Title: CHIEF ARTICLES OF FAITH - Article III - Original Sin

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Topic: Catholic Lutheran Dialogue - The Augsburg Confession and the Confutatio Pontificia - Where we were then, and where we are now. (First in a series of Article by Article discussions relating to these historic documents).

Title: CHIEF ARTICLES OF FAITH - Article III - The Son of God

1. MarkRohfrietsch will represent the Lutheran Position; Athanasias will represent the Catholic position.
2. Following the historic pattern, the opening posts of each discussion in this series will consist of the particular Articles themselves (The Augsburg Confession) , and the corresponding response as presented from the Confutatio (1530 Roman Confutation). Mark will then open the discussion with Athanasias responding.
3. Sincethis is a one-on-one discussion rather than a debate the number of rounds will be three each, however, by consent of both participants, if the discussion has run it's course, the discussion may be closed early; if it has not run it's course, the participants may agree to extend it. (Some articles such as the first historically resulted in little dispute, so the discussion may be quite short; others not so much)
4. The posts will be alternating.
5. Since both of us lead busy lives, we will not be setting a time between posts.
6. The maximum length for each post will be limited to the word count capacity of a single post.
7. All quotes and outside references are allowed. Please note that all quotes will fall under the 20% copyright rule. Also note that all quotes from the Lutheran Confessions and the Confutation will be taken from the unaltered Book of Concord; 1580 edition found here: Welcome to the Book of Concord.
8. Start date-Very soon.
9. In this discussion, the three Peanut Galleries; set up in General Theology , One Bread, One Body - Catholic, and Theologia Crucis - Lutherans will be updated and links to this debate will be added. Please note that the Christian Only rules apply in General Theology, and the Congregational rules apply in both the OBOB and TCL threads.

Peanut Gallery threads:

• General Theology: Formal Debate-Peanut Gallery-Catholic Lutheran Dialogue-Augsburg Confession...
• One Bread, One Body - Catholic: Formal Debate-Peanut Gallery-Catholic Lutheran Dialogue-Augsburg Confession...
• Theologia Crucis - Lutherans: Formal Debate-Peanut Gallery-Catholic Lutheran Dialogue-Augsburg Confession...

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Augsburg Confession - Article III: Of the Son of God.

1] Also they teach that the Word, that is, the Son of God, did assume the human nature in 2] the womb of the blessed Virgin Mary, so that there are two natures, the divine and the human, inseparably enjoined in one Person, one Christ, true God and true man, who was born of the Virgin Mary, truly suffered, was crucified, dead, and 3] buried, that He might reconcile the Father unto us, and be a sacrifice, not only for original guilt, but also for all actual sins of men.
4] He also descended into hell, and truly rose again the third day; afterward He ascended into heaven that He might sit on the right hand of the Father, and forever reign and have dominion over all creatures, and sanctify 5] them that believe in Him, by sending the Holy Ghost into their hearts, to rule, comfort, and quicken them, and to defend them against the devil and the power of sin.
6] The same Christ shall openly come again to judge the quick and the dead, etc., according to the Apostles' Creed.

Confutatio Pontificia - To Article III.

In the third article there is nothing to offend, since the entire Confession agrees with the Apostles' Creed and the right rule of faith -viz. the Son of God became incarnate, assumed human nature into the unity of his person, was born of the Virgin Mary, truly suffered was crucified, died, descended to hell, rose again on the third day, ascended to heaven, and sat down at the right hand of the Father.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

To the Glory of God, it seems herein lay only full agreement!

Athanasias, if you have anything to add; feel free and if you agree we can move on to Article IV.

 

[Athanasias]

To the Glory of God, it seems herein lay only full agreement!

Athanasias, if you have anything to add; feel free and if you agree we can move on to Article IV.

Amen! Yes studying the documents with you and having ecumenical conversations about it really helps me to see how much we truly do have in common and are united on which is far stronger then what divides us. This article is no exception. I agree with you and the confutio that we seem to agree on everything here. Amen!

I want to make just 2 side notes really quick because I know alot of Catholics and non Catholic alike who get confused about this when they say the Apostles Creed. So when I teach the Creed to teens or adults we break down each part and go over what that part means to Catholics historically and biblically. There are 2 things here I want to be specific about because they often confuse Catholics who ask me.

The first is that when Catholics say Christ descended into hell we do not mean he went to Gehenna or the place of the eternal damned and suffered damnation and delivered those who were damned after 3 days. That would be rejected by the Catholic Churches understanding. In the Tradition of the Church the term "hell" has a broader meaning. Rather we mean he went "Sheol"or "Hades" or another name for that is to the "limbo of the Fathers", also known as "Abrahams Bosom" which contained both righteous and unrighteous souls. It is this in which Christ went to despoil the devil of the righteous souls only that were trapped in Abrahams bosom/hell. We call this the harrowing of Hell and see it as a fullfillment of (Matt 12:29)

The Catechism of the Council of Trent states:

"Hell, then, here signifies those invisible dwelling places in which the souls are detained that have not yet been admitted to the happiness of heaven. In this sense the word is frequently used in Scripture."(Part 1 Art 5).


The Modern Catechism of the Catholic Church states it really well:

"Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, "hell" - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into "Abraham's bosom": "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham's bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell."482 Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.

634 "The gospel was preached even to the dead."484 The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfillment. This is the last phase of Jesus' messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ's redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.

635 Christ went down into the depths of death so that "the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live." Jesus, "the Author of life", by dying destroyed "him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and [delivered] all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage." Henceforth the risen Christ holds "the keys of Death and Hades", so that "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth."(CCC 633-635)

Secondly when we say He(Christ) was born of the Virgin Mary what we mean and believe is that she is ever Virgin perpetually and that Christ had a supernatural birth suggested about by the fathers of the Church such as St. Jerome who saw this prophesied typologically in (Ez 44:1-2).

It also implies to the Catholic Mind a host of other theologies like the cooperation and co-redemption of the blessed Mother. I will link the CCC on this to show you how Catholic think and teach when we say "Born of the Virgin Mary and became man" to give you some idea of the richness we think the creed contains when we profess it.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - "Conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary"

I hope this helps. Thanks my brother for this good topic as I think we agree on at least 99% here if not 100%. I look foreword to hearing from you soon.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Thanks for the great explanation. With regards to what you posted, especially from the CCC there is little there that conflicts with our teaching and that is the co-redemption of Mary. While not all Lutherans hold to the perpetual virginity of Mary (it's belief is not dogmatic for us) our Confessions do state clearly that the Church holds Mary as "ever virgin" and that her virginity remained "inviolate".

Certainly Christ's preaching to the souls in hell serves a three fold purpose; to proclaim fulfillment to those who trusted in God's promise to send a redeemer; to proclaim victory over sin, death and the power of the devil; and to demonstrate such by leaving hell and rising to proclaim that victory to the inhabitants of this world.

I'll leave this open for a time, so if there is anything that you would like to add, please feel free.

I always welcome your insight my friend!

 

[Athanasias]

Thanks for the great explanation. With regards to what you posted, especially from the CCC there is little there that conflicts with our teaching and that is the co-redemption of Mary. While not all Lutherans hold to the perpetual virginity of Mary (it's belief is not dogmatic for us) our Confessions do state clearly that the Church holds Mary as "ever virgin" and that her virginity remained "inviolate".

Certainly Christ's preaching to the souls in hell serves a three fold purpose; to proclaim fulfillment to those who trusted in God's promise to send a redeemer; to proclaim victory over sin, death and the power of the devil; and to demonstrate such by leaving hell and rising to proclaim that victory to the inhabitants of this world.

I'll leave this open for a time, so if there is anything that you would like to add, please feel free.

I always welcome your insight my friend!

Fantastic! I think there is so much agreement here that we can move on to the next article. I look forward to learning more about it. God bless you Mark!

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Fantastic! I think there is so much agreement here that we can move on to the next article. I look forward to learning more about it. God bless you Mark!

Thanks!

As soon as I get a chance, I will begin the preparations for Article IV. Be blessed dear friend!

Closing this one up...

Mark