Trying to understand Calvinism

Mikeseven

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Do you guys believe in Free Will? Do you believe that we have free will but it is just that we all are so corrupt that we don't choose right? Because of this then it is up to God to have mercy on those he has mercy?

Also do you believe God causes/moves people to sin? What would you make of the below verse? i am just asking. Not too sure whose right on this.

james 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death

What would you make of this verse as well that states they are actively resisting the Holy Spirit:

Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you.
 

Mark Quayle

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Do you guys believe in Free Will? Do you believe that we have free will but it is just that we all are so corrupt that we don't choose right? Because of this then it is up to God to have mercy on those he has mercy?
First, define "Free Will" as you mean it here, and please, as fully as possible. Include implications. Don't expect that because you use a certain word that it means to others only what it means to you.
Also do you believe God causes/moves people to sin? What would you make of the below verse? i am just asking. Not too sure whose right on this.

james 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death
Yes, I do. It is quite a different thing from "God causing" to infer from God intending that all things work out as they do, means that he himself does the tempting. He himself tempts no one... But, btw, the passage is pointing out that each person is tempted by his own desire. THAT is the point of it.
What would you make of this verse as well that states they are actively resisting the Holy Spirit:

Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you.
You seem to assume here that Calvinism teaches that the Spirit is irresistible. I hope you won't be like others, who after I have pointed out repeatedly that it does not teach that, keep on mocking the notion. It is a strawman.

What Calvinists and Reformed are referring to as the Irresistible work of the Holy Spirit is the result of the indwelling, which God does to his elect quite apart from any permission from them or even any consultation with them. It is not a question of whether they can resist or not, but that they are not in any causal sense even involved in the act. They are certainly involved, in that it is their heart and mind that is reborn, but they did not choose it, and in some cases are not even at first apparently aware that it has even happened to them. They do not make the choice to cause their own regeneration. That is the work of God alone.
 
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Mikeseven

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Free will simply means that there is an entity, me, that is free from external influences and can make decisions based on the person's own internal makeup. Dictionary it states, "the ability to act at one's own discretion."

I am not too sure what you mean by the second answer. From my understanding each person has his own desires that he gets, not from God, but from his personal nature. For instance satan is satan. satan gets his nature from what he is naturally. god didn't make satan to have those desires rather that is what he is. he is a lover of lies. When you state that "he himself does the tempting" was that a mistake on your part.

My main point with including Acts 7:51 was to point out that it seems that man does have freedom to resist the Holy Spirit. This implies free will. I never said anything about irresistible. But if you affirm that people can resist the spirit then it is from their own freedom that they are doing it.

My main purpose here is simply to learn. I am going to a Calvinist church right now and really have never studied on it much.

Also what is the Calvinist opinion on the response below from Dr. Craig. You can find the full answer here if you would like: Is Faith a Gift of the Holy Spirit? | Reasonable Faith


Dr. Craig Quote:
"Since we should not think, with our Reformed brethren, that saving faith is the result of unilateral divine determinism, the act of saving faith must involve the free response of the human will to the Holy Spirit’s conviction and drawing. This understanding does not make saving faith a work that we perform, as our Reformed brethren allege. As I emphasize in my Defenders lectures on Doctrine of Salvation, Paul consistently opposes faith to works; he does not think of faith as a kind of meritorious work. The Christian philosopher Eleanore Stump has given a good account of the relationship between human free will and the work of the Holy Spirit in producing saving faith. On her account faith is not even a positive act of our will to accept God’s grace in response to the convicting and drawing of the Holy Spirit. Rather it is the purely negative act of ceasing to resist the Holy Spirit and so allowing Him to produce saving faith in our hearts. On this view saving faith is wrought by God, a gift of the Holy Spirit, but it is not something that overrides human free will.

So I think that we can take faith to be something that is supernaturally given by the Holy Spirit without falling into the clutches of the Charybdis of universalism or of the Scylla of a less than all-loving God."
 
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Mark Quayle

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Free will simply means that there is an entity, me, that is free from external influences and can make decisions based on the person's own internal makeup. Dictionary it states, "the ability to act at one's own discretion."
Dictionaries in general give a meaning according to use of the term. To provide not-too-long definitions sometimes, as with this one, they are necessarily vague. This definition you give can be taken to include what has been described to me as "libertarian freewill" (i.e. uncaused choice), or if I didn't know there was such a notion, I could take it to mean only what I think: I say that I believe in Free Will, but all I mean by that is that our choices are real, with real, even eternal consequences. It does not mean "uncaused" choice.

So what does the dictionary mean by "free from external influences"? Is it merely a tautology—reiterated as "based on the person's own internal makeup."? Or does it mean that a person can choose without their choice being specifically caused, rendering Free Will a fiction?

According to Calvinism, because it is according to Scripture (See John 1), "ALL things were made by him".

So, to return to your OP, I'd have to answer your question about free will by bringing up the concept of God's decree. In the Westminster Confession of Faith we find this beautifully written statement in Chapter 3: "God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established." God did ordain whatsoever comes to pass.

People certainly do choose according to their own internal makeup, but there is no reason to pretend that their own internal makeup was not predetermined. Every detail is decreed. Even Satan's choices are the result of his evil desires and plans, specifically decreed in every regard.

Logically also, there is no such thing as absolute spontaneity in the creature, because all things are caused, descending by the "chain of causation" by First Cause, God.

Let me also introduce here, the fact that First Cause is by definition the only "brute fact" (that is, the only thing that "just is"). God is the only thing that exists in and of himself. All other things are caused to exist, to include every tiniest detail. God "invented" all fact, and indeed, reality itself. He is not subject to it, but it to him. Nothing —certainly not our choices— exist by other means outside of God's 'say-so'. "There are no little first causes trotting about the planet." This is Sovereignty.

I am not too sure what you mean by the second answer. From my understanding each person has his own desires that he gets, not from God, but from his personal nature. For instance satan is satan. satan gets his nature from what he is naturally. god didn't make satan to have those desires rather that is what he is. he is a lover of lies. When you state that "he himself does the tempting" was that a mistake on your part.
How do you know God did not make Satan to be as he is, and that, in every way? You seem to use the word, "naturally", to imply that there is something that "just is", apart from causation from first cause. True, Lucifer was not originally as he is now. But what he is now was established, and that, in every detail, by God's decree.

You misquote me, to leave out the context of what little you did quote: "he himself does the tempting". But I suppose I could have written the entire sentence more clearly or simply. Let me try again: {God causing that specific temptations occur} is quite a different thing from {implying that God himself does the tempting}. I do not say that God does the tempting, as Scripture says that he does not tempt anyone.
My main point with including Acts 7:51 was to point out that it seems that man does have freedom to resist the Holy Spirit. This implies free will. I never said anything about irresistible. But if you affirm that people can resist the spirit then it is from their own freedom that they are doing it.
It is an assumption, unproven, if you think that "resist the spirit [is] from their own freedom" means that this resisting is uncaused by God. God himself is the only 'fact' that does not descend causally from first cause. And by the way, the notion of unGodliness caused by God is not without example in Scripture. We harden our hearts, but so does God harden our hearts.
My main purpose here is simply to learn. I am going to a Calvinist church right now and really have never studied on it much.
FWIW, I am far from the only one who arrived at what is essentially called Calvinism from outside of it. I didn't even know that what I had come to believe was essentially Calvinism, or Reformed Theology, until it was pointed out to me.
Also what is the Calvinist opinion on the response below from Dr. Craig. You can find the full answer here if you would like: Is Faith a Gift of the Holy Spirit? | Reasonable Faith

Dr. Craig Quote:
"Since we should not think, with our Reformed brethren, that saving faith is the result of unilateral divine determinism, the act of saving faith must involve the free response of the human will to the Holy Spirit’s conviction and drawing. This understanding does not make saving faith a work that we perform, as our Reformed brethren allege. As I emphasize in my Defenders lectures on Doctrine of Salvation, Paul consistently opposes faith to works; he does not think of faith as a kind of meritorious work. The Christian philosopher Eleanore Stump has given a good account of the relationship between human free will and the work of the Holy Spirit in producing saving faith. On her account faith is not even a positive act of our will to accept God’s grace in response to the convicting and drawing of the Holy Spirit. Rather it is the purely negative act of ceasing to resist the Holy Spirit and so allowing Him to produce saving faith in our hearts. On this view saving faith is wrought by God, a gift of the Holy Spirit, but it is not something that overrides human free will.
Bear in mind that William Lane Craig not only hails from a Wesleyan background, that in essence has all eternity hinging on the will of man, but also from what he has arrived at —the notion of "middle knowledge"— which contradicts God omnipotence, rendering him less than First Cause. Molinism claims that there are things possible in and of themselves, apart from God's decree. This means there are things possibly existing co-eternally with God. Thus, it, as with Open Theism, renders God not the only first cause.
WLC, cont. (MQ) : So I think that we can take faith to be something that is supernaturally given by the Holy Spirit without falling into the clutches of the Charybdis of universalism or of the Scylla of a less than all-loving God."
This statement is typical of those who want their readers to discard their opponents' assertions, without proving their opponents wrong. They wax poetic, implying something monstrous about their opponents' beliefs. Here WLC tosses into the ring only two choices, as if that is all that opposes his narrative —implying that the only alternatives to Molinism are Universalism and the [supposedly Calvinistic] "less-than-all-loving" God. What does he even mean, by "all-loving God"? That's a sweet-sounding phrase, and it would seem anathema to oppose it, but exactly what is really implied by it? Notice here, too, that by leaving them out of his equation, WLC doesn't show any difference between Molinism and Arminianism or Open-Theism, or even Pelagianism. In the end analysis, there is no real difference. They all deny God's omnipotence.

It is an arminianistic notion that God is not particular. It is self-determinism that supposes anything can happen apart from God's decree.
 
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Blade

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"Free will simply means that there is an entity, me, that is free from external influences and can make decisions based on the person's own internal makeup. Dictionary it states, "the ability to act at one's own discretion.""

We can't take GOD put Him on one side and Satan on the other and think we get some choice. This world is not real so to speak and we live in a time bubble on this blue ball which has a time limit on it. There are "influences" around us every moment be it in the natural or supernatural. We believe every thought we have is our own this is not true. We think were free yet before Christ we were in chains yet now set free because of Christ but this flesh has not been changed and it loves to sin. Part of you now does not want to ever sin yet another part of you loves to sin. This free choice was based on a lie that we would be like God knowing good and evil and would never die.

What was before the fall yet now because of the fall is polluted with sin. So as its written we see through this clouded glass. We can not see the truth. So this thought of "free choice" one has to take into account add to the equation all this and so much more. So one can ignore God thinking everything they do is their free choice a truth yet not. Its still influenced some way some how by just walking this earth as a Christian Rapper said "

"I look around at this world we walk on
It's a smack in the face, don't ever tell me there's no God
And if there isn't then what are we here for?
And what are y'all doing down there? I don't know Lord"

Where what how.. God is ...is real all the rest is because of sin and a lie telling us we can choose. That free choice is based on a lie. In heaven there was one that sin was found in. He one of if not the most beautiful made a choice and took his angels with him. There was no place found in heaven for him so God created a place hell made for the devil and his angels. Its not as I read and understand the resting place for sinners. It was never made for man it was made for Satan. He and all his angels and all that truly know and follow him and hell will be tossed in the fire.

When we die and go to be with our Father this "thought" of free will wont there. You will just know see and understand....oooh I'm HOME! Like the song we all gotta serve somebody. Christ said we can't have two masters. See you have to serve one or the other there is no middle ground here.

For me someone lied took what was mine and now I wait until his time is gone as the demons said to Christ when they say Him "have you come to torment us before our time".
 
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Mikeseven

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Dictionaries in general give a meaning according to use of the term. To provide not-too-long definitions sometimes, as with this one, they are necessarily vague. This definition you give can be taken to include what has been described to me as "libertarian freewill" (i.e. uncaused choice), or if I didn't know there was such a notion, I could take it to mean only what I think: I say that I believe in Free Will, but all I mean by that is that our choices are real, with real, even eternal consequences. It does not mean "uncaused" choice.

So what does the dictionary mean by "free from external influences"? Is it merely a tautology—reiterated as "based on the person's own internal makeup."? Or does it mean that a person can choose without their choice being specifically caused, rendering Free Will a fiction?

According to Calvinism, because it is according to Scripture (See John 1), "ALL things were made by him".

So, to return to your OP, I'd have to answer your question about free will by bringing up the concept of God's decree. In the Westminster Confession of Faith we find this beautifully written statement in Chapter 3: "God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established." God did ordain whatsoever comes to pass.

People certainly do choose according to their own internal makeup, but there is no reason to pretend that their own internal makeup was not predetermined. Every detail is decreed. Even Satan's choices are the result of his evil desires and plans, specifically decreed in every regard.

Logically also, there is no such thing as absolute spontaneity in the creature, because all things are caused, descending by the "chain of causation" by First Cause, God.

Let me also introduce here, the fact that First Cause is by definition the only "brute fact" (that is, the only thing that "just is"). God is the only thing that exists in and of himself. All other things are caused to exist, to include every tiniest detail. God "invented" all fact, and indeed, reality itself. He is not subject to it, but it to him. Nothing —certainly not our choices— exist by other means outside of God's 'say-so'. "There are no little first causes trotting about the planet." This is Sovereignty.


How do you know God did not make Satan to be as he is, and that, in every way? You seem to use the word, "naturally", to imply that there is something that "just is", apart from causation from first cause. True, Lucifer was not originally as he is now. But what he is now was established, and that, in every detail, by God's decree.

You misquote me, to leave out the context of what little you did quote: "he himself does the tempting". But I suppose I could have written the entire sentence more clearly or simply. Let me try again: {God causing that specific temptations occur} is quite a different thing from {implying that God himself does the tempting}. I do not say that God does the tempting, as Scripture says that he does not tempt anyone.

It is an assumption, unproven, if you think that "resist the spirit [is] from their own freedom" means that this resisting is uncaused by God. God himself is the only 'fact' that does not descend causally from first cause. And by the way, the notion of unGodliness caused by God is not without example in Scripture. We harden our hearts, but so does God harden our hearts.

FWIW, I am far from the only one who arrived at what is essentially called Calvinism from outside of it. I didn't even know that what I had come to believe was essentially Calvinism, or Reformed Theology, until it was pointed out to me.

Bear in mind that William Lane Craig not only hails from a Wesleyan background, that in essence has all eternity hinging on the will of man, but also from what he has arrived at —the notion of "middle knowledge"— which contradicts God omnipotence, rendering him less than First Cause. Molinism claims that there are things possible in and of themselves, apart from God's decree. This means there are things possibly existing co-eternally with God. Thus, it, as with Open Theism, renders God not the only first cause.

This statement is typical of those who want their readers to discard their opponents' assertions, without proving their opponents wrong. They wax poetic, implying something monstrous about their opponents' beliefs. Here WLC tosses into the ring only two choices, as if that is all that opposes his narrative —implying that the only alternatives to Molinism are Universalism and the [supposedly Calvinistic] "less-than-all-loving" God. What does he even mean, by "all-loving God"? That's a sweet-sounding phrase, and it would seem anathema to oppose it, but exactly what is really implied by it? Notice here, too, that by leaving them out of his equation, WLC doesn't show any difference between Molinism and Arminianism or Open-Theism, or even Pelagianism. In the end analysis, there is no real difference. They all deny God's omnipotence.

It is an arminianistic notion that God is not particular. It is self-determinism that supposes anything can happen apart from God's decree.
Thanks for the response. You do know your stuff.

Why I am responding. I have read and have heard reports of people leaving Christianity because of Calvinism. This is sad to hear. I myself am trying to see if they were misinterpreting it etc.

With free will it would have to be an uncaused choice. Just like God freely choose to create the world we can freely choose to do actions. You seem to state that because God is the first of all choices then all other choices are not free will because they rely on that first choice. I don't think uncaused choice is reliant on the parameters you give. If God chooses to bring something into existence that has free will and able to make choices based on its own nature that is possible. It would be like me waking my friend who then has a choice to either eat breakfast or study for a test. While he couldn't make the choice if I hadn't woken him he still can freely choose which route to take based on his internal nature. I take the below verse to be talking about nature. I think our nature is intrinsic to ourselves. God has a divine nature and we have our natures. We are what we are. If I had a different nature then I wouldn’t be me.

James 5:17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth.

_____________________________________________________________________________________

Job 3:20-26 NIV

“Why is light given to those in misery, and life to the bitter of soul, to those who long for death that does not come, who search for it more than for hidden treasure, who are filled with gladness and rejoice when they reach the grave? Why is life given to a man whose way is hidden, whom God has hedged in? For sighing has become my daily food; my groans pour out like water. What I feared has come upon me; what I dreaded has happened to me. I have no peace, no quietness; I have no rest, but only turmoil.”



Romans 4:17 - as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist.

When I read the two verses above, I take it to mean that God gives light to the things that could exist. So he brings them into existence. So for instance, it is possible that God could have created another world. These worlds don't exist but they could exist so they exist only in the sense of possible worlds. God could actualize these worlds by giving them light. But there are other entities like the number 7 that just exist. They exist eternally. I don't take this to lower Gods power at all because it is like asking is it possible that God could create a square circle. Asking that is meaningless because it doesn't make any sense.

When you state that, "(See John 1), "ALL things were made by him"." I would agree and state that God chose to create creatures with free will but places them in situations knowing what choices they would make so that the evil they cause only serves for an end that is ultimately good. We might state why didn't God create a world where only goodness dwells. Such a world might not be possible given that creatures have free will. So God creates a world with creatures that have free will and arranges it so that the evil choices they make will ultimately serve a higher purpose. Like the way how Joseph was betrayed by his brothers only to save them and have a story told about him to serve latter generations.


But with everything I think it is imperative that we take the scriptures as a whole and not just one part. So when you state that, "all things were made by him" it is also clear that scripture states that satan is the father of lies. Lies are a product of the evil one. God is the Father of all that is good and holy.



I don’t think that Dr. Craig believes that there are things that exist co eternally with Him. These are only possible worlds. For instance, God could have created a world with different animals. These are only possible scenarios. But there are things that just exist like the number seven or the law of noncontradiction. Again I don’t think this lowers Gods power. It is like saying God can do the impossible. If it is possible to do then it wouldn’t be impossible and so the statement has no logical meaning. God is logical in every way.

They are only possible in the sense that God can bring them into being. That is my understanding. Apart from God they don’t exist. They only exist I guess in the realm of possibility. A square circle doesn’t exist in the realm of possibility.

Also, even if free will exists in the way I state, I don’t believe that anything can exist apart from his decree. Because he has to call the being into existence, and he also has to allow them to make their choices.



BTW: I guess I should say that watching the videos below and thinking about joining a pca church is what started me on this rabbit hole.





Not trying to change anybody’s opinion here, just trying to learn. I am not that naive. Love the replies!
 
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Mark Quayle

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Thanks for the response. You do know your stuff.

Why I am responding. I have read and have heard reports of people leaving Christianity because of Calvinism. This is sad to hear. I myself am trying to see if they were misinterpreting it etc.
I would guess there are just as many, if not more, leaving because of Arminianistic theology. I came 'closer' to doing so than I would like to admit, though, obviously, not really so, because God had his hand on me the whole time. The notion that eternity hinges on the integrity of my will is, after awhile of trying to live up to what it takes, a mocking of reality. But being, instead, at God's severe mercy, and only that, with the satisfying knowledge that he will be just and will accomplish only, and all, that he set out to do, what he intended from the beginning to do, is so good that it makes me want to say that even if I am in the end condemned, that he is still to be praised.
With free will it would have to be an uncaused choice. Just like God freely choose to create the world we can freely choose to do actions. You seem to state that because God is the first of all choices then all other choices are not free will because they rely on that first choice. I don't think uncaused choice is reliant on the parameters you give. If God chooses to bring something into existence that has free will and able to make choices based on its own nature that is possible. It would be like me waking my friend who then has a choice to either eat breakfast or study for a test. While he couldn't make the choice if I hadn't woken him he still can freely choose which route to take based on his internal nature. I take the below verse to be talking about nature. I think our nature is intrinsic to ourselves. God has a divine nature and we have our natures. We are what we are. If I had a different nature then I wouldn’t be me.

James 5:17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth.

_____________________________________________________________________________________

Job 3:20-26 NIV

“Why is light given to those in misery, and life to the bitter of soul, to those who long for death that does not come, who search for it more than for hidden treasure, who are filled with gladness and rejoice when they reach the grave? Why is life given to a man whose way is hidden, whom God has hedged in? For sighing has become my daily food; my groans pour out like water. What I feared has come upon me; what I dreaded has happened to me. I have no peace, no quietness; I have no rest, but only turmoil.”



Romans 4:17 - as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist.

When I read the two verses above, I take it to mean that God gives light to the things that could exist. So he brings them into existence. So for instance, it is possible that God could have created another world. These worlds don't exist but they could exist so they exist only in the sense of possible worlds. God could actualize these worlds by giving them light. But there are other entities like the number 7 that just exist. They exist eternally. I don't take this to lower Gods power at all because it is like asking is it possible that God could create a square circle. Asking that is meaningless because it doesn't make any sense.
Consider this construction: "The only thing that can happen is what does happen". And then try to prove it wrong. You have to assume an awful lot of temporal human notions.

One thing is for sure, that if there are any other possibilities, they are ONLY in him. It is not that he can see them, but that they come from him, if there is even anything to them. But since I see no such thing from him, but only in hypotheticals that he poses us concerning decisions to obey and such, I don't think they are even real, except as notions to consider as to knowing what is good and useful, and what is not.
When you state that, "(See John 1), "ALL things were made by him"." I would agree and state that God chose to create creatures with free will but places them in situations knowing what choices they would make so that the evil they cause only serves for an end that is ultimately good. We might state why didn't God create a world where only goodness dwells. Such a world might not be possible given that creatures have free will. So God creates a world with creatures that have free will and arranges it so that the evil choices they make will ultimately serve a higher purpose. Like the way how Joseph was betrayed by his brothers only to save them and have a story told about him to serve latter generations.
But then, again, what does that term, "free will", mean? Uncaused choice? As you may have heard, many, probably most, believers, who, if presented with the logic of causality, (without knowing they are about to step in a trap), freely admit to choices being caused, by the chain of events and influences and so on, that precede the choice, are suddenly stricken by deep spiritual indigestion at the notion that God is at the head of those chains of causation.
But with everything I think it is imperative that we take the scriptures as a whole and not just one part. So when you state that, "all things were made by him" it is also clear that scripture states that satan is the father of lies. Lies are a product of the evil one. God is the Father of all that is good and holy.
Yet, logically, those lies would not have happened had he not intended that they happen. No, he is not the author of sin, but he caused that it be. (But that can be a long discussion in itself.) Even the Arminian, if hard pressed, will agree that God knew what would happen when he created what would come to that happening. Thus, it must be admitted that he intended that it happen.
I don’t think that Dr. Craig believes that there are things that exist co eternally with Him. These are only possible worlds. For instance, God could have created a world with different animals. These are only possible scenarios. But there are things that just exist like the number seven or the law of noncontradiction. Again I don’t think this lowers Gods power. It is like saying God can do the impossible. If it is possible to do then it wouldn’t be impossible and so the statement has no logical meaning. God is logical in every way.

They are only possible in the sense that God can bring them into being. That is my understanding. Apart from God they don’t exist. They only exist I guess in the realm of possibility. A square circle doesn’t exist in the realm of possibility.

Also, even if free will exists in the way I state, I don’t believe that anything can exist apart from his decree. Because he has to call the being into existence, and he also has to allow them to make their choices.
Exactly so. The logically self-contradictory is a bogus concept. God needn't give it the respect we do, by considering whether he can do it or not. It is foolishness.

But you sound like you think the question of free will is decided by whether man chooses vs God choosing. That too is a bogus concept. The one does not rule the other out. God chooses to use our choices, and his choices are immutable, and deterministic. We 'freely' choose, as you said, according to our nature. If one's nature is, as Romans 8 says, of the flesh and not of the Spirit of God, it is unable to choose God —and as "Total Depravity" teaches, even if it thinks it is choosing God, it is not, because it cannot submit to God, while simultaneously being at enmity with God.
BTW: I guess I should say that watching the videos below and thinking about joining a pca church is what started me on this rabbit hole.





Not trying to change anybody’s opinion here, just trying to learn. I am not that naive. Love the replies!
Maybe the best warning I can give you about any rabbit-hole is to be wary of philosophy, theology, or any other thing that assumes substance to the will of man, as though he can somehow of himself do what only God can do. Just as a quick "for instance": Can you show me how man's decision to "accept Christ", can be of any integrity in and of that person? —We do not have the purity of strength, knowledge, wisdom and understanding, dedication, desire, to even know what God has done for us, nor what we are committing to, to even approach worthiness in that regard, even as regenerated redeemed, neverminding that we don't as spiritually dead lost and unable to seek him. But the Spirit of God has that in abundance, and is more than able to do within us everything that needs done, and to BE the source of that necessary faith.
 
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Mikeseven

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On a personal note, I hope people realize that this is a peripheral issue, it is not fundamental to the faith, and that there are many things that are mysterious that we will never know. We should focus on living our lives according to what Christ commanded us. The gospel isn’t supposed to be complicated, and in fact it is not. Perhaps the real answer is too mysterious for us, just like the Trinity. But this is interesting anyway.
I would guess there are just as many, if not more, leaving because of Arminianistic theology. I came 'closer' to doing so than I would like to admit, though, obviously, not really so, because God had his hand on me the whole time. The notion that eternity hinges on the integrity of my will is, after awhile of trying to live up to what it takes, a mocking of reality. But being, instead, at God's severe mercy, and only that, with the satisfying knowledge that he will be just and will accomplish only, and all, that he set out to do, what he intended from the beginning to do, is so good that it makes me want to say that even if I am in the end condemned, that he is still to be praised.
I do believe that this issue isn’t a big deal. And have never sought to convert someone out of an Arminian/Calvinist view. I just don’t think it matters. But for some people it matters and perhaps it is a good thing to let people know there are multiple ways of interpreting this stuff. At the end of the day it is God's mercy and Christ's salvation that we need. We cannot enter heaven on our own accord. Dr. Craig thinks that all that the person is doing is “the purely negative act of ceasing to resist the Holy Spirit and so allowing Him to produce saving faith in our hearts. On this view saving faith is wrought by God, a gift of the Holy Spirit, but it is not something that overrides human free will.” Is that acceptable to a Calvinist? I don’t believe I got an opinion from you on it.
Consider this construction: "The only thing that can happen is what does happen". And then try to prove it wrong. You have to assume an awful lot of temporal human notions.

One thing is for sure, that if there are any other possibilities, they are ONLY in him. It is not that he can see them, but that they come from him, if there is even anything to them. But since I see no such thing from him, but only in hypotheticals that he poses us concerning decisions to obey and such, I don't think they are even real, except as notions to consider as to knowing what is good and useful, and what is not.

But then, again, what does that term, "free will", mean? Uncaused choice? As you may have heard, many, probably most, believers, who, if presented with the logic of causality, (without knowing they are about to step in a trap), freely admit to choices being caused, by the chain of events and influences and so on, that precede the choice, are suddenly stricken by deep spiritual indigestion at the notion that God is at the head of those chains of causation.
I think that everything that is, is because He called it into being. When you talk about the logic of causality this is the way how I see it. I don’t see us like molecules in motion. Like simple laws. If I hit a ball with infinite amount of balls in front and it is in a complete vacuum and no friction then the balls will continue to hit each other based on simple laws of force. I don’t see us like just matter that act based on laws. God freely chose to create the universe with laws. God also freely chose to create beings in His own image and sense we bear that image we have free will as well. There is then a physical and spiritual realm. I don’t think the causes in the physical realm prior to our choice negate that free will choice in the spiritual realm. So if someone knows something is good and knows something is evil and chooses the evil over the good it is because the being had a preference for evil over good. Its very nature is that way. Did God create our nature? I think like I said early we are what we are. And if we didn’t have this nature then I wouldn’t be me and you wouldn’t be you.
Yet, logically, those lies would not have happened had he not intended that they happen. No, he is not the author of sin, but he caused that it be. (But that can be a long discussion in itself.) Even the Arminian, if hard pressed, will agree that God knew what would happen when he created what would come to that happening. Thus, it must be admitted that he intended that it happen.
I completely agree that God new what would happen. But like I said earlier he gives people free will but arranges everything so that ultimately good will happen.
Exactly so. The logically self-contradictory is a bogus concept. God needn't give it the respect we do, by considering whether he can do it or not. It is foolishness.

But you sound like you think the question of free will is decided by whether man chooses vs God choosing. That too is a bogus concept. The one does not rule the other out. God chooses to use our choices, and his choices are immutable, and deterministic. We 'freely' choose, as you said, according to our nature. If one's nature is, as Romans 8 says, of the flesh and not of the Spirit of God, it is unable to choose God —and as "Total Depravity" teaches, even if it thinks it is choosing God, it is not, because it cannot submit to God, while simultaneously being at enmity with God.
I am not speaking about the doctrine of total depravity. I think it is quite possible that our natures could be so corrupt that we are completely unable to respond. This would mean that it is completely because of Gods mercy. However, I would still need to fit this passage in there somehow: Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you.” This implies that Stephen was not resisting the Holy Spirit, so perhaps Dr. Craigs response is suitable where he states it is the “purely negative act of ceasing to resist the Holy Spirit”. I am not sure if the Calvinist would agree or not with that. Dr. Craig claims this act isn’t meritorious at all. It is more like a neutral act. Thoughts?
Maybe the best warning I can give you about any rabbit-hole is to be wary of philosophy, theology, or any other thing that assumes substance to the will of man, as though he can somehow of himself do what only God can do. Just as a quick "for instance": Can you show me how man's decision to "accept Christ", can be of any integrity in and of that person? —We do not have the purity of strength, knowledge, wisdom and understanding, dedication, desire, to even know what God has done for us, nor what we are committing to, to even approach worthiness in that regard, even as regenerated redeemed, neverminding that we don't as spiritually dead lost and unable to seek him. But the Spirit of God has that in abundance, and is more than able to do within us everything that needs done, and to BE the source of that necessary faith.
When you state, “how man’s decision to “accept Christ”, can be of any integrity in and of that person?” Dr. Craig suggests that it is only the negative act of ceasing to resist the Holy Spirit. I agree that all good things come from God. Whether it be faith, love, truth. I think people can separate themselves from God if they continue in their rebellion. So I have no intention on putting man on any pedestal. Just like Christ said in the New Testament that the chief witness to who He is will be the Holy Spirit. The Holy Scripture is definitely good and helpful for the Christian life but not necessary. The first Christians only had the gospel preach to them, were baptized, and had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
 
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Mark Quayle

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On a personal note, I hope people realize that this is a peripheral issue, it is not fundamental to the faith, and that there are many things that are mysterious that we will never know. We should focus on living our lives according to what Christ commanded us. The gospel isn’t supposed to be complicated, and in fact it is not. Perhaps the real answer is too mysterious for us, just like the Trinity. But this is interesting anyway.

I do believe that this issue isn’t a big deal. And have never sought to convert someone out of an Arminian/Calvinist view. I just don’t think it matters. But for some people it matters and perhaps it is a good thing to let people know there are multiple ways of interpreting this stuff. At the end of the day it is God's mercy and Christ's salvation that we need. We cannot enter heaven on our own accord. Dr. Craig thinks that all that the person is doing is “the purely negative act of ceasing to resist the Holy Spirit and so allowing Him to produce saving faith in our hearts. On this view saving faith is wrought by God, a gift of the Holy Spirit, but it is not something that overrides human free will.” Is that acceptable to a Calvinist? I don’t believe I got an opinion from you on it.

I think that everything that is, is because He called it into being. When you talk about the logic of causality this is the way how I see it. I don’t see us like molecules in motion. Like simple laws. If I hit a ball with infinite amount of balls in front and it is in a complete vacuum and no friction then the balls will continue to hit each other based on simple laws of force. I don’t see us like just matter that act based on laws. God freely chose to create the universe with laws. God also freely chose to create beings in His own image and sense we bear that image we have free will as well. There is then a physical and spiritual realm. I don’t think the causes in the physical realm prior to our choice negate that free will choice in the spiritual realm. So if someone knows something is good and knows something is evil and chooses the evil over the good it is because the being had a preference for evil over good. Its very nature is that way. Did God create our nature? I think like I said early we are what we are. And if we didn’t have this nature then I wouldn’t be me and you wouldn’t be you.

I completely agree that God new what would happen. But like I said earlier he gives people free will but arranges everything so that ultimately good will happen.

I am not speaking about the doctrine of total depravity. I think it is quite possible that our natures could be so corrupt that we are completely unable to respond. This would mean that it is completely because of Gods mercy. However, I would still need to fit this passage in there somehow: Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you.” This implies that Stephen was not resisting the Holy Spirit, so perhaps Dr. Craigs response is suitable where he states it is the “purely negative act of ceasing to resist the Holy Spirit”. I am not sure if the Calvinist would agree or not with that. Dr. Craig claims this act isn’t meritorious at all. It is more like a neutral act. Thoughts?

When you state, “how man’s decision to “accept Christ”, can be of any integrity in and of that person?” Dr. Craig suggests that it is only the negative act of ceasing to resist the Holy Spirit. I agree that all good things come from God. Whether it be faith, love, truth. I think people can separate themselves from God if they continue in their rebellion. So I have no intention on putting man on any pedestal. Just like Christ said in the New Testament that the chief witness to who He is will be the Holy Spirit. The Holy Scripture is definitely good and helpful for the Christian life but not necessary. The first Christians only had the gospel preach to them, were baptized, and had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
I hope you understand that WLC's construction is an attempt to reconcile an arminianistic, self-deterministic worldview with Logic. It is not Orthodoxy, and thus suspect, to be tested rigorously. And it does not bear out, as I have shown: it does not allow for God to be altogether omnipotent, since (according to it) God does not determine all things, and thus is not the first cause of all things.

If there is reality outside of God's causation, he is not God. —That is why this is a hill to die on.


But I will happily admit that those who do not agree with me on this can still be believers, redeemed, even enlightened. After all, what do I have quite right? My understanding is nowhere close to the infinity of truth.
 
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Mikeseven

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When you state that it isn't Orthodoxy do you mean that Calvinism has been the traditional view. What view has the earliest attestation? It doesn't seem like any view does. I read a greek orthodox claiming that arminianism was much closer to their view than calvinism.

Omnipotent means to be able to do anything. I don't see why God allowing people to make free choices would nullify God's Omnipotent status. The two don't seem to be in conflict with one another. Correct me if you think otherwise but if God allows people to make free choices all things are still in his hands sense he knows what will happen and allows it to happen for a greater good.
 
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Good Day, Mikeseven

You may find this useful:

1689 LBC Chapter 9.

The 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith


CHAP. IX.
Of Free Will.

1. God hath indued the Will of Man, with that natural liberty, and power of acting upon choice;
that it is 169neither forced, nor by any necessity of nature determined to do good or evil.
2. Man in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power, to will, and to do that 170which was
good, and well-pleasing to God; but yet 171was mutable, so that he might fall from it.
3. Man by his fall into a state of sin hath wholly lost 172all ability of Will, to any spiritual good
accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, 173and dead in Sin, is not able, by his own strength, to 174convert himself; or to prepare himself thereunto.4. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of Grace 175he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin, and by his grace alone, enables him 176freely to will, and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so as that by reason of his 177remaining corruptions he doth not perfectly nor only will that which is good; but doth also will that which is evil. 5. The Will of Man is made 178perfectly, and immutably free to good alone, in the state of Glory
only.

RC Sproul explains further



In Him,

Bill
 
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Mark Quayle

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Good Day, Mikeseven

You may find this useful:

1689 LBC Chapter 9.

The 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith


CHAP. IX.
Of Free Will.

1. God hath indued the Will of Man, with that natural liberty, and power of acting upon choice;
that it is 169neither forced, nor by any necessity of nature determined to do good or evil.
2. Man in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power, to will, and to do that 170which was
good, and well-pleasing to God; but yet 171was mutable, so that he might fall from it.
3. Man by his fall into a state of sin hath wholly lost 172all ability of Will, to any spiritual good
accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, 173and dead in Sin, is not able, by his own strength, to 174convert himself; or to prepare himself thereunto.4. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of Grace 175he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin, and by his grace alone, enables him 176freely to will, and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so as that by reason of his 177remaining corruptions he doth not perfectly nor only will that which is good; but doth also will that which is evil. 5. The Will of Man is made 178perfectly, and immutably free to good alone, in the state of Glory
only.

RC Sproul explains further



In Him,

Bill
Somewhere else, Sproul makes the argument that if we are, as they claim, truly indifferent, (I wish I could remember how he put it), that he wonders how in the world does anybody choose anything at all!

Something he sometimes brings up so clearly, is that some of the things that the semi-pelagian, arminianistic (my word), believers claim so easily, simply CANNOT make sense, because those things actually are either this or that —not 'sort of'. One either is, or is not, independent of causation, for example; and "Chance" either is real, or it is just a shortcut to, "I don't know."
 
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Somewhere else, Sproul makes the argument that if we are, as they claim, truly indifferent, (I wish I could remember how he put it), that he wonders how in the world does anybody choose anything at all!

Something he sometimes brings up so clearly, is that some of the things that the semi-pelagian, arminianistic (my word), believers claim so easily, simply CANNOT make sense, because those things actually are either this or that —not 'sort of'. One either is, or is not, independent of causation, for example; and "Chance" either is real, or it is just a shortcut to, "I don't know."
Good Day, Mark

This one....?

 
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Why I am responding. I have read and have heard reports of people leaving Christianity because of Calvinism. This is sad to hear. I myself am trying to see if they were misinterpreting it etc.

I would guess there are just as many, if not more, leaving because of Arminianistic theology. I came 'closer' to doing so than I would like to admit, though, obviously, not really so, because God had his hand on me the whole time. The notion that eternity hinges on the integrity of my will is, after awhile of trying to live up to what it takes, a mocking of reality. But being, instead, at God's severe mercy, and only that, with the satisfying knowledge that he will be just and will accomplish only, and all, that he set out to do, what he intended from the beginning to do, is so good that it makes me want to say that even if I am in the end condemned, that he is still to be praised.

I am one of those who left Arminianism for Calvinism.

But that is not what Mikeseven said.... He is expressing that people leave "Christianity" because of Calvinism. That raises so many questions... How is "Christianity" being defined? That statement could mean that someone left Mormonism for secularism because they do not like Calvinists. It could mean that they were Pelagian and became atheist. Maybe Mikeseven is saying that people are leaving Arminian Churches, or at least non-Calvinist Churches because they do not like Calvinism.

On the other hand, he could be saying that people are leaving Calvinism for secularism. I am not aware of any scientific statistics. I can only respond anecdotally. I observe people leaving Reformed Churches, but they usually leave because they were never reformed in theology. I have seen people come because they like the youth group, or the programming in the church. Most reformed Churches are very creedal. When they are confronted with learning the theology, they suddenly say that they "don't think election is biblical, its robot theology." I must admit the shock is not when they leave, but the shock is that all they got out of the preaching and teaching is "election." I guess that is the great bugaboo that non-Calvinists cling too, but that is by no means all there is to Reformed theology. However, I have never, ever, seen someone leave the faith entirely because of Calvinism they usually just go to another Church. The statement by Mikeseven seems to be very ignorant of what life is like in a truly reformed Congregation.

Now for Mark Quayle's comments. It was the last statement that caught my attention. Mark Q said "that it makes me want to say that even if I am in the end condemned, that he is still to be praised." I admired the statement. This statement is the dividing line. It is the line in the sand between Reformed theology and non-Calvinist theology. Reformed theology has a high view of original sin. We know what we deserve. God would be just if he condemned all mankind to hell. We all deserve to suffer the fate of Amorites and Canaanites. We all deserve the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah. None of us deserve "a chance." Because Calvinists understand our own sinfulness better, we know the grace of God better. Thanks Mark!
 
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Let me put it this way:

If one is called to repentance but they do not respond to God's call & they end up leaving this earth without giving their life to Christ, that will mean that, they were not written in the book of life. But if they respond to God's call & start living for God till death, that means they were written in the book of life.

John 6 v35-37
35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
 
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