There could be a heaven or a hell you don't know what you don't know.

FrumiousBandersnatch

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Can you explain your name, please? Just interested. If you want us to keep guessing, that's fine too.
Sorry for the delay responding, I missed this.

The name comes from the nonsense poem 'Jabberwocky' in Lewis Carroll's book 'Through the Looking-Glass, and What Alice Found There'.

Bandersnatches are terrible beasts, also mentioned elsewhere in his work, e.g. 'The Hunting of the Snark'. It seems likely (but uncertain) that the Jabberwock was a particularly irritable (i.e. a combination of 'fuming' and 'furious') Bandersnatch.

Why use the name? Ironic contrast.
 
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expos4ever

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Sorry for the delay responding, I missed this.

The name comes from the nonsense poem 'Jabberwocky' in Lewis Carroll's book 'Through the Looking-Glass, and What Alice Found There'.

Bandersnatches are terrible beasts, also mentioned elsewhere in his work, e.g. 'The Hunting of the Snark'. It seems likely (but uncertain) that the Jabberwock was a particularly irritable (i.e. a combination of 'fuming' and 'furious') Bandersnatch.

Why use the name? Ironic contrast.
Ok, thanks.
 
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SamuelTP1977

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I like to relay the following analogy to explain the issue:

Imagine that you are waking up in a bizarre culture where people take fairy creatures and comic books seriously. They debate about details of the comic books and vote on politics of the comic books and fairy tale fantasy as though these were a part of a reality.

You begin to notice the strangeness of such set up. You begin asking as to why they think any of it is real, and they begin attributing various things like lack of crime to the acts of Batman, and the miraculous stories of near-death situations that people experienced to the Flash and Superman. The blame the wrong things on their lives on Evil x-men, and they attribute the miraculous recoveries from sickness to the magical healing power of the Doctor Strange.

When you ask them as to why would they think that the stories in the comic books are real and not made up, they say things like... well there are real places and people described that we know existed in history, like presidents and celebrities, and cities. And that all of the comic books are based on collective eye-witness recollection with some help from professor X who joins minds together to form the best possible account of these events imaginable. Thus, they collectively think that you are insane for rejecting the "obvious" reality of their cultural mindset.

What would you point to in such case to convince these people that they are wrong about their belief system?


Essentially, that's what religion tends to do. It perpetuates a cultural mindset in which certain imaginary concepts that have no evidence in this world are treated as real, and thus the subjective interpretation of events that believers experience become "the modern day evidence" of the "acts of God". Someone got an unexpected check refund from IRS when they prayed for some financial help... miracle! Spontaneous recovery from cancer that falls in line with statistics of such cases... miracle! Someone beat a drug addiction... miracle!

Essentially, the religions, the way these are set up today are not very far from the bizarre scenario that I've described above. It's understandable as to why people would seriously consider certain propositions that otherwise should and would be utter nonsense fantasy... because politicians used religion as a tool to rule the masses, and thus spread and normalize the practice of religion in societies to the point where questioning religion became "odd" and "bizarre".

But, even in context of the thread... why would one think that any concept of "afterlife" should be of concern to anyone if the concept isn't falsifiable? People don't concern with them with idea like "before life"... which would be rather bizarre to a Christian. But, if "after life" is a possibility, wouldn't "before life" would be an equal possibility? Why not concern oneself with all of the possibilities then, no matter how bizarre these are?

We don't do that, because if there is no evidence for something being real... we don't treat it any different than non-existing. It really doesn't matter in scope of our reality.

This is an interesting analogy, one thing that is different though the Bible which is an amazing piece of work, is not considered a comic book by half the planet. A lot of strange events happened 2000 years ago that can't be so easily explained. Science can't explain everything either about creation like why is there a universe? The Bible and religion offers hope to people who are dying or hope to see a lost relative. So it is an amazing religion which offers a rich system of thought and hope. So hang in there and keep hope alive.

Definitely a good post of yours though, I do suggest though that we be careful when thinking we can prove something about this when we really can't. Try not to be so convinced, but more hopeful.
 
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Chriliman

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I feel the possibility of an afterlife is very real. Perhaps we are nothing more than sophisticated animals, but that isn't knowable. Think about the billions of people who believe in a higher power of some kind. Even Albert Einstein and Newton. Are all these people brain dead or is there something to it?

Metaphysics is not knowable that is some weird stuff once you start going down that road. Keep hope alive and try to be open minded is my best advice take it for what it is worth.

Sincerely,

Sam

If life after death is true, then this will be known after death.

If life after death is false, then this is impossible to know after death because you have to be alive to know things.

Given the above logical statements, it's more rational to believe life after death is true, rather than false because if one believes it's false, then they are believing something that is unknowable, which is irrational.

If one believes it's true, then they are believing something that is knowable in the future. Which is rational.

If one is uncertain either way, then that's fine, but the above shows that it's rational to believe life after death is true, and that it's irrational to believe it's false.

This is why so many rational people do believe in life after death and not many claim to believe it's false, they instead rationally claim to not be sure.
 
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Eudaimonist

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If life after death is true, then this will be known after death.

If life after death is false, then this is impossible to know after death because you have to be alive to know things.

Given the above logical statements, it's more rational to believe life after death is true, rather than false because if one believes it's false, then they are believing something that is unknowable, which is irrational.

That doesn't follow. The rational view is to withhold belief in life after death, since it can't be shown to exist through personal experience. Perhaps one shouldn't say that one knows that there is no life after death, but belief in life after death is completely illogical before one dies unless one can explain the mechanism by which it works, and theists have so far failed to do this.

If one believes it's true, then they are believing something that is knowable in the future. Which is rational.

That is not rational at all, since one wouldn't know that life after death is knowable in the future.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Chriliman

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That doesn't follow. The rational view is to withhold belief in life after death, since it can't be shown to exist through personal experience. Perhaps one shouldn't say that one knows that there is no life after death, but belief in life after death is completely illogical before one dies unless one can explain the mechanism by which it works, and theists have so far failed to do this.



That is not rational at all, since one wouldn't know that life after death is knowable in the future.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Do you agree that accepting something that is knowable is more rational than accepting something that is unknowable?
 
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Tinker Grey

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Do you agree that accepting something that is knowable is more rational than accepting something that is unknowable?
No.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Indeed, we are not accepting something that cannot be known; we are rejecting an assertion of something that is not known. When we know it, then we believe it.
 
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Chriliman

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Indeed, we are not accepting something that cannot be known; we are rejecting an assertion of something that is not known. When we know it, then we believe it.

Makes sense. One must have a personal experience of God before one can know God. However, this does not mean it's irrational to believe God exists based on truth claims about God.

Most know that an eternal God is just as possible as an eternal multiverse, it all comes down to what we actually experience in reality. When we experience, we know.
 
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Chriliman

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What if you only imagined that you have had such an experience? Then you don't really know God, do you?

What if you only imagine that you experience reality? Then you don't really know reality, do you?
 
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Eudaimonist

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What if you only imagine that you experience reality? Then you don't really know reality, do you?

You can't imagine that. The senses aren't imagination. The senses are quite a different thing altogether.

Unless you want to play stupid solipsistic philosophical games, it is clear that there are different kinds of experience, and the senses are a special sort.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Eudaimonist

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Most know that an eternal God is just as possible as an eternal multiverse

I don't know that. I don't see any reason why that should have to be the case.

it all comes down to what we actually experience in reality. When we experience, we know.

No, experience does not lead immediately to knowledge. One has to interpret experience with a valid epistemology, and then perhaps one will have knowledge. Seeing may be believing, but seeing is not (yet) knowledge.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Davian

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What if you only imagine that you experience reality? Then you don't really know reality, do you?
Solipsism arguments fail, in that if what we experience is consistent, persistent, observable, measurable, and behaves in a manner in which we can make reliable, independent predictions, for all intents and purposes it *is* reality.

Try answering my question this time.
Makes sense. One must have a personal experience of God before one can know God.
What if you only imagined that you have had such an experience? Then you don't really know God, do you?
 
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