Was there death before the Fall?

[Demetrius B]

Hello!
I decided to join this forum hoping to find the asnwers nobody has given me yet.
I've been a Christian since 2017 (received water baptism that year, but became a believer earlier), and I was very zealous in my faith several years since then. Until I gradually strated thinking over certain questions and noticing things I had not been noticing before.

For example, the Bible says that the world was created in 6 days - I had no problem with this, until I started thinking about this deeper. In six days? With the creation of the stars on the third day? Even if the stars were created on the first day, the light from them would not have reached the earth up until today (except for the sun's light). I searched a lot of information and explanations about this, and what I found more or less plausible is the theory saying, while only six days passed on earth, millions of years passed in the space/cosmos, because the time flows with different speeds.

But, anyway, that's a whole another topic, I just mentioned it to show you what kind of stuff I pondered about, and today I would like to ask a different question.

I have been okay with the thought that there was no death before the fall at all - not even animal death. But then, when I thought about it deeper, I said, "hey, wait a minute. Do you really think that not any single organism died before the flood, even a germ? Even a mosquito at Adam's shoulder? When Adam and Eve walked around Eden, didn't they occasionally squezze some bugs in the grass to death?"
That made no sense to me. It's impossible that not a single organism could die. Were worms supposed to live forever?
But I found some explanations about this. Some creationist commentators say that there are some so called "non-nephesh animals", like insects. Here's an article I found - God Created Insects - Today's Creation Moment
According to this view, insects did not have the blessing to live forever. Earlier I came across a creationist article which called instects "bio robots"
While I partly agree with this approach, this still creates a problem for me.
If animals (at least cerain categories) died before the Fall, death was in the original plan of God. If death was okay, that violence was okay too. What other purpose than killing and eating flesh was for a shark in God's original plan?
If death and violence was from the beginning, even before the Fall, than God was the author of death and suffering, and the whole creation story and the message of the Bible loses its sence. On the other hand, how was it possible that there would be no death at all for all living organisms, ever (if the Fall hadn't happened)?
That's a great dilemma for me.
The world we live in, with its animal life and how the life functions, just doesn't fit into ideal world God created as depeicted in Genesis 1, and it doesn't matter that the Fall happened. I mean, for the world to be ideal and excluding death altogether, that must have been some very different world with quite a different fauna and laws of life.
I just need to figure it out, and I hope you will help me.

 

[Qubit]

There was no death before the Fall...

Romans 5:12
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned"

The universe was very different before Man sinned. The Fall cursed the ground, which could mean a lot of things.

I believe the prelapsarian universe was more of a 'spirit' realm than a physical realm like we exist in now.

Using simple exegesis, we can deduce that the Tree of Life does not grow where there is death. That is a major clue right there.

 

[Sir Joseph]

I understand your point, but suggest that one can't judge the Bible's truth based upon a premise of understanding every potential underlying detail. There's simply too many events that have happened in this universe's history for us to know or understand how everything happened. We learn a lot through science, history, and the Bible, but realistacally remain perplexed on many issues.

Death arising with the fall of Adam is an important doctrine that's consistent with sin, our need for a savior, and the Gospel message. I know Christian apologists use this issue to help counter evolutionary theory, and I myself tend to believe that the animals were included with humans in the effects of sin upon the world. Truthfully, I never tried to carry out this doctrine into deeper understanding of how far down the development stage of life forms it went. As stated above, that may be a dividing line of detail that we can't know - and don't need to know or understand. The big picture is certainly prioritizing man's relationship to God that was affected by sin. Anything beyond that quickly develops into conjecture.

I might add another thought on whether animals, be it some or all, would have been free from death before the fall. Consider heaven or the new world to come. It appears that there will be animals, and I'd expect them to be free from death there just like humans. Whatever perfect new world, free from death, that God's planned for the future could certainly have existed with the initial creation.

 

[tdidymas]

Hello!
I decided to join this forum hoping to find the asnwers nobody has given me yet.
I've been a Christian since 2017 (received water baptism that year, but became a believer earlier), and I was very zealous in my faith several years since then. Until I gradually strated thinking over certain questions and noticing things I had not been noticing before.

For example, the Bible says that the world was created in 6 days - I had no problem with this, until I started thinking about this deeper. In six days? With the creation of the stars on the third day? Even if the stars were created on the first day, the light from them would not have reached the earth up until today (except for the sun's light). I searched a lot of information and explanations about this, and what I found more or less plausible is the theory saying, while only six days passed on earth, millions of years passed in the space/cosmos, because the time flows with different speeds.

But, anyway, that's a whole another topic, I just mentioned it to show you what kind of stuff I pondered about, and today I would like to ask a different question.

I have been okay with the thought that there was no death before the fall at all - not even animal death. But then, when I thought about it deeper, I said, "hey, wait a minute. Do you really think that not any single organism died before the flood, even a germ? Even a mosquito at Adam's shoulder? When Adam and Eve walked around Eden, didn't they occasionally squezze some bugs in the grass to death?"
That made no sense to me. It's impossible that not a single organism could die. Were worms supposed to live forever?
But I found some explanations about this. Some creationist commentators say that there are some so called "non-nephesh animals", like insects. Here's an article I found - God Created Insects - Today's Creation Moment
According to this view, insects did not have the blessing to live forever. Earlier I came across a creationist article which called instects "bio robots"
While I partly agree with this approach, this still creates a problem for me.
If animals (at least cerain categories) died before the Fall, death was in the original plan of God. If death was okay, that violence was okay too. What other purpose than killing and eating flesh was for a shark in God's original plan?
If death and violence was from the beginning, even before the Fall, than God was the author of death and suffering, and the whole creation story and the message of the Bible loses its sence. On the other hand, how was it possible that there would be no death at all for all living organisms, ever (if the Fall hadn't happened)?
That's a great dilemma for me.
The world we live in, with its animal life and how the life functions, just doesn't fit into ideal world God created as depeicted in Genesis 1, and it doesn't matter that the Fall happened. I mean, for the world to be ideal and excluding death altogether, that must have been some very different world with quite a different fauna and laws of life.
I just need to figure it out, and I hope you will help me.

1. If there was no animal death in the garden, then how could Adam understand what "die" meant? If what happens physically is a type of what happens spiritually, then Adam understood God to mean spiritual death, since he was not deceived according to Paul in 1 Tim. 2:14. If Adam could not die in the garden, then why was there a tree of life, and why did God exile Adam from the garden for the purpose of disallowing him to eat from the tree of life? Therefore, it was possible for Adam to die a natural death in the garden, and it was possible for him to live forever by eating from the tree of life.
2. It is presumptuous to assume that Adam's "death" was physical, since God said "in the day that you eat of it, you shall surely die." "In the day" means that day, it doesn't mean 1000 years later. It says he would die the day he eats of it, it doesn't say "begin to die" or any such thing. Therefore, God meant spiritual death, and spiritual death is what Paul was talking about in Rom. 5. It is difficult to distinguish in that chapter, because Jesus' physical death redeems us from spiritual death (not physical death). But John in 1 John says that we "have" eternal life already, meaning we cannot die a spiritual death again. He is obviously talking about spiritual life, because the physical death rate is still 100%.

Therefore, to claim that natural death was not possible (or did not happen) before the fall is presumptuous and speculative. I recommend this book which explains how God could easily have anticipated the fall of man, and created the world as it is today: Amazon.com

In the same way, it is presumptuous, speculative, and naive to impose modern science into a reading of Gen. 1. I recommend this book which explains that God made the Earth as a temple, and that Gen. 1 is an Ancient Near East document on how the "temple" was built: Amazon.com

The Bible is not a science textbook, and should not be read as such. For example, Gen. 2 begs the questions, how could the serpent talk, and why is crawling on its belly its curse when that's what it does? John explains that Satan is "the serpent of old," therefore, there is symbolism in Genesis, and crass literalists could be wrong in their assessment of it. For example, it is faulty interpretation to make up doctrines from silence. The idea that God could have changed the physical nature of the serpent is an argument from silence, because the Bible simply does not say nor imply it. IMO it's not a good idea to impose knowledge of modern science on a reading of ancient literature. Christianity does NOT stand or fall on someone's interpretation of Gen. 1.

 

[Yarddog]

Hello!
I decided to join this forum hoping to find the asnwers nobody has given me yet.
I've been a Christian since 2017 (received water baptism that year, but became a believer earlier), and I was very zealous in my faith several years since then. Until I gradually strated thinking over certain questions and noticing things I had not been noticing before.

For example, the Bible says that the world was created in 6 days - I had no problem with this, until I started thinking about this deeper. In six days? With the creation of the stars on the third day? Even if the stars were created on the first day, the light from them would not have reached the earth up until today (except for the sun's light). I searched a lot of information and explanations about this, and what I found more or less plausible is the theory saying, while only six days passed on earth, millions of years passed in the space/cosmos, because the time flows with different speeds.

But, anyway, that's a whole another topic, I just mentioned it to show you what kind of stuff I pondered about, and today I would like to ask a different question.

I have been okay with the thought that there was no death before the fall at all - not even animal death. But then, when I thought about it deeper, I said, "hey, wait a minute. Do you really think that not any single organism died before the flood, even a germ? Even a mosquito at Adam's shoulder? When Adam and Eve walked around Eden, didn't they occasionally squezze some bugs in the grass to death?"
That made no sense to me. It's impossible that not a single organism could die. Were worms supposed to live forever?
But I found some explanations about this. Some creationist commentators say that there are some so called "non-nephesh animals", like insects. Here's an article I found - God Created Insects - Today's Creation Moment
According to this view, insects did not have the blessing to live forever. Earlier I came across a creationist article which called instects "bio robots"
While I partly agree with this approach, this still creates a problem for me.
If animals (at least cerain categories) died before the Fall, death was in the original plan of God. If death was okay, that violence was okay too. What other purpose than killing and eating flesh was for a shark in God's original plan?
If death and violence was from the beginning, even before the Fall, than God was the author of death and suffering, and the whole creation story and the message of the Bible loses its sence. On the other hand, how was it possible that there would be no death at all for all living organisms, ever (if the Fall hadn't happened)?
That's a great dilemma for me.
The world we live in, with its animal life and how the life functions, just doesn't fit into ideal world God created as depeicted in Genesis 1, and it doesn't matter that the Fall happened. I mean, for the world to be ideal and excluding death altogether, that must have been some very different world with quite a different fauna and laws of life.
I just need to figure it out, and I hope you will help me.

Over the 40 years, since my baptism, God has been opening my eyes to a deeper understanding of the book of
Genesis. It brought me to a greater and deeper faith in the wonders of our God. These are things which one cannot understand unless God reveals them through his Spirit.

Paul tells us of the allegorical meaning of Sarah and Hagar but there are others. As for Eden, it refers to the state of righteousness where man must be created by God.. Born again in his image.

Jesus Christ is the Tree of Life which God's children may eat the fruit of and live forever.

THe Tree of Knowledge is the Mosaic law. Adam and Eve are the Hebrew people that placed themselves under the Law because they failed to believe as their father Abraham had. Just as the antichrists were condemned in the NT for turning away from Jesus and back to the Mosaic law, Adam and Eve were cast out of righteousness through believing by eating the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge.

Adam was condemned to work the land which refers to dead works, which produce thorns and thistles. A Cherubim was placed to guard the entrance to Eden( righteousness) because one cannot have righteousness through faith and also try to work to achieve it

Our Lord Jesus is wonderful and he is the Light of Genesis 1.

God bless

 

[Joseph G]

We learn a lot through science, history, and the Bible, but realistacally remain perplexed on many issues.

Totally agree. It can be edifying to contemplate how to reconcile the three, but caution that remaining stumped on an issue shouldn't become a stumbling block to our faith. In some things it's wise to take David's attitude:

Psalm 139:1-6 NIV

"LORD, you have searched me and you know me. You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways. Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD. You hem me in--behind and before; you have laid your hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me, too lofty for me to attain."

Truthfully, I never tried to carry out this doctrine into deeper understanding of how far down the development stage of life forms it went. As stated above, that may be a dividing line of detail that we can't know - and don't need to know or understand. The big picture is certainly prioritizing man's relationship to God that was affected by sin. Anything beyond that quickly develops into conjecture.

Amen!

 

[Diamond7]

Do you really think that not any single organism died before the flood, even a germ

Something has to die in order for something to be born. Plants have to die for us to live. It is called the cycle of life. We can learn this much in a Disney movie. What we call germs breaks life down so it can create new life. Even we have bacteria in our digestive system to help us break down our food so our body enzymes can process and use that food. We started off as pond scum and we had to work our way up from there.

 

[KevinT]

Hello!
I decided to join this forum hoping to find the asnwers nobody has given me yet.
I've been a Christian since 2017 (received water baptism that year, but became a believer earlier), and I was very zealous in my faith several years since then. Until I gradually strated thinking over certain questions and noticing things I had not been noticing before.

For example, the Bible says that the world was created in 6 days - I had no problem with this, until I started thinking about this deeper. In six days? With the creation of the stars on the third day? Even if the stars were created on the first day, the light from them would not have reached the earth up until today (except for the sun's light). I searched a lot of information and explanations about this, and what I found more or less plausible is the theory saying, while only six days passed on earth, millions of years passed in the space/cosmos, because the time flows with different speeds.

There are a variety of ways that this is considered. There is quite a vigorous debate on the age of the earth going on right now on this thread.

Regarding the creation of the stars on the 3rd day, "6 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars." I have always understood that the part about the stars was addressing the issue that He made them, not that He made them on that same day.

The idea that I have been pursing lately is the idea of: ancient universe creation --> ancient creation of the earth --> recent rebellion/sin on earth.

But, anyway, that's a whole another topic, I just mentioned it to show you what kind of stuff I pondered about, and today I would like to ask a different question.

I have been okay with the thought that there was no death before the fall at all - not even animal death. But then, when I thought about it deeper, I said, "hey, wait a minute. Do you really think that not any single organism died before the flood, even a germ? Even a mosquito at Adam's shoulder? When Adam and Eve walked around Eden, didn't they occasionally squezze some bugs in the grass to death?"
That made no sense to me. It's impossible that not a single organism could die. Were worms supposed to live forever?
But I found some explanations about this. Some creationist commentators say that there are some so called "non-nephesh animals", like insects. Here's an article I found - God Created Insects - Today's Creation Moment
According to this view, insects did not have the blessing to live forever. Earlier I came across a creationist article which called instects "bio robots"
While I partly agree with this approach, this still creates a problem for me.
If animals (at least cerain categories) died before the Fall, death was in the original plan of God. If death was okay, that violence was okay too. What other purpose than killing and eating flesh was for a shark in God's original plan?

Romans 5:12 says: 12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men[a] because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

I think that traditional religious thought will use this statement, or others like it, to insist that there was no death before sin entered the world. I, on the other hand, would argue that Paul is talking about human death, in the sense of a human ceasing to walk, talk, think. But even parts of a live human are constantly dying. Think about our skin cells, esp after a sunburn on the beach. The cells die and peel off, to be renewed by fresh growth underneath. Our body is a constant battle ground between our immune cells and invader organisms (bacteria, viruses, fungi), and even against our own cells that have grown old and are due for replacement. Think also about our bones. There are one group of cells that do nothing but tear down existing bone structure (osteoclasts), and other group that do nothing but build up new bone structure (osteoblasts). And it is the interplay between creation and destruction that keeps the bones strong but not brittle.

As you point out, the entire ecosystem of God's creation that we seen on the earth is one of cyclic birth and destruction, life and death. And while is it is more pleasant to think about nothing ever dying, one can see God's wisdom of constant rebirth and renewal. Survival of the fittest seems to be a fundamental natural law and it has done very well in keeping God's creation strong and thriving. It is possible that there was a completely different system at play on God's earth before rebellion, and that God then came down and reprogrammed how the entire ecosystem works -- but that seems unlikely to me.

If death and violence was from the beginning, even before the Fall, than God was the author of death and suffering, and the whole creation story and the message of the Bible loses its sence. On the other hand, how was it possible that there would be no death at all for all living organisms, ever (if the Fall hadn't happened)?

When a woman gives birth to a child, and is having great pain, one might wonder why God is being so cruel. Why make her have such difficulty with labor? But I have been told that the birth of a child makes it worth it for most women. And it helps make that same mother to become fiercely protective of her offspring -- thus helping the propagation of our species.

So when thinking of God as the "author of death and suffering", perhaps this needs to be re-framed? Yes there can be sorrow and discomfort, but the overall purpose is love and flourishing of life. I wrote a fanciful post here about the idea that if one considers things from the past to be packages of information, and if they could be recreated in the future, then it allows us to think about death in a different light.

That's a great dilemma for me.
The world we live in, with its animal life and how the life functions, just doesn't fit into ideal world God created as depeicted in Genesis 1, and it doesn't matter that the Fall happened. I mean, for the world to be ideal and excluding death altogether, that must have been some very different world with quite a different fauna and laws of life.
I just need to figure it out, and I hope you will help me.

God gave us brains with problem-solving ability. We take facts that don't appear to make sense and we struggle with them. Hopefully someday they will become more clear. Think about electricity and magnetism. How many generations of humans lived on the earth before some smart people figured out how it all worked, wrote it down, and now all can benefit? There are many things left in our physical universe that we still don't understand, and honestly it gives life more zest. How wonderful it is that there are still great mysteries to be discovered. Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal things, but the glory of kings is to search things out.

I think you have come to a good place to ask your questions. We are all searching for answers, though some on this board, I have come to see, are more convinced than others that they have already gotten it all figured out. I think in God's eyes the process of seeking and searching may be more important than the final answers. Louis Pasteur wrote that "Chance favors the prepared mind". But I think this could be extended to "God favors those diligently searching."

Jer 29:13: You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.

Matt 7: 7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. "

I think the best we can do is to stay curious.

Best wishes,

Kevin T

 

[Diamond7]

There are a variety of ways that this is considered. There is quite a vigorous debate on the age of the earth going on right now on this thread.

Because there is overwelming evidence from science but nothing in the Bible that actually says a day is an age or era. Although the spelling does indicate a little that means a lot and the Bible is filled to the brim with symbolism. Everything in the Bible seems to be symbolic of something else.

 

[Diamond7]

When a woman gives birth to a child, and is having great pain, one might wonder why God is being so cruel. Why make her have such difficulty with labor? But I have been told that the birth of a child makes it worth it for most women. And it helps make that same mother to become fiercely protective of her offspring -- thus helping the propagation of our species.

Oxytocin is the cuddle hormone. It takes the pain away. It also causes the mother to bond with the child. The main study has to do with the prairie voles. If people take oxycontin that clogs the receptors and they often don't bond well even with their children.

What Can Rodents Tell Us About Why Humans Love?

A relative of the mouse may hold the key to understanding why human beings are one of the few mammals that seek lifelong mates

www.smithsonianmag.com

 

[KevinT]

Oxytocin and early parent-infant interactions: A systematic review

Social relationships throughout lifespan are critical for health and wellbeing. Oxytocin, often called the ‘hormone of attachment’ has been suggested as playing an important role in early-life nurturing and resulting social bonding. The ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0266613821001248

 

[Diamond7]

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0266613821001248

Certainly! Oxytocin is a fascinating hormone and neuropeptide with various roles in the human body. Let’s explore its functions:

1. Natural Production: Oxytocin is produced in the hypothalamus and released by the posterior pituitary gland. It has been present in animals since early stages of evolution and plays essential roles in behavior, including social bonding, reproduction, childbirth, and the postpartum period1.
2. Childbirth and Bonding:
   • Childbirth: Oxytocin stimulates uterine contractions, aiding in the process of childbirth. It helps speed up labor by promoting coordinated contractions of the uterine muscles.
   • Maternal Bonding: Oxytocin also plays a role in maternal bonding. It fosters emotional attachment between a mother and her newborn, contributing to the strong bond that develops during breastfeeding and caregiving12.
3. Positive Feelings:
   • Often referred to as the “love hormone” or “love drug,” oxytocin promotes positive feelings. It’s similar to endorphins and serotonin in this regard.
   • Beyond childbirth, oxytocin is involved in social interactions, trust, and emotional connections. It enhances feelings of closeness and empathy3.
4. Synthetic Oxytocin:
   • Pharmaceutical Form: Oxytocin is available in pharmaceutical form.
   • Medical Uses: Synthetic oxytocin is commonly used during childbirth to induce or augment labor. It can also help manage postpartum bleeding.
   • Breastfeeding: Oxytocin facilitates milk ejection during breastfeeding, allowing the infant to feed efficiently14.

In summary, oxytocin is a remarkable hormone that influences both physiological processes (like childbirth) and emotional bonds. Its positive effects on social connections make it a fascinating area of study! 1234

 

[Diamond7]

how could the serpent talk,

All animals can talk. Only problem is the only thing they can say is feed me. I have noticed that animals need to learn how to talk to us just as much as we need to learn how to talk to them. I had a outdoor cat that had a liter of kittens. I thought she would be mad or upset if I gave her kittens away. Actually it was just the opposite. She wanted me to get rid of them for her so she did not have to take care of them.

 

[KevinT]

Certainly! Oxytocin is a fascinating hormone and neuropeptide with various roles in the human body. Let’s explore its functions:

1. ...

Diamond7, are you sure you are not ChatGPT Diamond7?

 

[Diamond7]

Diamond7, are you sure you are not ChatGPT Diamond7?

I use them to write for me so people can understand what I am saying. Also they filter out stuff that people could object to.

 

[tdidymas]

All animals can talk. Only problem is the only thing they can say is feed me. I have noticed that animals need to learn how to talk to us just as much as we need to learn how to talk to them. I had a outdoor cat that had a liter of kittens. I thought she would be mad or upset if I gave her kittens away. Actually it was just the opposite. She wanted me to get rid of them for her so she did not have to take care of them.

What does this have to do with the price of tea in China? I wondered if your response deserved a reply, since you're imposing something onto the scripture text that is completely unrelated to it.