MJ Only Unclean Sky Watchers

[be(t)et lamed resh]

מִיכָאֵל

 

[be(t)et lamed resh]

מִיכָאֵל

גַּבְרִיאֵל

 

[be(t)et lamed resh]

You mentioned the connection between Esau and a saiyr: where did you get it from? In the following passage we read that Esau was a hairy man, for most translations render the word in the text as hairy, (which word is almost the same as saiyr), but in this case the text actually says saiyr, a he-goat or shaggy goat.

Genesis 27:11 KJV
11 And Jacob said to Rebekah his mother, Behold, Esau my brother is a hairy [H8163 sa'iyr] man, and I am a smooth man:

That's kind of like saying a goat-man, and of course, Esau and Yakob are twins.



Did you know this passage is quoted by the Master in a parable?

Matthew 22:11-14 ASV
11 But when the king came in to behold the guests, he saw there a man who had not on a wedding-garment:
12 and he saith unto him, Friend, [fellow (traveler)] how camest thou in hither not having a wedding-garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then the king said to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and cast him out into the outer darkness; [Henok 10:4] there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few chosen.

Dudael is typically understood as Cualdron of El or Pit of El, assuming a theophoric El suffix, but that does not necessarily mean that is the correct understanding. The suffix may be the negative meaning of el attached as a suffix to the word Dudael.

The place-name דודאל Dudael:
Theophoric El suffix – דודאל (H1731 דוד + H410 אל) – Cauldron of El
Negative adverb suffix – דודאל (H1730 דוד + H408 אל) – Not Loving (Without Love)

The Desert of Dudael is the place of no love and therefore called outer darkness in Matthew 22:13.
The only thing left out of the Henok 10:4 quote in Matthew 22:13 is the name Azazel.

You mentioned the connection between Esau and a saiyr: where did you get it from? In the following passage we read that Esau was a hairy man, for most translations render the word in the text as hairy, (which word is almost the same as saiyr), but in this case the text actually says saiyr, a he-goat or shaggy goat.

Genesis 27:11 KJV
11 And Jacob said to Rebekah his mother, Behold, Esau my brother is a hairy [H8163 sa'iyr] man, and I am a smooth man:

That's kind of like saying a goat-man, and of course, Esau and Yakob are twins.



Did you know this passage is quoted by the Master in a parable?

Matthew 22:11-14 ASV
11 But when the king came in to behold the guests, he saw there a man who had not on a wedding-garment:
12 and he saith unto him, Friend, [fellow (traveler)] how camest thou in hither not having a wedding-garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then the king said to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and cast him out into the outer darkness; [Henok 10:4] there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few chosen.

Dudael is typically understood as Cualdron of El or Pit of El, assuming a theophoric El suffix, but that does not necessarily mean that is the correct understanding. The suffix may be the negative meaning of el attached as a suffix to the word Dudael.

The place-name דודאל Dudael:
Theophoric El suffix – דודאל (H1731 דוד + H410 אל) – Cauldron of El
Negative adverb suffix – דודאל (H1730 דוד + H408 אל) – Not Loving (Without Love)

The Desert of Dudael is the place of no love and therefore called outer darkness in Matthew 22:13.
The only thing left out of the Henok 10:4 quote in Matthew 22:13 is the name Azazel.

Iyov ch 41 describes leviathans garment with bitter dark water from a shared perspective. Something that should remind the soul of a scabberd capable of surviving the Swords edge. Sharpened and refined by Fire. A dalet nun forgotten only by those without hunger. A scabberd eventually turned to wine skins by those complacent with the 20 unclean birds. What is wine to noach without a dove/yonah? A garment of hope on the horizon of hope first. Then a Word to carry hope further with a promise

 

[be(t)et lamed resh]

You mentioned the connection between Esau and a saiyr: where did you get it from? In the following passage we read that Esau was a hairy man, for most translations render the word in the text as hairy, (which word is almost the same as saiyr), but in this case the text actually says saiyr, a he-goat or shaggy goat.

Genesis 27:11 KJV
11 And Jacob said to Rebekah his mother, Behold, Esau my brother is a hairy [H8163 sa'iyr] man, and I am a smooth man:

That's kind of like saying a goat-man, and of course, Esau and Yakob are twins.



Did you know this passage is quoted by the Master in a parable?

Matthew 22:11-14 ASV
11 But when the king came in to behold the guests, he saw there a man who had not on a wedding-garment:
12 and he saith unto him, Friend, [fellow (traveler)] how camest thou in hither not having a wedding-garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then the king said to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and cast him out into the outer darkness; [Henok 10:4] there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few chosen.

Dudael is typically understood as Cualdron of El or Pit of El, assuming a theophoric El suffix, but that does not necessarily mean that is the correct understanding. The suffix may be the negative meaning of el attached as a suffix to the word Dudael.

The place-name דודאל Dudael:
Theophoric El suffix – דודאל (H1731 דוד + H410 אל) – Cauldron of El
Negative adverb suffix – דודאל (H1730 דוד + H408 אל) – Not Loving (Without Love)

The Desert of Dudael is the place of no love and therefore called outer darkness in Matthew 22:13.
The only thing left out of the Henok 10:4 quote in Matthew 22:13 is the name Azazel.

AEL is typically a late 15th century linguistic format from latin rome.

 

[be(t)et lamed resh]

You mentioned the connection between Esau and a saiyr: where did you get it from? In the following passage we read that Esau was a hairy man, for most translations render the word in the text as hairy, (which word is almost the same as saiyr), but in this case the text actually says saiyr, a he-goat or shaggy goat.

Genesis 27:11 KJV
11 And Jacob said to Rebekah his mother, Behold, Esau my brother is a hairy [H8163 sa'iyr] man, and I am a smooth man:

That's kind of like saying a goat-man, and of course, Esau and Yakob are twins.



Did you know this passage is quoted by the Master in a parable?

Matthew 22:11-14 ASV
11 But when the king came in to behold the guests, he saw there a man who had not on a wedding-garment:
12 and he saith unto him, Friend, [fellow (traveler)] how camest thou in hither not having a wedding-garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then the king said to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and cast him out into the outer darkness; [Henok 10:4] there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few chosen.

Dudael is typically understood as Cualdron of El or Pit of El, assuming a theophoric El suffix, but that does not necessarily mean that is the correct understanding. The suffix may be the negative meaning of el attached as a suffix to the word Dudael.

The place-name דודאל Dudael:
Theophoric El suffix – דודאל (H1731 דוד + H410 אל) – Cauldron of El
Negative adverb suffix – דודאל (H1730 דוד + H408 אל) – Not Loving (Without Love)

The Desert of Dudael is the place of no love and therefore called outer darkness in Matthew 22:13.
The only thing left out of the Henok 10:4 quote in Matthew 22:13 is the name Azazel.

The place-name דודאל Dudael:
Theophoric El suffix – דודאל (H1731 דוד + H410 אל) – Cauldron of El
Negative adverb suffix – דודאל (H1730 דוד + H408 אל) – Not Loving (Without Love)


I'll presume that this is from a strongs variation. If so I'd like to focus on dalet vav dalet via Torah.
Please provide scripture references.

 

[be(t)et lamed resh]

I pray that the readers hear and see that henok is authored by an enemy of mankind.
Dalet vav dalet is a sealed promise to the Kingdom seed. Where as henok claims light is darkness.
A seat where?

 

[be(t)et lamed resh]

Luke 6:28

 

[daq]

Looks like someone has been consuming eagle and swooped in to steal what was not his.

Ah well, as long as he is not ripping me to shreds with his talons I will turn the other cheek and let him have my thread. Sure glad CF doesn't charge to post new threads.

 

[be(t)et lamed resh]

Looks like someone has been consuming eagle and swooped in to steal what was not his.

Ah well, as long as he is not ripping me to shreds with his talons I will turn the other cheek and let him have my thread. Sure glad CF doesn't charge to post new threads.

I Am a northern eagle

 

[be(t)et lamed resh]

Looks like someone has been consuming eagle and swooped in to steal what was not his.

Ah well, as long as he is not ripping me to shreds with his talons I will turn the other cheek and let him have my thread. Sure glad CF doesn't charge to post new threads.

I appreciate your exegesis

 

[daq]

I pray that the readers hear and see that henok is authored by an enemy of mankind.

Who is this addressed to?

 

[daq]

I pray that the readers hear and see that henok is authored by an enemy of mankind.

If you wish to be a fair judge then it would surely upright and appropriate for you to make sure your readers know how many times and places where Henok is either quoted or referenced in the whole of the scripture record. Surely none would fault you for missing a few, for indeed, they are sometimes quite difficult to perceive in the sayings of the Prophets.

 

[be(t)et lamed resh]

If you wish to be a fair judge then it would surely upright and appropriate for you to make sure your readers know how many times and places where Henok is either quoted or referenced in the whole of the scripture record. Surely none would fault you for missing a few, for indeed, they are sometimes quite difficult to perceive in the sayings of the Prophets.

What I Know?

 

[be(t)et lamed resh]

If you wish to be a fair judge then it would surely upright and appropriate for you to make sure your readers know how many times and places where Henok is either quoted or referenced in the whole of the scripture record. Surely none would fault you for missing a few, for indeed, they are sometimes quite difficult to perceive in the sayings of the Prophets.

Be vigilant of sources

 

[daq]

Be vigilant of sources

There are a number of sources in the scripture, and even the Torah, which confirm teachings found in Sefer Henok. For example, rather than the usual and most popular passage found in the Torah, (from Gen 6), perhaps we might look at something else which is not quite as widely known since many translators do not render the name Azazel as a proper noun in Lev 16, though some do.

Leviticus 16:8-10 TS2009
8 “And Aharon shall cast lots for the two goats, one lot for יהוה and the other lot for Azazel.
9 “And Aharon shall bring the goat on which the lot for יהוה fell, and shall prepare it as a sin offering.
10 “But the goat on which the lot for Azazel fell is caused to stand alive before יהוה, to make atonement upon it, to send it into the wilderness to Azazel.

I suppose the first question would be whether or not we should read Azazel as a proper noun in this passage? Should we or should we not? What is the reason most translators give for not doing so? Is it a valid reason according to the scripture or is their reasoning refuted elsewhere in the scripture?

Next, if indeed it is a proper noun herein, then this passage is the only place where we find this name in all of the scripture, and thus, the question would be why that is, and why does the Torah see no need to expound the meaning of this passage? Could it be that Mosheh sees no reason to expound the name or its meaning because it is expounded somewhere else? Where else might that be? We of course have the full story of Azazel expounded in Sefer Henok, even down to the fact that Henok states that all sin is to be ascribed to Azazel for the works taught by him which corrupted the whole earth.

Enoch 10:8 (R.H. Charles)
8 And the whole earth has been corrupted through the works that were taught by Azâzêl: to him ascribe all sin.'

The Book of Enoch: The Book of Enoch: Chapter X

The Book of Enoch, by R.H. Charles, [1917], full text etext at sacred-texts.com

sacred-texts.com

Thus, in Lev 16, the twin goat chosen by lot to be sent away is not itself Azazel, but all the sins of the congregation are placed upon the head of the twin goat chosen by lot to/for Azazel, and then the goat is sent away to/for Azazel with all the sins of the congregation upon its head. Therefore all the sins of the congregation are ascribed to Azazel, just as the above quote from Henok states.

 

[be(t)et lamed resh]

There are a number of sources in the scripture, and even the Torah, which confirm teachings found in Sefer Henok. For example, rather than the usual and most popular passage found in the Torah, (from Gen 6), perhaps we might look at something else which is not quite as widely known since many translators do not render the name Azazel as a proper noun in Lev 16, though some do.

Leviticus 16:8-10 TS2009
8 “And Aharon shall cast lots for the two goats, one lot for יהוה and the other lot for Azazel.
9 “And Aharon shall bring the goat on which the lot for יהוה fell, and shall prepare it as a sin offering.
10 “But the goat on which the lot for Azazel fell is caused to stand alive before יהוה, to make atonement upon it, to send it into the wilderness to Azazel.

I suppose the first question would be whether or not we should read Azazel as a proper noun in this passage? Should we or should we not? What is the reason most translators give for not doing so? Is it a valid reason according to the scripture or is their reasoning refuted elsewhere in the scripture?

Next, if indeed it is a proper noun herein, then this passage is the only place where we find this name in all of the scripture, and thus, the question would be why that is, and why does the Torah see no need to expound the meaning of this passage? Could it be that Mosheh sees no reason to expound the name or its meaning because it is expounded somewhere else? Where else might that be? We of course have the full story of Azazel expounded in Sefer Henok, even down to the fact that Henok states that all sin is to be ascribed to Azazel for the works taught by him which corrupted the whole earth.

Enoch 10:8 (R.H. Charles)
8 And the whole earth has been corrupted through the works that were taught by Azâzêl: to him ascribe all sin.'

The Book of Enoch: The Book of Enoch: Chapter X

The Book of Enoch, by R.H. Charles, [1917], full text etext at sacred-texts.com

sacred-texts.com

Thus, in Lev 16, the twin goat chosen by lot to be sent away is not itself Azazel, but all the sins of the congregation are placed upon the head of the twin goat chosen by lot to/for Azazel, and then the goat is sent away to/for Azazel with all the sins of the congregation upon its head. Therefore all the sins of the congregation are ascribed to Azazel, just as the above quote from Henok states.

Yoma 67b from a first to second century source.
[ The school of Rabbi Yishmael taught: Azazel is so called because it atones for the actions of Uzza and Azael. These are the names of “sons of God” who sinned with “daughters of men” (Genesis 6:2) and thereby caused the world to sin during the generation of the Flood.]

If henok was following any customary tradition the accuracy would of been closer.
Majority of the sages in the talmud cite azazel as a word describing a place. Sharp rocky etc.. No mention of the place dudael that I can find yet.

 

[daq]

Yoma 67b from a first to second century source.
[ The school of Rabbi Yishmael taught: Azazel is so called because it atones for the actions of Uzza and Azael. These are the names of “sons of God” who sinned with “daughters of men” (Genesis 6:2) and thereby caused the world to sin during the generation of the Flood.]

If henok was following any customary tradition the accuracy would of been closer.
Majority of the sages in the talmud cite azazel as a word describing a place. Sharp rocky etc.. No mention of the place dudael that I can find yet.

Your statement "Be viligant of sources" does not include taking motive for statements in writings into account? What if the author you are reading has already made it known that he, she, or they no longer accept the writing which he, she, they are trying to counter? Is the motive for the counter argument not relevant? Why should I dismiss a possible concept in the Torah because of the Talmud if indeed I wish to "be vigilant of sources"?

 

[be(t)et lamed resh]

Your statement "Be viligant of sources" does not include taking motive for statements in writings into account? What if the author you are reading has already made it known that he, she, or they no longer accept the writing which he, she, they are trying to counter? Is the motive for the counter argument not relevant? Why should I dismiss a possible concept in the Torah because of the Talmud if indeed I wish to "be vigilant of sources"?

Most commentary from yomab involving the 2 he goats concern details such as who takes the goat allotted for azazel wilderness. Number of encampments en route. Mitzvot. Also details about the rocky sharp cliff area and how the goat is meant to die hidden away enough so that no person happens on it and eats or uses it for another purpose.

 

[be(t)et lamed resh]

Your statement "Be viligant of sources" does not include taking motive for statements in writings into account? What if the author you are reading has already made it known that he, she, or they no longer accept the writing which he, she, they are trying to counter? Is the motive for the counter argument not relevant? Why should I dismiss a possible concept in the Torah because of the Talmud if indeed I wish to "be vigilant of sources"?

I find it plausible that henok may of been from an outlier school of thought. But the account of azazel bound hand and foot then buried in dudael doesnt stand up to scrutiny when paralled with Torah. Its possibly a translation issue later on by an anonymous author. Or maybe someone not versed in hebrew. Cant be certain due to so little to find from original source text such as Qumran fragments.
I still find the numerical count of unclean birds to be of value. Just remaining critical till sufficient evidence is found to verify dudael.

 

[daq]

Most commentary from yomab involving the 2 he goats concern details such as who takes the goat allotted for azazel wilderness. Number of encampments en route. Mitzvot. Also details about the rocky sharp cliff area and how the goat is meant to die hidden away enough so that no person happens on it and eats or uses it for another purpose.

AZAZEL - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

jewishencyclopedia.com

Uzza and Aza'el | Encyclopedia.com

UZZA AND AZA'ELUZZA AND AZA'EL , heroes of a medieval tale based on the biblical story of the Nephilim (cf. Gen. 6:4), which was developed in the second century b.c.e. in the Book of *Enoch. Source for information on Uzza and Aza'el: Encyclopaedia Judaica dictionary.

www.encyclopedia.com

And yet nowhere does the Torah command that the goat to/for Azazel be destroyed. Why would that be? It represents all the sins of the people which were placed upon its (mortally wounded) head. And Mosheh as says, (if you do not do what is right), be sure your sin will find you out, and as the Master says, sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you, for when the unclean spirit goes forth from the man, he goes and associates unto himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, etc., etc.