Why is Christian theology so complex?

[Ray K]

Here's the starting premise that I think most Christians will agree on: God is all-knowing, all-powerful and loves us.

Unfortunately, this all-powerful God is incapable of being in the presence of "sin", and his only solution is to eternally banish those beloved creations who are unfortunate enough to die with sin. In addition, this all-powerful being allows the existence of other supernatural creatures whose sole purpose is to apparently increase the level of sinfulness among his beloved creations. But not only are many humans banished from God's presence upon death, these beloved creations are tormented eternally for the sinfulness.

According to Genesis, when God created the first two sinless individuals, this all-knowing being placed within easy reach a means by which they could introduce "sin" into the world -- the very "sin" that this all-powerful being could not tolerate the presence of. When this inevitably happened, these two individuals began to reproduce and all of their descendants mysteriously inherited this "Original Sin". At some point, the sinfulness of humanity became so great that the all-knowing God decided to flex his all-powerful muscles and exterminate every one of his beloved creations except for one family. But after more generations of sinful humans, he devised a special way for sins to be absolved. This involved him creating a son (who is mysteriously also part of him) who "died" for the sins of all humanity. So this son, who is also God, is able to bear upon himself those sins that God cannot tolerate in his presence. But this son is also God.

Unfortunately, this all-powerful God restricted his son's influence to a very small part of the world so that many "sinners" were not initially aware of his existence. And even though his believers are charged to spread the "good news", their ability to get the message out about God's plan for salvation has been mysteriously thwarted by false religions and ideologies which do NOT have the support of an all-powerful being. This means that millions of his beloved creations are condemned to an eternity of torment.

==========

Why does this story have to be so complicated? There are numerous ways to modify this story to make it coherent and in agreement with the starting premise, "God is all-knowing, all-powerful and loves us".

My question to you (or any other Christian) is this, "If you were God, what would you have done differently?"

 

[Blessed-one]

can't answer, i don't have the wisdom to put myself in God's shoe.

well, those who have no knowledge of Jesus will be judged along with the others, but they won't be condemned to spend eternity in hell immediately, instead they'll be judged according to their acts on earth.

 

[Ray K]

Originally posted by Blessed-one
can't answer, i don't have the wisdom to put myself in God's shoe.

well, those who have no knowledge of Jesus will be judged along with the others, but they won't be condemned to spend eternity in hell immediately, instead they'll be judged according to their acts on earth.

Do you have scriptural support for that, or do you believe that because it makes you feel better?

I thought Christian theology was pretty clear that:

-- all people already know of God, even if they deny it
-- the only way to heaven is through Jesus

If you are suggesting that there is a special clause that allows people to be judged on works and not faith, then it seems like you are condemning millions of people to eternal torment by witnessing to them if you are unable to convert them.

 

[MatthewDiscipleofGod]

John chapter 1 states a lot on this topic. All know God as the bible tells us by the things that surround us and also with what dwells within us. Now God will judge us on what we know (Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.) but that doesn't mean ignorance is bliss. Never are we judge by are works as the bible clearly states (Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.)

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

[Ray K]

Originally posted by Project 86
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

So what would you have done differently if you were God?

 

[MatthewDiscipleofGod]

I wouldn't have done it differently. I'm sure some of us think we would have but God has a full picture of everything where as we don't.

 

[solo66 man]

God in his perfection created a way that was most beneficial for the Isrealites first. Then invited in the gentile races. We are not perfect, so, although we may not understand Gods ways, anything we will do will only come to absolute ruin. Our plans will be flawed, even if we perceive them as perfect. In the end, no one would be saved.

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by Ray K

Unfortunately, this all-powerful God is incapable of being in the presence of "sin"

I think this makes more sense if you understand "sin" to mean "absence or rejection of God".

It's not that *He* can't go somewhere; it's that *sin* can't go somewhere.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by Ray K
Here's the starting premise that I think most Christians will agree on: God is all-knowing, all-powerful and loves us.

Unfortunately, this all-powerful God is incapable of being in the presence of "sin", and his only solution is to eternally banish those beloved creations who are unfortunate enough to die with sin.

Wrong, this arguement misses the whole point of the free-will of humans. In addition, God isn't incapable of being with sin because He doesn't choose to be.

Originally posted by Ray K


In addition, this all-powerful being allows the existence of other supernatural creatures whose sole purpose is to apparently increase the level of sinfulness among his beloved creations. But not only are many humans banished from God's presence upon death, these beloved creations are tormented eternally for the sinfulness.

This goes back to free-will. If it were easy to do good, what would be the point of this world in the first place? Evil and sin has to exist, so that we can choose good.

If you can't accept this basic premise, then the rest of your post isn't worth arguing over.

 

[Ray K]

Originally posted by s0uljah


Wrong, this arguement misses the whole point of the free-will of humans. In addition, God isn't incapable of being with sin because He doesn't choose to be.

aahh, but free will has little to do with salvation, according to Christian theology. That would be works, not faith. Even if a person could somehow lead a perfect life, he/she is still born with the "Original Sin" and will spend eternity in Hell unless he/she accepts Jesus.

Do you disagree with that?

This goes back to free-will. If it were easy to do good, what would be the point of this world in the first place? Evil and sin has to exist, so that we can choose good.

If you can't accept this basic premise, then the rest of your post isn't worth arguing over.

"Free will" is just a worn-out explanation for the "Problem of Evil" and has very little to do with salvation -- excepting the particular exercise of free will to accept Jesus.

However, you can still answer my question. If you were God, would you do anything differently or do you believe that creation is as good as it can possibly be?

Regardless of how valid you think my understanding of Christian theology is, that is still a valid question.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by Ray K


aahh, but free will has little to do with salvation, according to Christian theology. That would be works, not faith. Even if a person could somehow lead a perfect life, he/she is still born with the "Original Sin" and will spend eternity in Hell unless he/she accepts Jesus.

Do you disagree with that?

I sure do disagree with that. Free-will is the foundation of Christian theology. If we didn't have the choice to do good or evil, then what is the point of salvation vs punishment.

Originally posted by Ray K


Free will is just a worn-out explanation for the "Problem of Evil" and has very little to do with salvation -- excepting the particular exercise of free will to accept Jesus.

Accepting Jesus isn't just saying "Hey, I accept Jesus, woohoo, I am saved!" It is acting according to His teachings in everything we do in life. So, free-will is hardly just a worn-out explanation of good vs evil.

Originally posted by Ray K


However, you can still answer my question. If you were God, would you do anything differently or do you believe that creation is as good as it can possibly be?

It is perfect, I wouldn't change a thing.

 

[Ray K]

Originally posted by s0uljah


I sure do disagree with that. Free-will is the foundation of Christian theology. If we didn't have the choice to do good or evil, then what is the point of salvation vs punishment.

Of course. But a person (like me) could choose to do good his entire life and still be condemned to Hell (according to you) simply because he failed to acknowledge Jesus as a personal savior.

Do you agree with that?

Accepting Jesus isn't just saying "Hey, I accept Jesus, woohoo, I am saved!" It is acting according to His teachings in everything we do in life. So, free-will is hardly just a worn-out explanation of good vs evil.

Well, that doesn't contradict what I said unless you agree that a "good" person can get to your "heaven" without accepting Jesus. If he cannot, then he free will to do good was pointless.

It is perfect, I wouldn't change a thing.

Hmmm. Does the name "Liebnitz" ring a bell with you?

Regardless, I am glad that you think the world is perfect. I shouldn't expect to read any posts from you in the future bemoaning any personal or international tragedies, nor the relative state of morality in our country, or anything else that would imply that there is something wrong with the world or the people in it. Otherwise, you would be implying that the world is NOT perfect. September 11th -- I'm glad that at least one person thought it was a perfect day!

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by s0uljah

I sure do disagree with that. Free-will is the foundation of Christian theology. If we didn't have the choice to do good or evil, then what is the point of salvation vs punishment.

Given that a repentant murderer is saved, and an unrepentant gossip isn't, I suspect the point of salvation has only a little to do with the day-to-day application of free will.

 

[LouisBooth]

*mod hat on* please read the forum rules, this is a place to post questions, not a discussion forum. Thanks. *mod hat off*

 

[Ray K]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
*mod hat on* please read the forum rules, this is a place to post questions, not a discussion forum. Thanks. *mod hat off*

oops... sorry!

How am I supposed to respond to the answers? Since Josephus isn't around, could you move this to the Apologetics forum instead?

 

[LouisBooth]

You can open a new thread with it on there. Joesephus will be back. This isn't real time chat, its a message board, ya gotta rememeber that

 

[Josephus]

Again, this is the Ask Josephus forum, not Ask the World forum. If you wish to ask me, please create a new thread and ask me.

I have a really good answer to this if you want to ask me.