The Triumphal Entry, Two "Thieves", and Barabbas

[Erik Nelson]

I'm not sure that's the best analogy for Jesus going to the temple twice... In any case, an analogy isn't reason.

not a comparison, more of a quote

2 Peter 2:20-22

 

[Yekcidmij]

not a comparison, more of a quote

2 Peter 2:20-22

2 Peter 2:20-22 doesn't have anything to do Jesus returning to the temple a second time to "cleanse" it. 2 Peter 2:20-22 is about false believers returning to their sinful ways....so, it doesn't look like very good analogy for Jesus returning to the temple. So more directly, your analogy makes Jesus out to be a dog returning to his vomit. Or, based on 2 Peter 2, he's a false believer returning to his sin. Not the best analogy, imo.

in any case, an analogy isn't the same as a reason.

 

[Erik Nelson]

2 Peter 2:20-22 doesn't have anything to do Jesus returning to the temple a second time to "cleanse" it. 2 Peter 2:20-22 is about false believers returning to their sinful ways....so, it doesn't look like very good analogy for Jesus returning to the temple. So more directly, your analogy makes Jesus out to be a dog returning to his vomit. Or, based on 2 Peter 2, he's a false believer returning to his sin. Not the best analogy, imo.

in any case, an analogy isn't the same as a reason.

you mean, the other way

Jesus cleansed the temple once

but the falsely pious TEMPLE returned to its sinful ways within two years (1st to 3rd Passovers)

if so Jesus cost the temple economy a year of income !

 

[Yekcidmij]

you mean, the other way

Jesus cleansed the temple once

but the falsely pious TEMPLE returned to its sinful ways within two years (1st to 3rd Passovers)

if so Jesus cost the temple economy a year of income !

I should clarify that I don't think the temple incident was a "cleansing;" I just use the term because it's the popularly used term. I think it was a prophetic sign-act of judgement on the temple, in much the same manner that Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel acted out their prophecies.

In any case, it looks to me like the temple episode in the beginning of John and the end of the synoptics are describing the same incident. So I think there was only one. It looks to me as if you think there were two incidents at the temple - one at the beginning of his career and one at the end. Though you may label them differently, for whatever reason, it seems you have to say he did the same activity in the temple twice. I just don't see a good reason to think this is the case and see reason to think there was one temple incident, that it was at the end of his career, and that therefore John didn't arrange his material chronologically.

 

[Erik Nelson]

I should clarify that I don't think the temple incident was a "cleansing;" I just use the term because it's the popularly used term. I think it was a prophetic sign-act of judgement on the temple, in much the same manner that Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel acted out their prophecies.

In any case, it looks to me like the temple episode in the beginning of John and the end of the synoptics are describing the same incident. So I think there was only one. It looks to me as if you think there were two incidents at the temple - one at the beginning of his career and one at the end. Though you may label them differently, for whatever reason, it seems you have to say he did the same activity in the temple twice. I just don't see a good reason to think this is the case and see reason to think there was one temple incident, that it was at the end of his career, and that therefore John didn't arrange his material chronologically.

John 2:20 gives a hard historical date

28 ad in agreement with Luke

if anything, JOHN remembered the correct chronology

 

[Yekcidmij]

John 2:20 gives a hard historical date

28 ad in agreement with Luke

if anything, JOHN remembered the correct chronology

If this is understood as 46 years from the 18th year of Herod the Great's reign, then John would put the temple episode in AD 27 or 28. I'm not sure what bearing this has on the discussion.

John 2:20 could also be read to say that the temple simply took 46 years to complete, which wouldn't necessarily indicate the date of Jesus' temple episode. In this case, the temple's construction was completed in 27/28 AD, but Jesus' incident in the temple could have been later. This would be consistent with Jesus' claim that he could do in 3 days what took Herod and his resources 46 years.

Or it could be read to say that the temple was constructed 46 years ago as well.

It should also be noted that Pilate wasn't made Prefect of Judea until AD 26.

 

[Erik Nelson]

If this is understood as 46 years from the 18th year of Herod the Great's reign, then John would put the temple episode in AD 27 or 28. I'm not sure what bearing this has on the discussion.

John 2:20 could also be read to say that the temple simply took 46 years to complete, which wouldn't necessarily indicate the date of Jesus' temple episode. In this case, the temple's construction was completed in 27/28 AD, but Jesus' incident in the temple could have been later. This would be consistent with Jesus' claim that he could do in 3 days what took Herod and his resources 46 years.

Or it could be read to say that the temple was constructed 46 years ago as well.

It should also be noted that Pilate wasn't made Prefect of Judea until AD 26.

NIV First-Century Study Bible

2:20 Forty-six years. Herod the Great started renovating the temple in 20 bc, which puts this scene in the late 20s ad. The work was actually completed by Herod’s grandson Agrippa II just before the temple was destroyed by the Romans in ad 70.

 

[Yekcidmij]

NIV First-Century Study Bible

2:20 Forty-six years. Herod the Great started renovating the temple in 20 bc, which puts this scene in the late 20s ad. The work was actually completed by Herod’s grandson Agrippa II just before the temple was destroyed by the Romans in ad 70.

I'm not sure what this quote from the NIV First-Century Study Bible is supposed to prove.

 

[Erik Nelson]

Jesus whipped the sellers, and at the crucifixion was scourged... As revenge?

John alludes to the same psalm 69 in John 15, 19 at the third Passover... Not to mention Ps 69:21 on the cross... One temple cleaning event at the end of Jesus' earthy ministry may make sense



Jesus at the Temple

John 2:14-17 [28 ad]
In the temple courts he found people selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple courts, both sheep and cattle [Ps 69:31]; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables [Ps 69:22]. To those who sold doves he said, “Get these out of here! Stop turning my Father’s house into a market!” His disciples remembered that it is written: “Zeal for your house will consume me.” [Ps 69:9]

Matthew 21:12-13
Jesus entered the temple courts and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. “It is written,” he said to them, “‘My house will be called a house of prayer,’[Isaiah 56:7] but you are making it ‘a den of robbers.’[Jer. 7:11]”

Mark 11:15-17
On reaching Jerusalem, Jesus entered the temple courts and began driving out those who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves, and would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts. And as he taught them, he said, “Is it not written: ‘My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations’[Isaiah 56:7]? But you have made it ‘a den of robbers.’[Jer. 7:11]”

Luke 19:45-46
When Jesus entered the temple courts, he began to drive out those who were selling. “It is written,” he said to them, “‘My house will be a house of prayer’ [Isaiah 56:7]; but you have made it ‘a den of robbers.’ [Jer. 7:11]”

 

[Erik Nelson]

I'm not sure what this quote from the NIV First-Century Study Bible is supposed to prove.

construction continued until 70ad

 

[Yekcidmij]

construction continued until 70ad

Maybe I should rephrase then. Im not sure how that quote from the NIV First Century Study Bible proves that.