Why has Christianity failed in America?

biblelesson

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Just because people and church organizations profess to be Christian, does not mean they are Christian at all.

“A Lamp In the Dark” did a great job on the history of the Bible. It’s focus is on the Chatholic church, which is widely practiced in America, and the main church of influence.

 
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Daniel: “There's a book that may be of interest to you, called "Has American Christianity Failed?" by Bryan Wolfmueller.”

I’ll have to check that out to see if decline attributed to mission drift or trying to pull the arrow of time/evolution out instead of pushing it on through to a deeper, more inclusive/integrated, version of spirituality in the world.
Thanks for the reference.
Darrell Moneyhon
 
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iluvatar5150

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I don't think that the Christian faith does well in times of prosperity.

I agree, and would argue that that jives with the critique of it being an "opiate of the masses." Religion is more popular or more salient when there is some outside force against which to fight (e.g. oppressor, encroaching immorality) and for which we'd have an immediate reason to petition a god for assistance.

But we don't know how to modify our attitude towards religion when things are mostly fine and our material conditions are more-or-less met.

The primary values of America are no longer the sacred, tradition, the family and self-sacrifice, but the profane, personal innovation, the individual and personal advantage.

Those always were the primary values of America - our founding myth is centered around rugged individualism and autonomy. It's a fundamental part of the fight against the crown and our expansion westward.

Yes... those things were indeed evil. But as bad as they were and are, none of them would lead to the extinction of mankind. I suspect, if allowed to continue, because of this behavior, associated behavior, and resultant effects, the species would cease to exist within a century. It is the normalization of this behavior that caused the line to be crossed.

lol wut? That's absurd. The only way the species would cease to exist would be if the entire planet were to turn gay right now, and nobody pursued technological means of procreation. Nuclear war absolutely could lead to the extinction of mankind. Being accommodating of gays will not.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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lol wut? That's absurd. The only way the species would cease to exist would be if the entire planet were to turn gay right now, and nobody pursued technological means of procreation. Nuclear war absolutely could lead to the extinction of mankind. Being accommodating of gays will not.
It is not gays. It is the reaction of the land to abominations. The land itself will rise up and cast out the sin. The land is sick and will vomit out the inhabitants.
But there is the problem of negative population growth, which is already affecting some countries. If the number of children per mother decreases below 2.1, there will not be enough "workers" and taxpayers to replace those who pass. The US is at 1.7. Japan is 1.2. Parts of Europe are 1.5. If not for immigration, some of these would already be losing population. Japan is already losing its population.
 
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DragonFox91

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God is purging the churches of false teachers & false converts that bring a mockery to his name. I think it’s beautiful....or will end up being beautiful: he makes all things new. It goes thru cycles so those who are genuine are built up correctly.

Biblical support of it going thru cycles that rise up genuine believers: Israel in its history
 
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iluvatar5150

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It is not gays. It is the reaction of the land to abominations. The land itself will rise up and cast out the sin. The land is sick and will vomit out the inhabitants.

What are you talking about?


But there is the problem of negative population growth, which is already affecting some countries. If the number of children per mother decreases below 2.1, there will not be enough "workers" and taxpayers to replace those who pass. The US is at 1.7. Japan is 1.2. Parts of Europe are 1.5. If not for immigration, some of these would already be losing population. Japan is already losing its population.
That’s a problem in some countries , sure, but it’s not an existential problem for the species.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Those always were the primary values of America - our founding myth is centered around rugged individualism and autonomy. It's a fundamental part of the fight against the crown and our expansion westward.

.
I guess, yet in the past it wasn't to the level it is now. If the current state of the USA (and the west in general) is the direct result of the founding virtues of the country, then American Christians should reevaluate their commitment to said vision of the world.

American Christians should question their commitment to these enlightenment principles.
 
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DragonFox91

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What does it mean to follow Christ? Isn't it loving service for each other?

So then, how has America failed?
Following Christ is repenting of sin - not just to fellow man, but to yourself & God - & striving towards godliness, for example purity of thoughts, acts, & deeds on a personal level as well. Limiting it to service to fellow man ignores a lot of how we're supposed to act. The best act of loving service you can do & all Christians are asked to do is bring someone to Christ. It's not just giving people things or helping people out b/c materialism solves nothing & most acts we do to others are just temporary: Jesus says to store up treasures eternally. Is America doing this? There's certainly more genuine Christians than what we think, but it's not enough.
 
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iluvatar5150

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I guess, yet in the past it wasn't to the level it is now.

eh. I don’t know about that. Maybe I’m quibbling, but I’d be more inclined to say that it’s just changed form over time. Are people less trusting of and less inclined to participate within institutions now? Absolutely. But at the same time, we’re now less mobile, more urban, and living in a more advanced and specialized economy that fosters greater interdependence. There was a time when it was perfectly normal to pack up your entire life onto a wagon that you’d drive for a thousand miles (or two) just to set up in an empty field somewhere and build a farm out of your bare hands. That would be preposterous today.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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What are you talking about?
Well, this is a Christian website, and as a professing Christian, you should know what the scripture says about these things. I suggest the King James version and the RV. ESword is an excellent Bible application for studying the scriptures. I have used it for years.

Here is some help to get you started.

Leviticus 18:22-28 RV
22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
23 And thou shalt not lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast, to lie down thereto: it is confusion.
24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out from before you:
25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land vomiteth out her inhabitants.
26 Ye therefore shall keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not do any of these abominations; neither the homeborn, nor the stranger that sojourneth among you:
27 (for all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled
28 that the land vomit not you out also, when ye defile it, as it vomited out the nation that was before you.

Leviticus 20:22-23 RV
22 Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, vomit you not out.
23 And ye shall not walk in the customs of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they did all these things, and therefore I abhorred them.

People may not like what these verses say... but this is the cause of many of the catastrophes and disasters we see today. The land is sickened by the wickedness that is taking place, and it is now trying to vomit us out. Vomiting is a natural reaction to poison and disease.

Leviticus 26:43 GNB
43. First, however, the land must be rid of its people, so that it can enjoy its complete rest, and they must pay the full penalty for having rejected my laws and my commands.

Happily, there is cure for land sickness that does not involve casting the people out of the land.

2 Chronicles 7:14 KJV
14. If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
 
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Aviel

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I can't stop thinking about the moral decline America has gone through

Christianity is built on the preaching of and knowledge of God's Grace.

So, in the last 150 yrs, this has been replaced by many false theologies that have subverted the Grace of God so that people in 2023, have no idea what this is..

"The Gospel of the Grace of God" that is "Paul's Gospel".

Real Christianity stands on "Grace through faith", and in the end times there is a great apostasy from and regarding the Gospel of Grace.

So a "Graceless" Christianity is a fake one, and a fake christianity, has no power of God.

And this is why, most believers are taught that you are going to... "sin, confess, and repeat" as if this is Real Christianity.

Its not at all.

Here is the power of Christ.. = "Christ ALWAYS gives me the Victory"..........not "that which i want to do i cant', as is substituted these days as "Christianity".
 
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DragonFox91

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Christianity is built on the preaching of and knowledge of God's Grace.

So, in the last 150 yrs, this has been replaced by many false theologies that have subverted the Grace of God so that people in 2023, have no idea what this is..

"The Gospel of the Grace of God" that is "Paul's Gospel".

Real Christianity stands on "Grace through faith", and in the end times there is a great apostasy from the Gospel of Grace.
Very good, but to that I would add there is an overemphasis on God's grace & not enough of his wrath. You only hear about his love, meaning anything goes, meaning no Gospel. The Gospel has been compromised.

Yes, 'sin, confess, repeat' is another big problem.
 
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dzheremi

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We see so much of the problem of American Christianity™ in this thread with every single person who posts as though because they have a Bible and can read, they know what it's really about, even though their interpretations all contradict each other, and more importantly, contradict the 2,000 years of consistent Christian witness as found in the fathers and mothers of the faith across the world as to what was, is, and always will be normative in the Christian life. This results in a situation where, even though everyone can read and can say that they're "just following the Bible" or whatever, most of the people who take this approach to Christianity don't actually know what they're doing, because it's not based on anything greater than their own private, idiosyncratic interpretation of what a book that was not even meant for them (as it's not meant for any individual to own as their own personal object to use like a dang divining rod in figuring out what's 'really' a part of the religion) says or does not say. Do any of you honestly think that whatever disjunction you're positing between the gospel of this person or that, or that Christianity is disconnected from confession and communion -- even though the scriptures explicitly tell us to participate in both ("Confess your sins to one another", "Unless you eat My flesh and drink My blood, you have no life in you") -- have anything close to a theology let alone praxis that would be in any way recognizable to Christians anywhere in the world before the radical Reformation (not the original reformation, since Luther sought to keep many things that he saw as true in what the RCC of his day practiced and affirmed that later generations of Protestants would throw out for being 'too catholic', like the belief in the real presence of Christ in the sacraments, the affirmation that St. Mary is Theotokos, etc.)?

Put another way: American Christianity (not "Christianity in America") fails because it is absolutely rootless, and there's nothing holding it together or preserving it as being connected to the history of Christianity in any way whatsoever, and the American Christians who continue on in this puddle-deep approach to their own faith actually see that as some kind of asset, somehow....well, not really "somehow", as though we can't know how, but because this is what marks it as the most American of religions, with its "nobody can tell ME what to do with MY Bible and MY interpretation of what Christianity REALLY means" spirit, which is definitely not a spirit of obedience to authority as the believer is to show, but fits in perfectly with the American self-conception of all of us as rugged individualists who are pioneering our own ways of life, and throwing off the shackles of _________ (anything that gets in the way of our self-centered, pseudo-enlightened nonsense). You all remember that from the scripture, right? How Philip encouraged the Ethiopian to read whatever he wanted into the scriptures, because it is his sacred right to believe in whatever nonsense he wants to and brand that as Christianity, if it seems to be so to him, regardless of how whatever he would come up with stacks up against what the actual Christian community teaches, believes, and practices?

And to anyone who might feel the need to respond to this as though I have just personally attacked them, two things: (1) If the shoe fits, you ought to wear it, and (2) "I do said, not know" is perhaps the greatest single statement ever made outside of the scriptures themselves regarding how to read and understand the scriptures in our daily lives. Abba Anthony praised Abba Joseph for coming to that conclusion, and we ought to as well, and more than that, we ought to do the same. It is amazing how much time and energy you can free up to actually do things when you embrace that your intellect and ego is not the center of the gosh-danged universe. American Christianity's™ fatal flaw is that because it is in theory 'Bible-only' (though there are enough best-selling Evangelical-authored commentaries of various sorts to show that it is not so in practice), the reply to all this is more likely to be "Abba who? What does a Swedish disco group from the 70s have to do with Christianity?" (or probably some complaint about how the post is too long to read) than actually considering that anything from before they were alive could in any way be instructive in the normative belief and practice of the Christian faith. (With certain exceptions possibly made for things like a favorite reference Bible from the 1800s or a radio preacher from the 1940s or whatever they feel ought to be the exception to not listening to anyone about anything.)
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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"nobody can tell ME what to do with MY Bible and MY interpretation of what Christianity REALLY means" spirit, which is definitely not a spirit of obedience to authority as the believer is to show, but fits in perfectly with the American self-conception of all of us as rugged individualists who are pioneering our own ways of life, and throwing off the shackles of _________ (anything that gets in the way of our self-centered, pseudo-enlightened nonsense).
Wooo! Telling it like it is, dzheremi!

I am printing that out to read more carefully. Stay tuned for more comment.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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This post seems to be relevant on several thread.

"It is really a matter of mature civility and that involves listening skills and empathy."

Or Christ would say, "love one another", Feed the hungry, clothe the naked,...", "remove the mote in your own eye before the speck in your neighbor's eye." I could go on.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Love the news of the Albigensis , I don't know if I heard of them before -
they had "extensive knowledge (truthfully) of the Scripture" and thus refuted many errors.

The Cathars, aka the Albingenses, were a heretical sect that at one point held a lot of popular support in southern France. Theirs was a form of medieval Gnosticism, and they were likely related to, or at least influenced by, the Balkan Bogomils; who in turn were probably influenced/related to the Paulicians of Armenia.

Gnosticism, as a complex religious system (or collection of religious systems and ideas) never died in antiquity.

Mani, the 3rd century founder-prophet of the Manichaean religion, was a member of a Judeo-Christian Gnostic sect known as the Elchasites. Manichaeanism was a Gnostic religion influenced by "Christian" Gnosticism, and likely also with some Persian Zoroastrian and Buddhist influences, as it was a Silk Road religion. Manichaeanism became extremely popular in late antiquity. St. Augustine of Hippo, though raised by a Christian mother, spent his young adult life as a member of their sect until he became disillusioned with them and (by the grace of God) came back tot he Lord and became the most influential theologian of the entire Western Church (he remains known even today as The Doctor of Grace because of his tireless effort in talking about the grace of God in our salvation). But the Manichaean Church was not only present in Persia and in the Roman Empire, it spread far and wide throughout Central Asia and China. Until the rise of Islam and the conversion of many Turkic and Mongolic peoples to Islam, Central Asia was a religiously diverse region with Christians, Jews, Manichaeans, Buddhists, and also followers of indigenous religious such as Tengriism.

So it is not surprising that Manichaeanism, as well as other late-antiquity and early medieval Gnostic religious movements continued, and continued to be influential. Some even continue to exist into modern times, the Yazidis, Druze, and Mandaeans are all modern Gnostic religions in the Middle East.

While the Paulicians of Armenia are still hotly debated, as not much is known; there is a distinct possibility that the Paulicians were influenced by the Manichaeans; as the Paulicians were likely a dualistic sect maintaining a belief in two cosmic principles of good and evil. Paulicians were resettled in Bulgaria, where Bogomilism began. The Bogomils, like the Paulicians and Manichaeans, were dualists; holding that God created only the spiritual world, while Satan was the creator of the evil material world. Like the Bogomils, the Cathars also maintained a dualistic view, a pretty strongly Marcionite one at that: That there were two Gods, the good God of the New Testament and the evil God of the Old Testament. The Cathars held to a strict spiritual hierarchy, with regular followers and the "elect" who were a more spiritual sort (mirroring practices similar to Manichaeanism).

The idea that the Cathars, Bogomils, Paulicians, et al in any way represent a "True Christianity" is pure hogwash invented by the imagination of certain anti-Catholic thinkers in the 19th century and is generally associated with Landmarkism and other related tosh.

Further reading:


-CryptoLutheran
 
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Matt5

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I am unable to edit my post, but I had one more thought. If economic prosperity, opportunity and abundance of idolatry options is really the reason for the failure of the church to actively stem the tide of evil, more than the failure of the church itself, than the other thing that could potentially lead to mass acceptance of religion and societal change could be the collapse of America economically. Many of us know from our personal lives that we only turned to God when things got really bad. If America had the rug pulled out from underneath it and had to start eating bugs overnight, maybe the attitude would change without even needing to change faith expressions. However, in the book of Revelation, we see that the majority of humanity curses God despite the plagues falling from heaven being clear proof of his existence. So, it can go either way!

Gentle reminder. Islam is a demonic religion.

Islam denies that Jesus is the son of God. It denies that he died on the cross.

In Islamic prophecy, there is the future arrival of the Mahdi and Jesus. This Jesus is Islamic. The (Islamic) Mahdi looks a lot like the Antichrist, and the (Islamic) Jesus looks a lot like the false prophet.

The Mahdi and the Antichrist - YouTube

The mark of the beast looks a lot like the name of Allah in Arabic with two crossed swords underneath:

The Path to 666 | Christian Forums
 
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We see so much of the problem of American Christianity™ in this thread with every single person who posts as though because they have a Bible and can read, they know what it's really about, even though their interpretations all contradict each other, and more importantly, contradict the 2,000 years of consistent Christian witness as found in the fathers and mothers of the faith across the world as to what was, is, and always will be normative in the Christian life. This results in a situation where, even though everyone can read and can say that they're "just following the Bible" or whatever, most of the people who take this approach to Christianity don't actually know what they're doing, because it's not based on anything greater than their own private, idiosyncratic interpretation of what a book that was not even meant for them (as it's not meant for any individual to own as their own personal object to use like a dang divining rod in figuring out what's 'really' a part of the religion) says or does not say. Do any of you honestly think that whatever disjunction you're positing between the gospel of this person or that, or that Christianity is disconnected from confession and communion -- even though the scriptures explicitly tell us to participate in both ("Confess your sins to one another", "Unless you eat My flesh and drink My blood, you have no life in you") -- have anything close to a theology let alone praxis that would be in any way recognizable to Christians anywhere in the world before the radical Reformation (not the original reformation, since Luther sought to keep many things that he saw as true in what the RCC of his day practiced and affirmed that later generations of Protestants would throw out for being 'too catholic', like the belief in the real presence of Christ in the sacraments, the affirmation that St. Mary is Theotokos, etc.)?

Put another way: American Christianity (not "Christianity in America") fails because it is absolutely rootless, and there's nothing holding it together or preserving it as being connected to the history of Christianity in any way whatsoever, and the American Christians who continue on in this puddle-deep approach to their own faith actually see that as some kind of asset, somehow....well, not really "somehow", as though we can't know how, but because this is what marks it as the most American of religions, with its "nobody can tell ME what to do with MY Bible and MY interpretation of what Christianity REALLY means" spirit, which is definitely not a spirit of obedience to authority as the believer is to show, but fits in perfectly with the American self-conception of all of us as rugged individualists who are pioneering our own ways of life, and throwing off the shackles of _________ (anything that gets in the way of our self-centered, pseudo-enlightened nonsense). You all remember that from the scripture, right? How Philip encouraged the Ethiopian to read whatever he wanted into the scriptures, because it is his sacred right to believe in whatever nonsense he wants to and brand that as Christianity, if it seems to be so to him, regardless of how whatever he would come up with stacks up against what the actual Christian community teaches, believes, and practices?

And to anyone who might feel the need to respond to this as though I have just personally attacked them, two things: (1) If the shoe fits, you ought to wear it, and (2) "I do said, not know" is perhaps the greatest single statement ever made outside of the scriptures themselves regarding how to read and understand the scriptures in our daily lives. Abba Anthony praised Abba Joseph for coming to that conclusion, and we ought to as well, and more than that, we ought to do the same. It is amazing how much time and energy you can free up to actually do things when you embrace that your intellect and ego is not the center of the gosh-danged universe. American Christianity's™ fatal flaw is that because it is in theory 'Bible-only' (though there are enough best-selling Evangelical-authored commentaries of various sorts to show that it is not so in practice), the reply to all this is more likely to be "Abba who? What does a Swedish disco group from the 70s have to do with Christianity?" (or probably some complaint about how the post is too long to read) than actually considering that anything from before they were alive could in any way be instructive in the normative belief and practice of the Christian faith. (With certain exceptions possibly made for things like a favorite reference Bible from the 1800s or a radio preacher from the 1940s or whatever they feel ought to be the exception to not listening to anyone about anything.)

I don't have a robust or fully fleshed out way to talk about what I'm about to talk about, but I'm going to try and talk about this anyway.

Over the past, oh, decade or so-ish there's something I've observed. Traditionally, or classically, the way we talk about Christianity in broad terms tends to follow what I'll call the Trichotomist Model; we tend to organize Christianity under three broad headings: Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Protestantism. There are caveats to this, because "Orthodoxy" can be sub-divided into the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox; so we might instead speak of four, rather than three; and sometimes Anglicanism is split off from Protestantism. But that's mostly beside the point. Generally this is how we categorize, organize, and classify the big umbrellas of Christianity. Protestantism being the most complicated, convoluted, and mixed bag because we are talking about tens of dozens of denominations and/or traditions. Lutheranism isn't Methodism, for example; but both are Protestant.

In a lot of ways, this is helpful. But in a lot of ways, it isn't.

I've observed that, in many ways--and this has been put into the spotlight for me many times on places like Christian Forums where things get especially highlighted--that we can talk of a Dichotomist Model of Christianity.

In this Dichotomist Model I'd argue that we can talk about Historic Christianity; that Christianity that is concerned with the historic norms of the Christian religion; a strong belief in the Historic Creeds/Confessions, with historic theology and maintaining a continuance with the faith as it has been practiced down through the centuries. While Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans, et al will all have highly diverse views on lots of things; there is nevertheless a sense that all have about continuing within established Christian norms. There is no attempt to re-invent the wheel. The Nicene Creed says what it says, and we believe it. We consider the teachings of our fathers as important, therefore we insist (as an example) that the Virgin Mary is the mother of God because we understand that the theological controversies surrounding Nestorius are already settled, and that our Christology (even though Chalcedonians and Non-Chalcedonians use different words) is established and settled.

On the other side, and I'm not sure of what term to use here to describe it, is that form of Christianity that is what you describe above. A highly individualistic "me and the Bible" approach to religion. Tradition is regarded as a purely ugly and negative concept (even though there is tradition at work here too, even if it is a different kind of tradition). Religion is an individualistic activity of me forming my own doctrines by my private reading and interpretation of the Bible.

Now, the caveat I'm going to give here is that what I outlined above is a broad generalization that is often hyperbolic (but not always). As I would also argue that there is what could be described as a modern "Theological Canon"--a set of standards that is rooted in that kind of indivudalistic religiosity but which is more cohesive. Rooted in 18th and especially 19th and early 20th century religious movements and traditions; such as Revivalism and American Pietism (which could be considered highly distinct from Historic Pietism). But within this Theological Canon we can talk about the "fathers" of this form of Christianity. Charles Finney, Billy Sunday, Bill Bright, and even Billy Graham.

I do not wish to treat this as exclusive to Neo-Evangelicalism; I think it is broader than that and deeper than that. It's not even exclusively American. The Plymouth Brethren, for example, I'd argue are part of this--but they emerged in the British Isles. I do think that, though not distinctively American, it is something that seems peculiar to the Anglosphere. And it is not exclusively super-modern, I think a lot of the ideas I'm talking about are religious expressions and sentiments that have some of their origins in the Radical Reformation of the 16th century, and given the Anglo-specific nature of it (at least from my vantage point) can also go back to the Nonconformist movements of the 17th century in Great Britain.

Perhaps, at least for the time being, I'll refer to this distinction as "Old Church" and "New Church"; though that may not be helpful either.

As I said, I'm still trying to figure out my own thoughts--and I want to keep studying and doing more homework on this subject matter. But I do think this is a very real division that exists within the state of Christianity: There is that form of Christianity that is concerned with the past to shape its present; and there is that form of Christianity that, in general, sees the past as either unimportant or even seen as a hindrance. And in a lot of ways, that division/distinction is far more important and functionally relevant than the classical models of dividing/categorizing Christianity. As a Lutheran, for example, I feel like I have a lot more in common with Catholics and Orthodox than I do with Baptists or Pentecostals (as just an example); even though Lutherans, Baptists, and Pentecostals are all "Protestant".

-CryptoLutheran
 
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