in exceptional circumstances. And the practice of witholding communion until confirmation age was the basic practice of most western churches up to the middle of last century (I never thought of that before). But the really eye opening stuff involved same-sex marriage.

I've always been quite a conservative with regards to marriage and am opposed to SSM. He pointed out that SSM is actually only a small part of the bigger issue. The bigger issue being the erosion of marriage in general. The lack of respect for marriage and the increase of common-law marriages, large amounts of irresponsible teens/young adults giving birth outside of any commited relationship, along with SSM are all problems that we need to address. I totally agree and never heard anyone else quite put it that way.

All in all the conversation was extremely productive, though I have no idea what I'm going to do next. I have to figure out something though, it is time to plant some roots and join a congregation on a more stable basis.

Peace.
 
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ByzantineDixie

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Hey Canada...sounds like this LCC pastor is a straight talker. Having a spiritual leader you can trust is very important. We don't always get a leader we like. We don't always get a leader we feel we can even trust. But we can trust God to provide us with what we need when we need it. I pray your search goes well.

Canadian75 said:
And the practice of witholding communion until confirmation age was the basic practice of most western churches up to the middle of last century (I never thought of that before).

Just an aside because this subject is one in which I have a keen interest...I don't know that I agree with this. If you are interested in the Western Church's practices on communing infants and children and when the practice ceased you might want to read this article. Withholding communion from children, while a basic practice of the Western Church for quite some time...it was not the original practice. (Some fix the date of change at 1215, the 4th Lateran Council, although the article points out it wasn't fully formalized until Trent.) Regardless...in the LCMS / LCC...it is what it is today and the LCMS offer Scriptural and confessional exegeses to support the present day practice of communing older children only after proper study.
 
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Canadian75

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Luthers Rose said:
Regardless...in the LCMS / LCC...it is what it is today and the LCMS offer Scriptural and confessional exegeses to support the present day practice of communing older children only after proper study.


Okay, communing young children isn't a practice as old as I thought, but 800 yrs is still a long time.

I'm also wondering if it would be a sin for me as a father to deny my children the body and blood of Christ by moving them to a congregation where they will no longer be able to commune (even if I find I agree with the theology of the LCC more than the ELCiC)?


Peace.
 
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ByzantineDixie

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Canadian75 said:
Okay, communing young children isn't a practice as old as I thought, but 800 yrs is still a long time.

Oh I know...it really just amazes me that this has gone uncorrected in some of the Western Churches and now the exegeses of today match the change in practice!!! I guess the poor misguided Church was violating the Scriptures for 1200 years until the Western Council set things right.

I'm also wondering if it would be a sin for me as a father to deny my children the body and blood of Christ by moving them to a congregation where they will no longer be able to commune (even if I find I agree with the theology of the LCC more than the ELCiC)?

You need to make the best decision you can make, guided by prayer and preferably consult with a pastor. Then rest in that decision. If you made a mistake and you were wrong...Christ's sacrifice has covered this error. This is exactly what Martin Luther meant when he said "Sin Boldly".

I know it's a tough decision...but pray about it...talk to both pastors again...and I bet you'll be able to make the best decision possible.
 
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Protoevangel

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Hi Canadian75,

I understand where you are comming from, I have had the same struggle myself. I just wanted to offer you a few quotes by some Theologians that I have a great deal of respect for. One being Martin Luther, another, Martin Chemnitz, and the last, Jacob Andreae. It is my hope that their explanations will help you understand the issue more clearly.


"I cannot side with the Bohemians in distributing the Lord’s Supper to children, even though I would not call them heretics on that account."
- Martin Luther, Letter to Nicolaus Hausmann (1523); quoted in Francis Pieper, Christian Dogmatics, Vol. III (Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1953), p. 383


"It is clear that one cannot deal with infants through the bare preaching of repentance and remission of sins, for that requires hearing (Rom. 10:17), deliberation and meditation (Ps. 119), understanding (Matt. 13:51), which are not found in infants. With regard to the Lord’s Supper Paul says: “Let a man examine himself” [1 Cor. 11:28]. Likewise: “Let him discern the Lord’s body” [1 Cor. 11:29], a thing which cannot be ascribed to infants. Moreover, Christ instituted His Supper for such as had already become His disciples. In the Old Testament infants were circumcised on the eighth day, but they were admitted to the eating of the Passover lamb when they were able to ask: “What do you mean by this service?” (Ex. 12:26). There remains therefore [for infants] of the means of grace in the New Testament only the sacrament of Baptism."
- Martin Chemnitz, Examination of the Council of Trent, Part II, pp. 165-66


"We often exhort our people who have repented to partake frequently of the Lord’s Supper. However, we do not commune the infants, for Paul says: “Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the Lord’s body, eats and drinks judgment upon himself” [1 Cor 11:28-29]. And since the children are not able to examine themselves and, thus, cannot discern the Lord’s body, we think that the ceremony of the baptism is sufficient for their salvation, and also the hidden faith with which the Lord has endowed them. For through this faith they spiritually eat the flesh of Christ, even if they do not, in the communion of the supper, physically eat it."
- The Tübingen Theologians (including Jacob Andreae), Correspondence with the Patriarch of Constantinople (1577), Augsburg and Constantinople (Brookline, Mass.: Holy Cross Orthodox Press, 1982), p. 143
 
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alabaster jar

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I wish there was just one sort of Lutheran church, too. If the churches could just have some autonomy via Pastors, maybe it would be possible?

But on the subject of switching because of gas, distance. That is just what I did. I went from 13 miles down to less than five miles. I went to an LCMS and now go to an ELCA. The drive was about twenty five minutes and now it is fifteen; plus, in my old church the girls had choir every Wednesday evening. So it was a lot of running and more stress in the winter months.

Also, my old church started earlier in the morning, before the snow plow comes. In my new church, I may be able to go on snowy days, as it starts much later.

I do not believe in the literal six days, so I don't miss that aspect of LCMS. I think they believe in Jonah being inside a fish for three days, too. Everything is very literal. But I don't come from a position where that is a huge problem--I just don't think in those type of literal terms; probably because I study literature and view the bible through that vein--metaphor, symbalism, etc.

This is probably a shallow reason to be Lutheran, but I feel a tie to it because of ethnicity, as well.

Since the synods do seem to split hairs on things, I really don't mind going to what is closer and what suits me. In fact, it's much easier to go now, whereas before I could make excuses and my old church was so big--I didn't feel all that missed. (although, when I told some that I was leaving, they were very kind and hoped I would be back)
 
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filosofer

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alabaster jar said:
I do not believe in the literal six days, so I don't miss that aspect of LCMS. I think they believe in Jonah being inside a fish for three days, too. Everything is very literal. But I don't come from a position where that is a huge problem--I just don't think in those type of literal terms; probably because I study literature and view the bible through that vein--metaphor, symbalism, etc.


While it is important to consider literature as it is written, i.e., the genre, it is equally important not to change the writing to suit something that we can "accept" intellectually. In other words, if the piece is written as history, it is an injustice to the text to say that it is not history. And note that metaphors and symbolism are figures of speech/writing, not genre. So even historical writers can use metaphor and symbolism, but that does not negate the historical nature of the text.

In Christ's love,
filo
 
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LutherNut

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alabaster jar said:
I do not believe in the literal six days, so I don't miss that aspect of LCMS. I think they believe in Jonah being inside a fish for three days, too. Everything is very literal. But I don't come from a position where that is a huge problem--I just don't think in those type of literal terms; probably because I study literature and view the bible through that vein--metaphor, symbalism, etc.

The one major difference between LCMS and ELCA is how we view Scripture. The ELCA does not believe that everything in the Bible is the Word of God, so they can pick and choose what they want to believe. The LCMS holds that everything between Genesis 1:1 and Revelation 22:21 is the inspired inerrant Word of God and the norm of all teaching and practice of the faith. That is a huge difference.

The reason that the ELCA does not hold to the literal creation account is because they view the writings of the Torah (Genesis - Deuteronomy) as coming from multiple authors over a long period of time. The LCMS believes the words of Jesus who refers to these books as the writings of Moses. Personally, I will believe Jesus before I will believe the ELCA;) .

Biblical literature is a different kind of animal because it is written in a variety of genres. Much of Genesis is an historical account. There is nothing in the context of Genesis that suggests that the six days of Creation are anything but 6 consecutive 24 hour days. This is also supported by numerous mentions of the Creation account throughout the Bible including the New Testament. It is near impossible for the New Testament Church to discount the literal six days of Creation as a myth or simply a metaphor.


Jay


PS - My CF character has a huge crush on your CF character! :blush:
 
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Qoheleth

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DH said:
"We often exhort our people who have repented to partake frequently of the Lord’s Supper. However, we do not commune the infants, for Paul says: “Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the Lord’s body, eats and drinks judgment upon himself” [1 Cor 11:28-29]. And since the children are not able to examine themselves and, thus, cannot discern the Lord’s body, we think that the ceremony of the baptism is sufficient for their salvation, and also the hidden faith with which the Lord has endowed them. For through this faith they spiritually eat the flesh of Christ, even if they do not, in the communion of the supper, physically eat it."
- The Tübingen Theologians (including Jacob Andreae), Correspondence with the Patriarch of Constantinople (1577), Augsburg and Constantinople (Brookline, Mass.: Holy Cross Orthodox Press, 1982), p. 143



But if our baptized infants are truly to be counted among the faithful, then they are also among those “who are already in terror on account of their sins.” They are penitent and believing. They are not to have the law and its accusations preached to them. They are not to be denied the absolution, but rather given its comfort and strength.

The Augsburg Confession says,

True repentance is nothing else than to have contrition and sorrow, or terror on account of sin, and yet at the same time to believe the Gospel and absolution (namely, that sin has been forgiven and grace has been obtained through Christ), and this faith will comfort the heart and again set it at rest.

If we believe our theology of Baptism, then we believe that this is the condition of the baptized infant.

And yet we continue to speak law to these terrified but believing hearts, because we hear the words we have spoken for centuries; the words summed up in the explanation of the Catechism, “Who must not be given the Sacrament? Those who are unable to examine themselves, such as infants, . . . 1 Cor. 11:28 A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup.” The unspoken syllogism here needs to be challenged. Yes, a man must examine himself. This premise is undeniable, for it is inspired. But the second premise, that the infant cannot examine himself, is neither inspired nor is it based on a thorough study of Scripture and the Confessions. It is an assumption: a legalistic, tradition-shaped assumption, which needs to be reexamined and replaced with the true premise found in the Scriptures and the Confessions. In both Scripture and the Confessions examining oneself is not an act of intellect, but an act of repentance, and therefore an act that God is quite capable of bringing about within the baptized infant. Indeed it is an act He has already brought about and has promised to sustain. (The Rev. Scott M. Marincic)

Q
 
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Qoheleth

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DM said:
"I cannot side with the Bohemians in distributing the Lord’s Supper to children, even though I would not call them heretics on that account."
- Martin Luther, Letter to Nicolaus Hausmann (1523); quoted in Francis Pieper, Christian Dogmatics, Vol. III (Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1953), p. 383



The theology and practice of the Hussites should be especially important to Lutherans, for Luther himself accepted the Roman charge that he was a Hussite, even though he had not known it. Also in his letter to Hausman in the year 1523, Luther wrote, “I cannot side with the Bohemians [Hussites] in distributing the Lord’s Supper to children, even though I would not call them heretics on that account.” So in 1523 Luther would not declare infant communion heresy, even though he felt uncomfortable with the practice.

But in 1533 Luther seems to have progressed more along Hussite lines:


For, God be praised, in our churches we can show a Christian a true Christian mass according to the ordinance and institution of Christ, as well as according to the true intention of Christ and the church. There our pastor, bishop or minister in the pastoral office, rightly and honorably and publicly called, having been previously consecrated, anointed, and born in baptism as a priest of Christ, without regard to the private chrism, goes before the altar. Publicly and plainly he sings what Christ has ordained and instituted in the Lord’s Supper. He takes the bread and wine, gives thanks, distributes and gives them to the rest of us who are there and want to receive them, on the strength of the words of Christ: “This is My body, this is My blood. Do this,” etc. Particularly we who want to receive the sacrament kneel beside, behind, and around him, man, woman, young, old, master, servant, wife, maid, parents, and children, even as God brings us together there, all of us true, holy priests, sanctified by Christ’s blood, anointed by the Holy Spirit and consecrated in baptism [emphasis added].


This more Hussite Luther appears also in 1539 when he writes:


Third, God’s people, or Christian holy people, are recognized by the holy sacrament of the altar, wherever it is rightly administered, believed, and received, according to Christ’s institution. This too is a public sign and a precious, holy possession left behind by Christ by which his people are sanctified so that they also exercise themselves in faith and openly confess that they are Christian, just as they do with the word and with baptism. And here too you need not be disturbed if the pope does not say mass for you, does not consecrate, anoint, or vest you with a chasuble. Indeed, you may, like a patient in bed, receive this sacrament without wearing any garb, except that outward decency obliges you to be properly covered. Moreover, you need not ask whether you have a tonsure or are anointed. In addition, the question of whether you are male or female, young or old, need not be argued—just as little as it matters in baptism and the preached word. It is enough that you are consecrated and anointed with the sublime and holy chrism of God, with the word of God, with baptism, and also with this sacrament; then you are highly and gloriously enough and sufficiently vested with priestly garments [emphasis added].

Keeping in mind that Luther as early as 1523 would not declare infant communion heresy, and by 1533 and 1539 would even speak in favor of communing the baptized regardless of age. (The Rev. Scott M. Marincic)

Q
 
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Qoheleth

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DH said:
"It is clear that one cannot deal with infants through the bare preaching of repentance and remission of sins, for that requires hearing (Rom. 10:17), deliberation and meditation (Ps. 119), understanding (Matt. 13:51), which are not found in infants. With regard to the Lord’s Supper Paul says: “Let a man examine himself” [1 Cor. 11:28]. Likewise: “Let him discern the Lord’s body” [1 Cor. 11:29], a thing which cannot be ascribed to infants. Moreover, Christ instituted His Supper for such as had already become His disciples. In the Old Testament infants were circumcised on the eighth day, but they were admitted to the eating of the Passover lamb when they were able to ask: “What do you mean by this service?” (Ex. 12:26). There remains therefore [for infants] of the means of grace in the New Testament only the sacrament of Baptism."
- Martin Chemnitz, Examination of the Council of Trent, Part II, pp. 165-66

For those who are suspect of anything Philippist, we also have Chemnitz, the second Martin. In interpreting I Cor. 11:29 in his The Lord’s Supper Chemnitz writes:


"He [Paul] has already explained in the preceding verses what it means to eat unworthily. But why and how can it be that men are not afraid to approach this holy table of the Lord with such security, ignorance, frivolity, temerity, and impurity as to eat this Supper unworthily?"

Chemnitz points out that the unworthy eating is defined by the verses previous to I Corinthians 11:27, the verses in which their unrepentant behavior is detailed. He does not yet point us ahead to the statement regarding the discerning of the body. The essence of unworthy eating is unrepentant eating. But how is it that the Corinthians have come to such unrepentant eating? Chemnitz responds:

"Paul answers that it happens because they do not distinguish or discern the Lord’s body. . . . He requires this kind of discrimination, so that we might discern the bread of this Supper, distinguish it from other bread, acknowledge His true honor, and in accordance with His Word attribute to Him by our discernment the preeminence which is due Him."


There is a temptation at this point to use Chemnitz as support for the need for intellectual discernment. But the force of Chemnitz’s argument is not intellectual, but penitential. Those who do not discern the body are guilty because they do not honor the Lord. By treating Him as common, even though they have been taught better, they insult Him and reveal their unrepentance. That Chemnitz is speaking to impenitent disregard for the real presence and not to the Christian whose knowledge is simply deficient is brought out when he says:

"Surely on the basis of this statement the frivolity, brashness, security, and impudence of the human mind, which plays and cogitates on the various interpretations of these words, ought to be struck down as by a thunderbolt. For it is horrible to fall under the guilt of divine judgment because of not discerning the Lord’s body."

Read entirely within their logical context, Chemnitz’s words reinforce the Scriptural and Confessional doctrine that repentant faith, sealed in Baptism is the only prerequisite for the Supper.

This concern for repentance is echoed by Chemnitz in his Enchiridion. There we have,

"What, then, is the true and salutary use of the Lord’s Supper? When the ordinance and command of Christ are observed, namely that we eat His body and drink His blood, and do that in remembrance of Him, that is, with a penitent heart and in true faith” [emphasis added].


In listing the benefits of the Supper Chemnitz writes:

"Since nothing good, but only sin, dwells in our flesh, whence extremely many evil fruits continually sprout and come forth, therefore Christ, in His Supper, offers us His most holy body and blood, so that, engrafted by this communion as branches in Him who is the true vine, we might draw thence new, good, and spiritual sap. Thus we are also joined most closely by this communion with other Christians as members of the one body of Christ (I Co 10:17), so that mutual love toward the neighbor is enkindled, increased and preserved in us."

The need for the Supper is just as great for the infant, and his engrafting to the true vine and to his fellow Christians is just as real.

But most convincingly from this work of Chemnitz is where he writes on worthiness and unworthiness:

"Who, then, are they that eat and drink unworthily in the Lord’s Supper, so that we might learn to guard the more carefully against that unworthiness?

That unworthiness does not consist in this, that we miserable sinners are unworthy of that heavenly food. For that food is prepared and intended especially for sinners. But the following are they that eat unworthily, as one can very clearly gather from Paul, I Cor 11:

I. They that do not discern the body of the Lord, that is [they] that do not hold that the very sacred food of this Supper is the body and blood of Christ, but handle and use it with no greater reverence and devotion than other common foods."


I want to quote more from Chemnitz in a moment, but first a need for comment. As we interpret Chemnitz here we must either reject what he says as unconfessional, or we must square it with what the Catechisms and the Formula of Concord say regarding worthiness. If Chemnitz is to be accepted, then these statements must concur with the Confessions which state that unworthiness is nothing more than impenitence, and worthiness is nothing more than repentant faith.

With this in mind, either do not quote Chemnitz against me, or admit that the concern here is with the irreverence and lack of devotion of those who deny the real presence, not with the Christian who has never been taught the truth, or whose understanding is faulty. When Chemnitz says that those who do not discern the body are unworthy to commune, either he is wrong, or by those who do not discern he means the unbeliever, for the Formula of Concord binds us to confess, “We believe, teach, and confess that there is only one kind of unworthy guest, namely, those who do not believe.” I choose to accept Chemnitz and interpret his words as elaboration on forms of unbelief.


Chemnitz continues to elaborate on who is unworthy:


"II. They that continue in sins without repentance and have and retain not the intent to lead a better life, but rather continue in sin, as Paul rebukes this very thing in some Corinthians. . . .



III. They that come to this Supper without true faith, namely they that either seek the grace of God, forgiveness of sins, and eternal salvation elsewhere than alone in the merit of Christ, or who, steeped in Epicurean security, hunger and thirst, with no true desires, after righteousness, that is, the grace of God in Christ, reconciliation, and salvation. For he that does not believe will be condemned, though he uses the Word and the Sacraments."

Here again Chemnitz interprets I Corinthians 11 in terms of unrepentance, and ties the whole issue to that of repentant faith versus impenitent unbelief. This is further enforced when he writes:

"But since life itself dwells in the body of Christ, what kind of cause of death can then exist for those that eat unworthily?


That does not result from this, that the Lord’s body per se is a deadly poison, but that they who eat unworthily sin against the body of Christ by Epicurean security and impenitence, and do it wrong by their unworthy eating, and, as it were, tread [it] underfoot."

That Chemnitz considers only the impenitent unworthy is reinforced by whom he considers worthy. This we find in his words on how one should examine himself:

" How, then, should a man examine or look into himself, so that he might eat and drink worthily in the holy Supper?

This worthy eating does not consist in a man’s purity, holiness, or perfection. For they who are healthy do not need a doctor, but they who are not healthy (Mt 9:12). But, by way of contrast with the unworthy, one can understand very easily how that examination or exploration is to be undertaken, namely:

" First, let the mind consider of what nature the act of this Supper is, who is present there, [and] what kind of food is offered and taken there, so that one might prepare himself with due humility and piety for its reception."

Second, let a man about to approach the Lord’s Table be endowed with the kind of heart that seriously acknowledges his sins and errors, and shudders at the wrath of God, and does not delight in sin, but is troubled and grieved [by it], and has the earnest purpose to amend [his life].

Third, that the mind sincerely give itself to this concern, that it might not perish in sins under the wrath of God, and therefore with ardent desire thirst for and long for the grace of God, so that by true faith in the obedience, passion, and death of Christ, that is, in the offering of [His] body and shedding of His blood it seek, beg, lay hold on and apply to itself the grace of God, forgiveness of sins, and salvation. He that examines and prepares himself in this way, he truly uses this Sacrament worthily, not unto judgment, but unto salvation" [emphasis added]."


What Chemnitz describes here is nothing more than the Catechisms and the Formula of Concord say: That one who knows repentance and faith is worthy to receive the Supper for salvation. For forgiveness of sins, life and salvation are the gifts of God to the baptized, and what God gives in Baptism He will not take away in the Supper. (Rev. Scott Marincic)


Q
 
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KEPLER

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LutherNut said:
There is nothing in the context of Genesis that suggests that the six days of Creation are anything but 6 consecutive 24 hour days. This is also supported by numerous mentions of the Creation account throughout the Bible including the New Testament. It is near impossible for the New Testament Church to discount the literal six days of Creation as a myth or simply a metaphor.

LN,

With all due respect...this is an area of Christian freedom.

As I mentioned in a post elsewhere, I take God's Word (both Christ and the Scriptures) very seriously. So when I read in Genesis 1 that the Sun and Moon are created on the 4th day, I must understand "morning and evening" in the first three days as something other than what I know as "morning and evening". It is the TEXT itself which leads me to that conlcusion, not any outside evidence: this is strictly analogia fidei. In fact, the opposite is true: to say, "Morning and evening" must be 24 hour days," is to put MY EXPERIENCE of what defines "morning and evening" OVER the biblical witness.

The same holds true for Genesis 2: "because it had not rained" is used by the text as an explantory phrase, implying that a natural order of Providence was already in place during creation. This does NOT nullify creatio ex nihilo, it just explains it.

Two references I provided on the other posting are:
"Because it had not rained" (1958): http://www.asa3.org/ASA/resources/WTJ/WTJ58Kline.html
and
"Space and Time in the Genesis Cosmogony": http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/1996/PSCF3-96Kline.html

Meredith Kline is an Old testament scholar (at Westminster Theological Seminary) from the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, which is (sort of) the Presbyterian equivalent of the Wisconsin Synod. He is ULTRA conservative and has fought against biblical criticism and liberalism for his entire career. Under no circumstances may his opinion be dismissed as "liberal" or not respectful of Biblical authority. Reject it if you will, but not for those reasons.

Peace,

Eric
 
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LutherNut

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With all due respect...this is an area of Christian freedom.

The Word of God is "an area of Christian freedom"? I don't think so.

Scripture interprets Scripture. The text of Genesis and the text of Scripture as a whole leave no other interpretation than 6 consecutive 24 hour days. Does the text say "Sun and Moon" or does it say "greater light and lesser light"?
Also, "evening and morning" are times of day and are not dependant upon the sun and moon, but rather "light and darkness" - "day and night" which occur before the first "evening and morning".

Don't read more into the text than is there. What is there is more than sufficient to show 6 consecutive 24 hour days.


Jay
 
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