Truckers rail against new EPA rules mandating transition to ‘useless’ EV big rigs

[SimplyMe]

Is there any relevance in the fact that nobody's even discussing the pollution and ethics problems involved in the manufacture and disposal of these batteries? There is no such thing?

The issue of the pollution an ethics problems involved with the manufacture of batteries is contracted by the similar pollution and ethics problems with getting oil out of the ground, transporting it all over the world, refining it into gasoline, and then transporting it to where it gets pumped into the cars. Simply put, it is discussed and factored in but, despite that, EVs still pollute less.

As for "disposal," a large number of EV batteries are actually revitalized and then reused in various industries and even in home battery systems. There are also a number of new "recycling" businesses that are starting up that can reprocess the materials in the battery -- and those materials (to include the nickel, lithium, etc) can be reused in whatever industry needs it.

 

[Valletta]

The issue of the pollution an ethics problems involved with the manufacture of batteries is contracted by the similar pollution and ethics problems with getting oil out of the ground, transporting it all over the world, refining it into gasoline, and then transporting it to where it gets pumped into the cars. Simply put, it is discussed and factored in but, despite that, EVs still pollute less.

Wishful thinking. And there is the slave labor and foreign control while we had just reached being a fossil-fuel exporter under Trump.

As for "disposal," a large number of EV batteries are actually revitalized and then reused in various industries and even in home battery systems. There are also a number of new "recycling" businesses that are starting up that can reprocess the materials in the battery -- and those materials (to include the nickel, lithium, etc) can be reused in whatever industry needs it.

EV batteries are very hard to recycle, but some of their components, especially nickel and cobalt, are valuable enough to repay the investment.​

How well can electric vehicle batteries be recycled?

Many battery materials are valuable enough to repay the intensive work of recycling them—although we should still expect lots of demand for newly-mined nickel, cobalt, lithium and copper.

climate.mit.edu

 

[Mark Quayle]

The issue of the pollution an ethics problems involved with the manufacture of batteries is contracted by the similar pollution and ethics problems with getting oil out of the ground, transporting it all over the world, refining it into gasoline, and then transporting it to where it gets pumped into the cars. Simply put, it is discussed and factored in but, despite that, EVs still pollute less.

As for "disposal," a large number of EV batteries are actually revitalized and then reused in various industries and even in home battery systems. There are also a number of new "recycling" businesses that are starting up that can reprocess the materials in the battery -- and those materials (to include the nickel, lithium, etc) can be reused in whatever industry needs it.

Look into how lithium or cobalt is mined, for example —who actually does the work, and under what conditions.

Shocking truths behind smartphone and EV batteries: children mining cobalt

"The eight individuals in the group produced on average three sacks of washed heterogenite ore per day...an income of roughly $1.05 per team member per day."

www.newsweek.com

 

[Larniavc]

If the trucker can't earn a living driving, I suggest they go and find another line of work like line cook.

Or commercial diver. My wife did that before she became a midwife.

 

[SimplyMe]

Wishful thinking. And there is the slave labor and foreign control while we had just reached being a fossil-fuel exporter under Trump.

We're a bigger fossil-fuel exporter today, the #1 producer in the world, more than any country in history. "Not only is the U.S. producing more oil than any country in history, but the amount of oil (crude oil, refined products and natural gas liquids) that it is exporting is near the total production of Saudi Arabia or Russia."

EV batteries are very hard to recycle, but some of their components, especially nickel and cobalt, are valuable enough to repay the investment.​

How well can electric vehicle batteries be recycled?

Many battery materials are valuable enough to repay the intensive work of recycling them—although we should still expect lots of demand for newly-mined nickel, cobalt, lithium and copper.

climate.mit.edu

I think that sentence explains why so many are stepping into the battery recycling business; and again, many of the batteries are reused.

Look into how lithium or cobalt is mined, for example —who actually does the work, and under what conditions.

Shocking truths behind smartphone and EV batteries: children mining cobalt

"The eight individuals in the group produced on average three sacks of washed heterogenite ore per day...an income of roughly $1.05 per team member per day."

www.newsweek.com

I'm aware, as are those who do those types of analysis. It is also why part of the infrastructure project was to start mining many things here in the US, using modern techniques that don't require child labor or are as environmentally harmful.

 

[JustOneWay]

They don't want to hear about it.

Untrue. Why haven't you posted anything about it? I recall many discussions here about the very subject.

 

[AlexB23]

Is there any relevance in the fact that nobody's even discussing the pollution and ethics problems involved in the manufacture and disposal of these batteries? There is no such thing?

I have no idea why people are not talking about the cobalt mining ethics and issues. Probably cos it was talked about in other threads before. However, batteries are slowly switching away from cobalt, but not fast enough. Lithium is also an issue, though scientists are working on extracting lithium from seawater.

 

[Mark Quayle]

We're a bigger fossil-fuel exporter today, the #1 producer in the world, more than any country in history. "Not only is the U.S. producing more oil than any country in history, but the amount of oil (crude oil, refined products and natural gas liquids) that it is exporting is near the total production of Saudi Arabia or Russia."



I think that sentence explains why so many are stepping into the battery recycling business; and again, many of the batteries are reused.



I'm aware, as are those who do those types of analysis. It is also why part of the infrastructure project was to start mining many things here in the US, using modern techniques that don't require child labor or are as environmentally harmful.

I hope America will pick up the pace. Being a controls electrician, I love the thought of electric vehicles, but I don't trust reports I hear more and more of lately, that "we are doing this new thing and improving that old way, etc." I worked for State government for 13 years and got out of it, because I came to hate the bright and hopeful reports of always improving but never attaining. As long as people keep making it sound like the problems are in the process of being addressed, they seem to think they are no longer problems. It is a lie, along the same lines as what we hear daily anymore —that of "this new discovery has turned science on its head", or "this new invention has relegated the [whatever] industry superfluous", when the next week there is nothing more to hear on it.

Yeah, I'm skeptical.

 

[BCP1928]

They don't want to hear about it.

Well, you don't want to hear about it, evidently.

 

[rambot]

Is there any relevance in the fact that nobody's even discussing the pollution and ethics problems involved in the manufacture and disposal of these batteries? There is no such thing?

Yes. People ARE discussing that. In fact, quite a few groups are already trying to problem solve that.

And by the way, if the lithium in the lithium ion batteries can be recycled (which I believe, along with quite a few other expensive minerals), further down the road, that will have an impact on battery production as well....though that's further down the road.

Also, I'm not convinced that folks know that the two of the 3 largest sources of lithium harvest it from the ocean. safely

 

[wing2000]

who is even building a long-distance electric semi-truck? I saw something about a project from Tesla, but it ended in abject failure. (On the other hand, we should just stop building non-electric city busses.)

Nikola (in Arizona), Volvo, Mercedes Benz....

However, it will be sometime before EV's replace Diesel powered trucks to cover the long distances in the US. Short haul and last mile delivery (Amazon, UPS, etc) seems to be a better fit:

The “sweet spot” at the moment, beyond last-mile delivery, is using electric trucks for short-haul moves, particularly at ports and intermodal facilities. Last December, for example, Schneider announced that it was “taking delivery of nearly 100 Class 8 battery-electric vehicles (BEVs) at its intermodal operations in Southern California.” In February, Schneider’s CEO Mark Rourke was interviewed on CNBC’s “Squawk on the Street” about the future of EV trucks.

Electric Freight Trucks: Not Happening Anytime Soon for Long-Haul Moves

There are several challenges that must be overcome before electric freight trucks for long-haul moves can become a reality.

talkinglogistics.com

 

[Valletta]

We're a bigger fossil-fuel exporter today, the #1 producer in the world, more than any country in history. "Not only is the U.S. producing more oil than any country in history, but the amount of oil (crude oil, refined products and natural gas liquids) that it is exporting is near the total production of Saudi Arabia or Russia."

I should have said net exporter, it's gone back and forth in the last number of years since we reached energy independence under Trump. And we can see the direction Joe wants to take us.

 

[JustOneWay]

I should have said net exporter, it's gone back and forth in the last number of years since we reached energy independence under Trump. And we can see the direction Joe wants to take us.

Again, not true.

U.S. Energy Independence Soars To Highest Level In Over 70 Years

Newly released data from the Energy Information Administration provides a clear picture of U.S. energy independence in 2022.

www.forbes.com

U.S. Energy Independence Soars To Highest Level In Over 70 Years​

May 2, 2023,06:00am EDT

"Before delving into the topic of energy independence, it's important to establish a common definition. There are two ways to think about energy independence. One definition is that we produce more energy than we consume. Based on that definition, even if we import some energy, the fact that we produce more than enough to satisfy our needs would mean the U.S. is energy independent."

"I don’t find this definition very useful, because we began importing crude oil before 1950, and we have imported it every year since. Under this definition, the U.S. hasn’t been energy independent in at least 75 years."

"Thus, when someone says, “President Trump made us energy independent”, they are definitely not talking about this definition. During President Trump’s term, the U.S. imported an average of 9.3 million barrels per day (bpd) of crude oil and finished products per day."

 

[rambot]

I should have said net exporter, it's gone back and forth in the last number of years since we reached energy independence under Trump. And we can see the direction Joe wants to take us.

1)So...you know the reason why the classified the US as being energy independent is because the whole economy slowed down enough that it didn't need as much energy to begin with. I'ts not that Trump suddenly had MORE exporting than importing or whatever. Y'all just didn't need as much.
2)Also, the US has always imported energy. Always and forever. Even under Trump. So when you say "energy independent under Trump" what is your exact rubric for measuring that?

 

[Valletta]

Yes. People ARE discussing that. In fact, quite a few groups are already trying to problem solve that.

And by the way, if the lithium in the lithium ion batteries can be recycled (which I believe, along with quite a few other expensive minerals), further down the road, that will have an impact on battery production as well....though that's further down the road.

Also, I'm not convinced that folks know that the two of the 3 largest sources of lithium harvest it from the ocean. safely

It's always about cost. There are lithium deposits along the northern Nevada border as well. But the pro=EV people are not typically for mining in the U.S., they seem to find it evil. For example, we are in great need of helium, used in all kinds of things like medical instruments, and a huge deposit is in Minnesota. Unfortunately that's a progressive state.

 

[Hans Blaster]

It's always about cost. There are lithium deposits along the northern Nevada border as well. But the pro=EV people are not typically for mining in the U.S., they seem to find it evil. For example, we are in great need of helium, used in all kinds of things like medical instruments, and a huge deposit is in Minnesota. Unfortunately that's a progressive state.

Though it doesn't have anything to EVs, I'm not sure why the politics of Minnesota would have any impact in the extraction of Helium in an area filled with giant open pit iron mines.

 

[Valletta]

Though it doesn't have anything to EVs, I'm not sure why the politics of Minnesota would have any impact in the extraction of Helium in an area filled with giant open pit iron mines.

It's complicated, a combination of federal and state permits are needed. For example, for some mineral mining Obama stepped in and canceled leased, Trump reinstated the leases, and now there is Joe.

 

[Hans Blaster]

It's complicated, a combination of federal and state permits are needed. For example, for some mineral mining Obama stepped in and canceled leased, Trump reinstated the leases, and now there is Joe.

For helium extraction? In Minnesota?

 

[QvQ]

There is a specter of starvation involved in the truck scenario.
If you have it a truck delivered it.
And most of whatever was delivered was produced with diesel engines such as farm equipment.
There isn't any magic wand, solar or wind to replace coal and oil.
There isn't any mighty force that will make the grid necessary to deliver that energy.

Do the math
How many tons of food does your city consume every day?
All of that food is delivered by trucks
If all the truckers quit and took other jobs so no more trucks delivered food to your city
How long before the population of that city starved to death?

 

[Desk trauma]

There is a specter of starvation involved in the truck scenario.
If you have it a truck delivered it.
And most of whatever was delivered was produced with diesel engines such as farm equipment.
There isn't any magic wand, solar or wind to replace coal and oil.
There isn't any mighty force that will make the grid necessary to deliver that energy.

Yes it’s a pity the power generation capacity is a set in stone thing that we can’t modify or build more of, wait, I build industrial infrastructure for a living and have worked on multiple new power plants. Guess I’m a part of the mighty force?

Do the math
How many tons of food does your city consume every day?
All of that food is delivered by trucks
If all the truckers quit and took other jobs so no more trucks delivered food to your city
How long before the population of that city starved to death?

What would the truckers be eating in this hypothetical general strike? Are they going to starve to death in protest? Are they going to stop the people who step up to replace them?