Virginia school board votes to restore Confederate names to two schools

[xser88]

Don't put words in my mouth!

Because you don't understand the need for slaves in the Southern economy. They went to war to maintain their way of life and unfortunately, it included slavery which has been going on for HUNDREDS of years. I can't fault my ancestor's ignorance because they lived like that for generations and knew no better. Today we know how wrong it was. Do you think those white and black plantation owners wanted to pick cotton?

They were just as racist because they treated blacks like dirt till civil rights. To me, not being able to eat in the same place, drink out of the same water fountain, or use the same bathroom is appalling. The people in the 20th century should have known better because we had a Civil War because of it and yet 100 years later......

" I can't fault my ancestor's ignorance because they lived like that for generations and knew no better"

Kidnapping to sell or buy people has been a sin punishable by death years before we committed genocide on Natives and enslaved Africans.
Exodus 21:16 “Whoever kidnaps a person and sells them, and anyone found in possession of them, shall be put to death.
There are forms of consensual volunteer slavery in the bible, kidnapping people to enslave them isn't one of them, it's something evil.
God wrote back in the 5th century BCE; kidnapping is evil and should be punished by death. Kidnapping was immoral and evil before Jesus' time. This is the evil we here in the U.S. practiced for generations. On paper we had the 13th Amendment to abolish slavery, but we still openly beat, lynched and murdered black till the late 1960s. It wasn't that long ago. That wasn't ignorance, it was evil long before we came to America. It's the opposite of God's number one and two command to love God and your neighbors as yourself. White racism is at the base of this long ingrained evil and we're clearly still suffering the ramifications of these ancestor's evil Ideology.

 

[Hans Blaster]

T

So I know you and the others are smart enough to know the Confederacy stuff is not about treason. What I don't know is why you're being disingenuous about it.

The confederacy was pure treason.

 

[Arcangl86]

And yet Obama was squeaky clean enough to serve two full terms without anyone in his administration getting indicted.

David Petraeus would beg to differ.

 

[Pommer]

Did this post #220 have a point?

 

[IceJad]

I never said that I forgave them (or didn't). All I said is that we should not be naming things after them or memorializing them with statues.

And we keep quite a few relics around from the Civil War. For example, most of the major battlefields are historic parks with memorials to soldiers on both sides of the conflict (largely placed by veterans and their families). That's an appropriate place for such things.

The statues that people object to, the schools that were named after Confederate generals, that was mostly done in the early to mid 20th century (1920s-1960s) as a reflection of the racism existing in society at the time. There's no cultural or historical relevance to it - at least nothing worth celebrating.

You guys forfeited the right to complain or be morally righteous about past war individuals when you still have statues of Lenin in America spread across the lands. Compared to Jackson or Lee, Lenin's list of crimes make your confederates look like a schoolyard bully. So I'm going to use your exact wordings for the Lenin statues you guys have there. There's no cultural or historical relevance to it - at least nothing worth celebrating.

 

[Desk trauma]

You guys forfeited the right to complain or be morally righteous about past war individuals when you still have statues of Lenin in America spread across the lands.

By spread you mean one privately owned statue in Seattle?

 

[IceJad]

By spread you mean one privately owned statue in Seattle?

List of statues of Vladimir Lenin - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Maybe there is more I don't know. And it didn't stop some people in America to want more war criminals and tyrants to be placed up.

List of statues of Joseph Stalin - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Neither did it stop Che Guevara from being idolized by certain political faction in America. In fact you can easily find Che Guevara merchandise sold openly in America.

 

[Desk trauma]

List of statues of Vladimir Lenin - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Maybe there is more I don't know.

Bit of a stretch to claim they are “spread across the land”.

Neither did it stop Che Guevara from being idolized by certain political faction in America. In fact you can easily find Che Guevara merchandise sold openly in America.

Spend and give your life fighting for Marxism then get made into a capitalist merchandise.

 

[Hans Blaster]

List of statues of Vladimir Lenin - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Maybe there is more I don't know. And it didn't stop some people in America to want more war criminals and tyrants to be placed up.

My favorite the 6 (yes six) such statues was at:

Red Square (restaurant) - Wikipedia

in Vegas a city where there is also a replica of the Eifel tower and an Egyptian pyramid. (Or maybe it was the one described as "Hidden in a scrapyard to avoid vandalism.")

Do you honestly read such a list (in the link *you* provided) and think that America was a place where Lenin was widely honored? (I'm beginning to think this is disingenuous.)

List of statues of Joseph Stalin - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Neither did it stop Che Guevara from being idolized by certain political faction in America. In fact you can easily find Che Guevara merchandise sold openly in America.

How could one go to college and not have a Che T-shirt or poster to go with your Bob Marley poster? :eyeroll:

 

[IceJad]

Bit of a stretch to claim they are “spread across the land”.

Spend and give your life fighting for Marxism then get made into a capitalist merchandise.

The end is still the same - moral hypocrisy.

Confederates who are Americans equal bad and underserving of any remembrance but leaders of dangerous ideology who are not Americans equal to remembrance and admiration.

American Civil War (localized damage) - 1861 less recent. Some Americans: Let's not forget what these old timers did.

Communist Revolution (worldwide damage) - 1917 more recent. Also some Americans: Let's honor the founders, "intellectuals" and "fighters".

And this is not about private vs public for private expression of confederate symbols have long been under "righteous" scrutiny.

Explain all you can but as an outsider who like to read up on history, you're not convincing me there is a moral difference.

 

[Desk trauma]

And this is not about private vs public for private expression of confederate symbols…

Yes, it is.

 

[Hans Blaster]

The end is still the same - moral hypocrisy.

I think I see where you are confused. You seem to think Americans care about "the world". (We don't.)

Confederates who are Americans equal bad and underserving of any remembrance but leaders of dangerous ideology who are not Americans equal to remembrance and admiration.

American Civil War (localized damage) - 1861 less recent. Some Americans: Let's not forget what these old timers did.

The destruction of property (except for the pseudo-property of slaveholders), was a minor part of the American Civil War. (And my men had a good time doing it -- Genl. Sherman) The impact of that kind came far more from the the death toll which was almost all soldiers.

Communist Revolution (worldwide damage) - 1917 more recent. Also some Americans: Let's honor the founders, "intellectuals" and "fighters".

Almost zero Americans were killed by international Communism. Way way way less than the Civil War. And less than the killings of Black Americans by racial mobs in acts of terror.

And this is not about private vs public for private expression of confederate symbols have long been under "righteous" scrutiny.

We are free to think ill of private individuals keeping confederate statues, just as we are those keeping private commie or nazi statues. (I see you Harlan Crow.) The removal debate/movement was about public honors in non-historical places for people who do not deserve honors.

Explain all you can but as an outsider who like to read up on history, you're not convincing me there is a moral difference.

I'm not sure why I would care about your "moral evaluation".

 

[IceJad]

Yes, it is.

Dear Fremont: We need to talk about Lenin and your statue of the genocidal tyrant | David Volodzko

The effigy of the ruthless leader of the Russian Revolution in the quirky neighborhood is an ugly reminder that Seattle's concern for the oppressed has limits.

www.seattletimes.com

I beg to differ. Don't think I'm unware of such attempts.

In 2017, activists tore down the Daughters of the Confederacy Veterans Monument in the privately-owned Lake View Cemetery in Seattle’s Capitol Hill neighborhood. The mayor at the time had urged the removal of that monument as well as Lenin’s statue, also on private property. The activists left a note saying they did it for everyone “who has been stolen, murdered, enslaved, raped, tortured, brutalized, terrorized, displaced [ …] by white supremacy.”

 

[Desk trauma]

Dear Fremont: We need to talk about Lenin and your statue of the genocidal tyrant | David Volodzko

The effigy of the ruthless leader of the Russian Revolution in the quirky neighborhood is an ugly reminder that Seattle's concern for the oppressed has limits.

www.seattletimes.com

I beg to differ. Don't think I'm unware of such attempts.

The thread is about naming public schools in honor of confederate traitors. Hence it is about the public vs private admiration for them.

 

[IceJad]

I think I see where you are confused. You seem to think Americans care about "the world". (We don't.)

The destruction of property (except for the pseudo-property of slaveholders), was a minor part of the American Civil War. (And my men had a good time doing it -- Genl. Sherman) The impact of that kind came far more from the the death toll which was almost all soldiers.

Almost zero Americans were killed by international Communism. Way way way less than the Civil War. And less than the killings of Black Americans by racial mobs in acts of terror.

We are free to think ill of private individuals keeping confederate statues, just as we are those keeping private commie or nazi statues. (I see you Harlan Crow.) The removal debate/movement was about public honors in non-historical places for people who do not deserve honors.

I'm not sure why I would care about your "moral evaluation".

"American Exceptionalism". Only your moral evaluation is right. If Americans can only keep that within their own borders. But history has proven otherwise. You guys can't stop yourselves from morally evaluating others. You guys do talk a lot in the UN. And only recently you called 4 other nations xenophobic two of them are apparently "allies".

The fact is you don't have to care about my evaluation of the US. Doesn't mean I'm wrong to draw the comparison. Neither you not caring makes others not see Americans (some not all) as hypocrites. The world doesn't revolve around America nor for any other nations.

 

[Hans Blaster]

"American Exceptionalism".

American Indifference.

Only your moral evaluation is right. If Americans can only keep that within their own borders. But history has proven otherwise.

You're making me sorry we didn't invade your country too.

You guys can't stop yourselves from morally evaluating others. You guys do talk a lot in the UN. And only recently you called 4 other nations xenophobic two of them are apparently "allies".

I have no idea what you are talking about, but whatever it is it is hardly relevant as (so far) there isn't a problem with confederate statues outside the US.

The fact is you don't have to care about my evaluation of the US. Doesn't mean I'm wrong to draw the comparison. Neither you not caring makes others not see Americans (some not all) as hypocrites. The world doesn't revolve around America nor for any other nations.

Technically it revolves around its axis, but no I don't care about you comparison nor is it at all relevant for what seems like an infinite array of reasons despite you efforts to cloud the issue at hand. Are you efforts in support of the neo-Confederates?

 

[FireDragon76]

Don't call me a racist Please! Because I don't believe the way you do. That happens a lot these days.

I was making a rhetorical point. People can have strong feelings about the statues.

Personally, I don't have strong feelings about Confederate statues, but I also happen to be white. I can understand why somebody that's black might not be fond of them, and I think moving them to a less conspicuous place might be the considerate thing to do.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

You guys forfeited the right to complain or be morally righteous about past war individuals when you still have statues of Lenin in America spread across the lands.

Perhaps you can explain why I should care about your opinions on this matter?

 

[BCP1928]

List of statues of Vladimir Lenin - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Maybe there is more I don't know. And it didn't stop some people in America to want more war criminals and tyrants to be placed up.

List of statues of Joseph Stalin - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Neither did it stop Che Guevara from being idolized by certain political faction in America. In fact you can easily find Che Guevara merchandise sold openly in America.

How many monuments to Che Guevara have been erected on publicly-owned land in the US? How many public schools are named after him? On the other hand, how many monuments to Chin Peng are there on public land in your country? How many schools are named after him?

 

[Desk trauma]

How could one go to college and not have a Che T-shirt or poster to go with your Bob Marley poster? :eyeroll:

By reading about Ches conduct during and after the Cuban revolution written by other leftist revolutionaries and noticing he was a authoritarian nutcase among authoritarian nutcases…