Who is Responsible?

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Not necessarily in just a superficial causal way. I'm getting more at ultimate responsibility. What should be praised or blamed for the various events, good and bad, that happen in our lives?

Natural events happen in the world as a result of natural laws; I see no rational benefit in attributing praise or blame for them, although there may be some emotional comfort in superstitious attribution of praise or blame to imaginary powers or forces.

I'm not a great fan of ideas of attributing moral responsibility for human action, except to the extent that it has demonstrable future social benefits, i.e. it encourages beneficial actions, or deters from harmful actions. Evidence suggests that blame is not particularly effective in this respect, and can be counter-productive; there are more effective ways of modifying behaviour to social benefit, although they may require some sublimation of the desires for revenge and/or retribution. Praise does have the benefit of a feel-good factor for both praiser and praised.

I think individuals should take greater personal responsibility for their actions, acknowledging that there are known risks - predictable and unpredictable, and unknown risks, in life. This might go some way to mitigating the individual's desire to blame. There are usually ways an individual can reduce potential risk, but there is a pragmatic balance, and risk can't be eliminated.

 

[durangodawood]

what about...

5. Supernatural agency thats not 'divine' but instead malevolent or at least undesirable.
"Diabolical agency", I suppose.

 

[Tree of Life]

what about...

5. Supernatural agency thats not 'divine' but instead malevolent or at least undesirable.
"Diabolical agency", I suppose.

Yes I realized this morning that I neglected this one.

 

[Tree of Life]

Mostly fate, but there is some possible chance due to quantum indeterminancy.

How does this play out in your relationships? When someone treats you unjustly do you seek justice? Or do you simply chalk it up to fate and accept fate? Do you attempt to resist fate or fight against fate when things aren't turning out in your favor?

 

[Tree of Life]

I'd call that chance, rather than fate.

The difference between chance and fate as I'm using the terms is complete randomness versus causal determinism. They are similar in that both are impersonal and neither of them care about your well being. But they are different in that chance can be avoided and is not certain whereas fate cannot be avoided and is certain.

 

[Tree of Life]

Natural events happen in the world as a result of natural laws; I see no rational benefit in attributing praise or blame for them, although there may be some emotional comfort in superstitious attribution of praise or blame to imaginary powers or forces.

Please define "natural event".

I'm not a great fan of ideas of attributing moral responsibility for human action, except to the extent that it has demonstrable future social benefits, i.e. it encourages beneficial actions, or deters from harmful actions. Evidence suggests that blame is not particularly effective in this respect, and can be counter-productive; there are more effective ways of modifying behaviour to social benefit, although they may require some sublimation of the desires for revenge and/or retribution. Praise does have the benefit of a feel-good factor for both praiser and praised.

So justice is not a concern of yours?

If some neighbor breaks a window in your house are you concerned about establishing blame so that you don't have to pay for it? Or do you just eat the cost?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Please define "natural event".

Some event where the influence of man is not apparent or significant.

So justice is not a concern of yours?

I didn't mention justice, but I do think it's important. We probably differ about what is just in particular circumstances.

If some neighbor breaks a window in your house are you concerned about establishing blame so that you don't have to pay for it? Or do you just eat the cost?

Knowing the inherent risks of owning a house, I have taken out house insurance. But I would want to know who was responsible and why so I could take further appropriate action if necessary. I don't think blame (except in the purely legal sense) is a particularly positive or beneficial concept.

 

[durangodawood]

Yes I realized this morning that I neglected this one.

Or you could wrap up divine and diabolical agency into the single category "supernatural agency"...?

 

[Davian]

Not necessarily in just a superficial causal way. I'm getting more at ultimate responsibility. What should be praised or blamed for the various events, good and bad, that happen in our lives?

I cannot even make sense of this question.

Who or what should be praised for me having great health at 50? Or blamed for my coworker getting diabetes in his twenties?

Who do I thank for my numbers coming up in the local lottery? Who do I thank for how I randomly(?) picked the numbers to play?

 

[Chany]

How does this play out in your relationships? When someone treats you unjustly do you seek justice? Or do you simply chalk it up to fate and accept fate? Do you attempt to resist fate or fight against fate when things aren't turning out in your favor?

Fate includes my actions under determinism. You are asking how I would respond to fate as if I were seperate from it. Life just happens.

Ultimately, people cannot held responsible for their actions, so I should not seek retributive justice. Obviously, no one can live that perfectly.

 

[Tree of Life]

Ultimately, people cannot held responsible for their actions, so I should not seek retributive justice. Obviously, no one can live that perfectly.

So do you think that when we're rear-ended in an auto collision and the other driver is at fault that we should not pursue them and their insurance company for compensation?

 

[Tree of Life]

Who or what should be praised for me having great health at 50? Or blamed for my coworker getting diabetes in his twenties?

Exactly. Who or what is responsible for this? Do you have great health because you've made responsible decisions to take care of yourself? Did your coworker get diabetes because of bad habits?

Who do I thank for my numbers coming up in the local lottery? Who do I thank for how I randomly(?) picked the numbers to play?

This would depend on your view of responsibility. You obviously would not thank God. But perhaps you'd thank your lucky stars?

 

[Paradoxum]

The difference between chance and fate as I'm using the terms is complete randomness versus causal determinism. They are similar in that both are impersonal and neither of them care about your well being. But they are different in that chance can be avoided and is not certain whereas fate cannot be avoided and is certain.

For me, fate is something controlled by gods, or supernatural power like karma. Events directed with a purpose, with a specific outcome in aimed for.

By chance I meant physical laws (just how things turn out). But chance and determinism are perhaps a clearer way of phrasing it.

(If you google the word 'fate' it will include the definition that it is predetermined by a supernatural power).

 

[Paradoxum]

The initial setup might not be random, so the outcome is fated to happen. Chance makes it sound like every outcome is like rolling a dice: that's not how it works.

I'd call that determinism.

I understand how chance can sound like that, but I meant determinism. I meant things are as they are just because that's how things turned out. There was no plan.

Rolls of the dice are determined anyway.

Fate tends to mean controlled by a supernatural power.

 

[FireDragon76]

Human and divine agency. Humans try to do their thing, God puts his spin on it.

 

[ScottA]

It seems to me that there are at least four views for who or what is ultimately responsible for the events that happen in our lives. They are, generally speaking:

1. Chance
2. Fate
3. Human Agency
4. Divine Agency

Not that any one person holds exclusively to one view of responsibility. Surely there's an admixture within each of us as to who we hold responsible.

Are there any sources of responsibility that I'm missing? Who do you hold ultimately responsible for your life and the events that happen therein?

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." John 3:6

The flesh lives and dies in the world, so if the question pertains to life in the world, then 1, 2, and 3 are at liberty under God.

However, the spirit, is not of humanity, nor of the world...thus, those born [again] of the spirit of God only suffer under the world for a time, but nonetheless rise to glory by God.

 

[Chany]

So do you think that when we're rear-ended in an auto collision and the other driver is at fault that we should not pursue them and their insurance company for compensation?

I'm not sure, given the necessity of auto-repair. However I think systems of blame and responsibility are ultimately flawed and need to be revised.

 

[Chriliman]

I'd call that determinism.

I understand how chance can sound like that, but I meant determinism. I meant things are as they are just because that's how things turned out. There was no plan.

Rolls of the dice are determined anyway.

Fate tends to mean controlled by a supernatural power.

If there is no plan or purpose then how can we explain the order that we find in the universe that we did not put there ourselves?

 

[Tinker Grey]

Order isn't a thing. It's a description. To say something has order is to say that humans infer a pattern.

 

[Davian]

Exactly. Who or what is responsible for this? Do you have great health because you've made responsible decisions to take care of yourself?

In part perhaps. I have heard it said that the best way to be healthy is to pick your parents carefully. I do not recall being offered such a choice.

Did your coworker get diabetes because of bad habits?

Not that I am aware of. It is my understanding that the direct cause of diabetes is unclear.

This would depend on your view of responsibility. You obviously would not thank God. But perhaps you'd thank your lucky stars?

I don't think I believe in 'luck'.

In this instance, I cut up a bunch of numbered paper squares, my wife and I alternately pulled them from a plastic bag, and I played the resulting combination on a yearly subscription basis. After a few years, success.

Do I thank the "lucky" plastic bag? My wife for participating in the selection process? The friend that introduced me to the woman I would eventually marry?

Your question still seems bizarre to me.