Unity or Uniformity?

jimmyjimmy

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You don't think that the NT refers to the body of Christ? While eclessia often refers to individual congregations, there are places where it seems to refer to all of Christ's people, e.g. Mat 16:18, Act 9:31. I'm not a great fan of calling it invisible, but the term is a technical one meaning that its exact membership isn't known.

A word study reveals that church almost always means a tangible local gathering. The other times it's used have other explanations other than things invisible.
 
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Albion

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Would your life change if you woke up tomorrow, read your Bible, and realized, like me, that there is no such thing as an "invisible church"?

Yes or no.
Sure--just as it would if tomorrow I picked up my Bible and thought that it was saying there is no heaven, no soul, and/or no God. What's the point of the question?
 
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Albion

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A word study reveals that church almost always means a tangible local gathering. The other times it's used have other explanations other than things invisible.
Your word study and the claim that you can't find 'it' in the Bible have led you down a blind alley. The Bible also doesn't use the words Trinity, Millennium, Rapture, Sacrament, and many, many other terms that we use in order to refer quickly to various concepts that certainly ARE in the Bible. Do you therefore conclude that they don't exist, aren't Scriptural, or have no importance to a Christian?
 
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jimmyjimmy

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That's not true. Al of those things have an impact on your life. The so called invisible church does not. That's my point. You pray because there is a God. You give up earthly riches because there is a Heaven, but you don't attend monthly meeting of the "invisible church". You didn't get a call from an elder of the "invisible church" when you had your gallbladder out. . .
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Your word study and the claim that you can't find 'it' in the Bible have led you down a blind alley. The Bible also doesn't use the words Trinity, Millennium, Rapture, Sacrament, and many, many other terms that we use in order to refer quickly to various concepts that certainly ARE in the Bible. Do you therefore conclude that they don't exist, aren't Scriptural, or have no importance to a Christian?

Again, not true. The word church does exist in the Bible. Invisible, not so much.
 
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hedrick

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A word study reveals that church almost always means a tangible local gathering. The other times it's used have other explanations other than things invisible.
I'm looking at the results of a search on "church." The majority of uses seem to be a specific local church. But there are times when it means everybody. I thought we all used a creed that talks about the holy catholic Church. This is just a weird argument. The only other time I've heard it has been with Catholics, where it's "no the Church isn't invisible. It's identical to Catholic Church." (upper-case C, meaning all churches in communion with Rome.)
 
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jimmyjimmy

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I'm looking at the results of a search on "church." The majority of uses seem to be a specific local church. But there are times when it means everybody. I thought we all used a creed that talks about the holy catholic Church. This is just a weird argument. The only other time I've heard it has been with Catholics, where it's "no the Church isn't invisible. It's identical to Catholic Church." (upper-case C, meaning all churches in communion with Rome.)

We all understand that there are Christians we can't see and don't interact with, yet we have a common Lord and Savior.; however that alone does not constitute a church.

If I seem crazy, know that I'm pressing this issue not so much for what you or Ablion stand for, but because of those who claim no leader but Christ, and no church but the "invisible church". The churchless-christians made me start to consider the what the church is and isn't, and although there are Christians who are not visible to me, the only church I know is with Christians who are visible to me.
 
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Albion

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That's not true.
What's not true?

Al of those things have an impact on your life.
So does being a part of Christ's church.

The so called invisible church does not. That's my point. You pray because there is a God. You give up earthly riches because there is a Heaven, but you don't attend monthly meeting of the "invisible church".
No, and I don't attend the monthly meeting of humankind, my political conservatism, my love for music, or my German ancestry. As a matter of fact, most of the value systems you or I adhere to are not capsulized into some organization with a Constitution and By Laws that holds membership meetings.
 
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Hoghead1

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Your word study and the claim that you can't find 'it' in the Bible have led you down a blind alley. The Bible also doesn't use the words Trinity, Millennium, Rapture, Sacrament, and many, many other terms that we use in order to refer quickly to various concepts that certainly ARE in the Bible. Do you therefore conclude that they don't exist, aren't Scriptural, or have no importance to a Christian?
Yes, but many o f these terms involve a further interpretation of Scripture and the considerable use of extra-biblical material. For example, Scripture implies a Trinity, true. However, it does not work it out in any real detail. Hence, the Trinitarian formulations use loads of extra-biblical materials and concepts, such as "substance," which comes from Hellenic metaphysics.
 
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Albion

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Yes, but many o f these terms involve a further interpretation of Scripture and the considerable use of extra-biblical material. For example, Scripture implies a Trinity, true. However, it does not work it out in any real detail. Hence, the Trinitarian formulations use loads of extra-biblical materials and concepts, such as "substance," which comes from Hellenic metaphysics.
I don't see how that changes anything. The point was that saying "it's not in the Bible" is true only if the word itself is not there. That is what Brian was arguing.

But as you agreed, the real issue is whether the idea is there or not. Yes, it's man's doing to call the church of Christ "the invisible church" but if we call it "blue bunnies" instead, it's still Biblical! Brian's been saying it has no meaning at all and, indeed, does not even exist, which is of course untrue.
 
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Albion

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I'm looking at the results of a search on "church." The majority of uses seem to be a specific local church. But there are times when it means everybody. I thought we all used a creed that talks about the holy catholic Church.
And there you go, Brian. Case closed.

This is just a weird argument.
Exactly.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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What's not true?


So does being a part of Christ's church.


No, and I don't attend the monthly meeting of humankind, my political conservatism, my love for music, or my German ancestry. As a matter of fact, most of the value systems you or I adhere to are not capsulized into some organization with a Constitution and By Laws that holds membership meetings.

I don't think that you are being intellectually honest, and I'm not certain why.

Belonging to the church that you has an
And there you go, Brian. Case closed.


Exactly.

Why is the case closed? The creed?

It's only weird because I haven't been able to explain what I mean, or you haven't comprehended it.
 
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Albion

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Why is the case closed? The creed?
Because as Hedrick said -- better than I, apparently -- "church" has several different meanings, and it's virtually undeniable that one of them refers to what some Christians call the "invisible church."

It's also undeniable that Jesus referred to his church and wasn't speaking there of one congregation of the United Methodist Church in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. When we, most Christians, say that we believe in the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, we are speaking of the church overall, i.e. the invisible church which encompasses all true believers wherever and whenever.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Because as Hedrick said -- better than I, apparently -- "church" has several different meanings, and it's virtually undeniable that one of them refers to what some Christians call the "invisible church."

Let's discuss those other meanings, and if they would lead to the idea of an invisible church, then. Wouldn't that be better than claiming a win on a debate in which we haven't even defined terms? You may of course continue or not, but don't give me a "case closed" when we haven't even gotten to the arguments yet.
 
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