Universal flood evidence

[Filippus]

We can say that Jesus asking his disciples to eat his body and drink his blood was not all that literal and do that without outright denying the essential points of the Christian Faith.

We can even say it is far more essential.

Just trying to understand how you interpret this, do you suggest that the ark was symbolic?

Shalom

 

[Filippus]

The author makes the common mistake (among many) of assuming that the ark was a "ship", requiring design skills unknown at the time. It was a large, watertight building, just as the story reveals.

The author did get this part right.

"Despite ingenious efforts to lend a degree of plausibility to the tale, nothing can be salvaged without the direct and constant intervention of the deity."

It's the 2nd time you mentioned this, what's the difference between a water tight building and a ship, and why is this so important?

Shalom

 

[SkyWriting]

Just trying to understand how you interpret this, do you suggest that the ark was symbolic?

Shalom

Well, it was symbolic for Noah's Ark, and for the nation of Israel, and for Christianity, and likely more.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Could you possibly explain in more detail what would happen if the plates did rapidly move apart?

"Earth’s land masses move toward and away from each other at an average rate of about 0.6 inch a year. That’s about the rate that human toenails grow! Some regions, such as coastal California, move quite fast in geological terms — almost two inches a year — relative to the more stable interior of the continental United States. At the “seams” where tectonic plates come in contact, the crustal rocks may grind violently against each other, causing earthquakes and volcano eruptions. The relatively fast movement of the tectonic plates under California explains the frequent earthquakes that occur there."
What is Tectonic Shift?.
Other links:
http://www.csun.edu/~vcgeo005/Nr56Miller.pdf
http://www.csun.edu/~vcgeo005/collins.pdf
http://www.csun.edu/~vcgeo005/henke.pdf
http://www.csun.edu/~vcgeo005/Collins&Collins.pdf
http://www.csun.edu/~vcgeo005/Nr40tillites.pdf
Most useful: Racing Plate Tectonics Nonsense
Creationists fail again: taken for granite
Creationists fail again: taken for granite
Plate tectonics and people [This Dynamic Earth, USGS]
OPPOSITION TO CREATIONISM

 

[Daniel Marsh]

And what is your response to all those who claim that the dating is unreliable?

There are various dating methods. No one in real science depends on only one method.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I have no credentials. And ok cool I don't know what's up with the tag but I'm satisfied.

Anyways could you tell me what would be the results of tectonic plates rapidly moving and creating a universal flood? Whether it actually happened or not that's not what I'm looking for I'm looking for what the results would be if hypothetically it did happen.

Since show moving plates by YEC claims cause volcanos, common sense tells me rapid moving plates will cause too much heat, destroying all life, even that on the ark. How much volcanic land is there today?

 

[Daniel Marsh]

See my post #9

YEC please use Non-YEC sources, sites to back up your claims.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I see your earlier post and I can agree that those conditions would definitely threaten life. That is why some would say all life died except what was on the ark. Im not sure that I completely buy that. However, there are some who believe that earth was covered in water early on.

Was The Earth Ever Totally Underwater? » Science ABC

If the ark was higher than the highest mountain animals would not have survived in the Ark.
Climbing With Supplemental Oxygen: By The Numbers
Himalayan Mountaineering – Summit Oxygen
https://mountainhomies.com/why-mountaineers-carry-oxygen-full-explanation/

"Aside from this, great variety is introduced by differences in latitude, elevation, and exposure to the sun. Thus, there exists no single, clearly defined, mountain climate. The most common climatic results of high elevation are those of decreased pressure, reduced oxygen availability, decreased temperature, and increased insolation; the last two combine to produce a typical "hot sun and cold shade" condition. Precipitation is heavier on the windward side of a mountain barrier than on the leeward (orographic precipitation), and on the windward side it increases upward to the zone of maximum precipitation, then decreases again."
https://glossary.ametsoc.org/wiki/Mountain_climate

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Again some would argue about the dating methods. Those are irrelevant for what I'm looking for. Could the water cover the earth completely at some point in the past (I don't care at what point)? How did that water get there?

The Impossible Voyage of Noah's Ark | National Center for Science Education
https://www.rte.ie/news/special-reports/2008/0515/103336-noahsark/

"
One estimate of the volume of water in the atmosphere at any one time is about 3,100 cubic miles (mi3) or 12,900 cubic kilometers (km3). That may sound like a lot, but it is only about 0.001 percent of the total Earth's water volume of about 332,500,000 mi3 (1,385,000,000 km3)

If all of the water in the atmosphere rained down at once, it would only cover the ground to a depth of 2.5 centimeters, about 1 inch." Forget about Noah's Ark; There Was No Worldwide Flood | Bible Interp

http://www.csun.edu/~vcgeo005/Nr38Reasons.pdf

"At this point in the story, Noah must have been doing some pretty intensely magical things. The last miracle he needed to perform was supplying food and clean water for all of these four million animals (and millions of plants) to last an entire year on a giant boat. So not only would Noah and his sons need to find all of these animals, as mentioned in the previous paragraph, but they would also need to gather food to sustain them all for an entire year (includinghttps://sites.psu.edu/averyjohnlevan/2018/11/02/noahs-ark-didnt-happen/
many of the same animals to feed the predators)." Could Noah’s Ark Float? In Theory, Yes | Science| Smithsonian Magazine

Using YEC model how many inches per Second of rain fell? Since no one would be able to go on deck during the 40 days and 40 nights that would cause a back log of 480 tons of animal waste inside the ark. How much methpane would be created? The YEC model says the ark had 12 tons of animal waste a day.
AE-105.

Do the math.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

If the earth were an absolutely perfect sphere, no mountains or valleys whatsoever, then, yes, the existing water would completely cover the surface. As to where the water came from in the first place, that is a very debatable scientific question.

We already know that the water would be a few inches deep. There is simply not enough water on our planet.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I do believe it would be a big ask for me to believe a universal flood happened after there were mountains. I agree there would have to be no mountains. Now the question is could the tectonic plates move rapidly to where the result would be a universal flood complete with tsunamis, earthquakes, and vulcanism releasing yet more water and give rise to the mountains and other geographic features?

Any Geology book has answered those questions and many more.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Sorry, I must have been out to lunch when you posted this question. Someone posted on this thread today and thus revived it.

All flood evidence is local regardless of how wide or big the flood is. Evidence depends on topography, vegetation type, soil type, elevation gradient, velocity of inflow and outflow, etc. Also weathering and settling of flood evidence varies over time and distance, making it difficult or impossible to determine a 'global' flood event, leaving similar flood myth and legend among many cultures actually more evidentiary than geology.

Looking at the rain cycle, when water evaporates at one part of the earth, it would be raining or snowing somewhere else. Thus, making no change in how much water covered the earth.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

The flood of the Bible cannot be taken as universal (global) for several simple reasons:

1. The people who wrote the story didn't know what a planet was, how could they describe a planet-wide event?

2. For the people who wrote the story, the "world" was literally the size of Texas.

3. You can never project modern knowledge or meanings into the Bible. Just because we think it was global doesn't mean they did.

Having said that, the flood of Genesis has been confirmed by at least a half dozen ancient sources. There's no question that it did happen.

Also add that the word earth simply meant dirt.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

If you study the biblical story carefully you'll quickly see that the biblical flood and the flood that is debunked by science and scholars isn't the same flood. For example, the bible nowhere suggests a huge vapor 'canopy' that came crashing to earth during the flood. The narrative simply says it rained for forty days and nights.

Also the certainty that man had spread beyond Mesopotamia requires a wider flood. The year long duration of the flood must also be considered. This would serve to kill any that survived the initial flooding as they would eventually perish from starvation or exposure.

Also of note is that scholars and other critics continue to call the ark a "ship" (then present arguments against its 'seaworthiness'). It was actually a large watertight warehouse.

Regarding geological evidence, the slow moving flood would leave little, and that would have been degraded over the millenia.

"How could an atmosphere almost 100% water vapor not condense? The temperature would have to be raised to the point where the partial pressure of water equals 900 atmospheres, i.e. the boiling point at that pressure. So we find Noah et al. living in a 13,000psi boiler. Is this credible?" The Vapor Canopy Hypothesis Holds No Water

"Even a canopy of the equivalent of only 40 feet of liquid water would double the earth's atmospheric pressure, which would kill many animals, including humans. This pressure would also increase the temperature on the earth to a scorching 220�F. Most animals and plants do not survive long at this temperature."
The Water Vapor Canopy Theory: Why the Bible (And Science) Says It is False

 

[Daniel Marsh]

There are several things I have to take issue with here, but I'll leave this for now as I don't think there's any need to be contentious about whether the flood is local or global. Suffice to say, though, I believe it would be a mistake to understand the flood in naturalistic terms, because it's recorded for us as a miracle. I'll leave it at that.

What I must insist on, however, is that the people who perished in the flood is all people, and not all people in a certain region. You are right in that the Holy Scriptures uses "all" in two senses: one referring to all locally, and the other, all globally (and in a third sense as hyperbole). In this instance, the context demands that "all" is global. We can know this from the immediate context as well as the broader context. For one, God limits man's life to 120 years, and this is universal. Likewise, the wickedness on earth is also universal. The rainbow is universal. So, the Lord is not dealing with a local people or tribe, but all people. It's also the plain reading when considering the whole narrative. There's nothing in the immediate text itself to indicate that this is dealing with a group of people when the context deals with all people; there's no indication that the text jumps between two meanings. To think otherwise would be to impose a foreign understanding into the text which doesn't belong.

That the text deals with all people can also be understood from the broader context. Compare our Lord using it as an example of His return to judgment of all people, particularly when bearing in mind what Peter writes in his epistles — especially the mention that only eight survived, and that this corresponds to Baptism, which is universal.

There is a place for reason in exegesis, but reason should be governed by God's Word. That is, our understanding of a text should not be shaped by theories. The Bible expresses that all perished in the flood, except for Noah and his family, and so we confess exactly that and nothing more.

Noah's global world based on knowledge back then was very limited. They would not know about the Americas of our time for example.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

The author makes the common mistake (among many) of assuming that the ark was a "ship", requiring design skills unknown at the time. It was a large, watertight building, just as the story reveals.

The author did get this part right.

"Despite ingenious efforts to lend a degree of plausibility to the tale, nothing can be salvaged without the direct and constant intervention of the deity."

12 tons of animal waste a day???? 480 tons in the building? At what point does animal waste become toxic? How much does it take to be toxic?

These are open space, Noah's building would be closed space during the 40 days and 40 nights.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2021/05/10/farm-pollution-deaths/
Study: Animal-based foods connected to 15,900 deaths a year - Iowa Capital Dispatch
Air quality–related health damages of food
Preventing Deaths of Farm Workers in Manure Pits (90-103) | NIOSH | CDC

 

[Daniel Marsh]

"Despite ingenious efforts to lend a degree of plausibility to the tale, nothing can be salvaged without the direct and constant intervention of the deity."

The rest of the quote and context:

"Perhaps surprisingly, the answer is no. Even this sensational find is not enough to validate a literal reading of Genesis. Our continuing skepticism is in the tradition of philosopher David Hume, who wrote that "the knavery and folly of men are such common phenomena that I should rather believe the most extraordinary events to arise from their concurrence than admit of so signal a violation of the laws of nature." As we shall see, the story of the great flood and the voyage of the ark, as expounded by modern creationists, contains so many incredible "violations of the laws of nature" that it cannot possibly be accepted by any thinking person. Despite ingenious efforts to lend a degree of plausibility to the tale, nothing can be salvaged without the direct and constant intervention of the deity.

Building the Ark


The requirements of the story.
To make this point clear, let's start at the beginning of the biblical narrative and follow the story step by step. From the moment the impending storm is announced (Genesis 6:7, 13, 17) and Jehovah sets forth the design and dimensions of the ark (Genesis 6:14-16), problems start appearing.



The ark is to be made out of gopher wood according to a plan that calls for the ark to be three hundred cubits long, fifty cubits wide, and thirty cubits tall (450x75x45 feet, according to most creationists. See Segraves, p. 11). It is to contain three floors, a large door in the side, and a one cubit square window at the top. The floors are to be divided into rooms, and all the walls, inside and out, are to be pitched with pitch. Since the purpose of the ark is to hold animals and plants, particularly two of "every living thing of all flesh . . . to keep them alive with thee" (Genesis 6:19), it will have to be constructed accordingly.



- page 2 -


Most creationists simply breeze through this description of the size and requirements of the ark without a second glance ("It is hard to believe that intelligent people see a problem here" — LaHaye and Morris, The Ark on Ararat, p. 248), often with a passing comment about the architectural skill of ancient peoples as manifested in the Seven Wonders of the World. But Noah's boatbuilding accomplishments have not been fully appreciated by his fans."
The Impossible Voyage of Noah's Ark | National Center for Science Education

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Read to here start at post 119

 

[Filippus]

The rest of the quote and context:

"Perhaps surprisingly, the answer is no. Even this sensational find is not enough to validate a literal reading of Genesis. Our continuing skepticism is in the tradition of philosopher David Hume, who wrote that "the knavery and folly of men are such common phenomena that I should rather believe the most extraordinary events to arise from their concurrence than admit of so signal a violation of the laws of nature." As we shall see, the story of the great flood and the voyage of the ark, as expounded by modern creationists, contains so many incredible "violations of the laws of nature" that it cannot possibly be accepted by any thinking person. Despite ingenious efforts to lend a degree of plausibility to the tale, nothing can be salvaged without the direct and constant intervention of the deity.

Building the Ark


The requirements of the story.
To make this point clear, let's start at the beginning of the biblical narrative and follow the story step by step. From the moment the impending storm is announced (Genesis 6:7, 13, 17) and Jehovah sets forth the design and dimensions of the ark (Genesis 6:14-16), problems start appearing.



The ark is to be made out of gopher wood according to a plan that calls for the ark to be three hundred cubits long, fifty cubits wide, and thirty cubits tall (450x75x45 feet, according to most creationists. See Segraves, p. 11). It is to contain three floors, a large door in the side, and a one cubit square window at the top. The floors are to be divided into rooms, and all the walls, inside and out, are to be pitched with pitch. Since the purpose of the ark is to hold animals and plants, particularly two of "every living thing of all flesh . . . to keep them alive with thee" (Genesis 6:19), it will have to be constructed accordingly.



- page 2 -


Most creationists simply breeze through this description of the size and requirements of the ark without a second glance ("It is hard to believe that intelligent people see a problem here" — LaHaye and Morris, The Ark on Ararat, p. 248), often with a passing comment about the architectural skill of ancient peoples as manifested in the Seven Wonders of the World. But Noah's boatbuilding accomplishments have not been fully appreciated by his fans."
The Impossible Voyage of Noah's Ark | National Center for Science Education

So what do you propose?

Shalom

 

[Filippus]

Read to here start at post 119

I only got to 118.