The Ten vs the 603

[Icyspark]

A basic understanding of some of the differences between the Ten Commandments and all the other requirements, statutes and judgments (the 603) is needed in order to understand what was done away with at the cross.

---

1A. The Ten Commandments were spoken by God.
Exodus 20:1
"Then God spoke all these words, saying . . . " ​

​

Exodus 20:22
"GOD said to Moses, "Give this Message to the People of Israel: "You've experienced firsthand how I spoke with you from Heaven."​

This is the only instance in the Pentateuch in which God directly proclaims a law to His people without the mediation of Moses. This to me says quite a lot about this particular law. How many times throughout the Bible does God speak audibly so that more than one person can hear Him? I can only thing of a couple of times. He spoke at the baptism of His son, Jesus. He also spoke at the transfiguration of Jesus.

Deuteronomy 4:12-13
“Then the LORD spoke to you out of the fire. You heard the sound of words but saw no form; there was only a voice. He declared to you his covenant, the Ten Commandments, which He commanded you to follow and then wrote them on two stone tablets.”​

1B. Statutes spoken by Moses

Exodus 24:3
“So Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD and all the judgments. And all the people answered with one voice and said, ‘All the words which the LORD has said we will do.’"​

---

2A. Ten Commandments engraved on tablets of stone by God Himself

Exodus 31:18
“And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.”​

What significance might there be to the fact that God Himself wrote the Ten Commandments. Not only once did He write them, but twice (see Deuteronomy 10:1-4). Why wouldn’t God entrust Moses to write them down either time?

Exodus 34:28
"And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant--the Ten Commandments."​

Here we see that the Ten Commandments are indeed a covenant, but how many commandments are in this particular covenant?

Deuteronomy 5:22
"These words the LORD spoke to all your assembly, in the mountain from the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and He added no more. And He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to [Moses]."​

Obviously if you lump all the requirements, statutes and laws together you would have more than ten. The number ten clearly limits the total. And if God ADDED NO MORE, how can man? The Ten Commandments are also a complete covenant. God did not say “part of a covenant.” He also did not say they were an installment. They are complete.

2B. Statutes written by Moses in a book (called the BOOK of the COVENANT).

Exodus 24:4, 7
“And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD. And he rose early in the morning, and built an altar at the foot of the mountain, and twelve pillars according to the twelve tribes of Israel. Then he took the BOOK OF THE COVENANT and read in the hearing of the people. And they said, ‘All that the LORD has said we will do, and be obedient.’"​

Is there a covenant mentioned here? Here also is a promise, albeit a faulty one--by the people.

Deuteronomy 31:24
"So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished..."​

---

3A. The Ten Commandments were placed inside the ark of the covenant.

Deuteronomy 10:5
“Then I turned and came down from the mountain, and PUT THE TABLETS IN THE ARK which I had made; and there they are, just as the LORD commanded me.”​

3B. Statutes deposited by the Levites “by the side of the ark.” A.R.V.

Deuteronomy 31:26
“Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God. There it will remain as a witness against you.”​

Why did Moses have to place the BOOK OF THE COVENANT "beside the ark of the covenant"? Wasn't there enough room to put it in with the TEN commandments? And if God gives us so many clues as to the enduring nature of the ten commandments, shouldn't we take heed? If you were going to make a distinction between two sets of laws how would you propose to do any better than what God did?

Now, here’s the good part!

Colossians 2:14, 16-17
"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."​

Wow! Did you get that? The reason why we no longer observe the Passover, Jewish feasts and offer animal sacrifices is because all of these were a part of the handwriting of ordinances which were a shadow pointing forward to the cross. Once Jesus died, offering an animal sacrifice would be denying His sacrifice. The Sabbath of the Ten Commandments cannot be included in this text for many reasons, but mainly because it was a memorial of something that took place in the past (Exodus 20:11)--it wasn’t pointing forward to the cross. The Sabbath is a memorial of God’s creative power. His creative act is why He is deserving of our worship and praise (see Revelation 14:7)! The Sabbath is the day God rested from His creating and then He blessed, sanctified and made the seventh day holy.

Now if the Ten Commandments are still in existence the following texts will make more sense.

Romans 7:7, 12-13
“What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, ‘You shall not covet.’ Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good... Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.​

What law is being quoted from here? The ten commandments right? My Bible’s center column chain reference throws me back to Exodus 20:17 and Deuteronomy 5:21, the Ten Commandments. Is this saying that only the tenth command of the Ten Commandments is holy, just and good? Obviously not!

James 2:9-12
“But if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, ’do not commit adultery,’ also said, ’do not murder.’ Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.”​

The Ten Commandments are not a method of salvation. They are our mirror whereby we see that we are sinners in need of a Savior. If there is no law, then there is no sin. If there is no sin, then there is no need of a Savior.

At this point I’d just like to say I appreciate current dilemma of the critics. Most churches that lay hold on the name Jesus Christ are not teaching that the Sabbath of the Ten Commandments is of any significance. But I ask you, is the majority always right? If so, then the church organization with the most members should be the one that should have all the truth. The Catholic church has the largest membership, but it is also what spawned the name Protestant. The Catholic church was not following the Bible and the Bible only (sola scriptura) and for this reason great reformers such as John Wycliffe, Martin Luther, John Huss, and many others, suffered incredible persecution to bring the truth of the Bible to light. The Catholic church lays claim to the fact that it is the one responsible for changing the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. It also significantly altered the Ten Commandments, dropping out the command not to have graven images and splitting in two one of the other nine in order to maintain the number ten. If indeed the commandments were changed by the Catholic church, could it be that traditions of man have been kept, even in many Protestant denominations? This would have some very negative repercussions because in Mark 7:7-9 Jesus says, “And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do." Furthermore He said, "All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. For Moses said, ‘honor your father and your mother ...’”

Again please note that Christ refers to a command from the Decalogue. What does He say of the worship that is done by those who lay aside the commandment of God? He says “in vain do they worship me” (see also Acts 5:29 and Colossians 2:8). It doesn’t matter whether you are sincere in your belief. You can be sincerely wrong.

The Sabbath is a special test command placed in the heart of the Ten. It is for us the same as the tree of knowledge of good and evil was for Adam and Eve. It’s not a difficult command, and in fact it was made for our benefit. Mark 2:27 says “the Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath:” There is a spiritual benefit to be attained by keeping the Bible Sabbath.

The Sabbath is holy. What does it mean for something to be “holy”? When Moses approached the burning bush, God spoke to him and told him to remove his sandals. Why? Because the place where he was standing was holy ground. What made the ground holy? It was God’s presence in the ground that made it holy, right? In a similar way, that we as finite beings may not fully understand, the seventh day Sabbath is imbued with the presence of God! There is a special blessing to be attained by worshipping on the day which God rested, the day He blessed and made holy. No other day can lay hold of these special claims because God never applied these characteristics to any other day.

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

JUMP STATION​

Ten Reasons I'm a Sabbatarian	Notice that none of the critics respond to the ten reasons
Creation Sabbath Origin	For those who insist the Sabbath is only for the Jews
Spiritual vs Physical	A look at how the critics want to spiritualize rest but not food or drink
The New Covenant	Most critics conflate the law with being the agreement/covenant.
Works Relation to Salvation	Works reveal if your faith is real

 

[daq]

A basic understanding of some of the differences between the Ten Commandments and all the other requirements, statutes and judgments (the 603) is needed in order to understand what was done away with at the cross.

---

1A. The Ten Commandments were spoken by God.​

Exodus 20:1​

"Then God spoke all these words, saying . . . " ​

​

Exodus 20:22​

"GOD said to Moses, "Give this Message to the People of Israel: "You've experienced firsthand how I spoke with you from Heaven."​

This is the only instance in the Pentateuch in which God directly proclaims a law to His people without the mediation of Moses.

That final statement may not actually be true but of course, like almost everything, it is debatable. Those to whom the Logos-Word of Elohim has come are called elohim, (Jhn 10:34-36, Exo 22:8-9, Psa 82:6).

Exodus 19:24 -> Exodus 20:1 KJV
24 And the LORD said unto him, Away, get thee down, and thou shalt come up, thou, and Aaron with thee: but let not the priests and the people break through to come up unto the LORD, lest he break forth upon them.
25 So Moses went down unto the people, and spake unto them.
01 And God spake all these words, saying,

Should that be a full stop, (period), at the end of Exodus 19:25?
Or should it perhaps rather be a colon or semicolon?

 

[HIM]

That final statement may not actually be true but of course, like almost everything, it is debatable. Those to whom the Logos-Word of Elohim has come are called elohim, (Jhn 10:34-36, Exo 22:8-9, Psa 82:6).

That's very true, amen! Jesus said of Himself, He (God) doeth the work and greater works shall we do because He goeth unto the Father and then will come unto us. Jesus in us, God in Jesus, that we be made perfect in and through the One in us that the world might believe.

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Exodus 19:24 -> Exodus 20:1 KJV
24 And the LORD said unto him, Away, get thee down, and thou shalt come up, thou, and Aaron with thee: but let not the priests and the people break through to come up unto the LORD, lest he break forth upon them.
25 So Moses went down unto the people, and spake unto them.
01 And God spake all these words, saying,

Should that be a full stop, (period), at the end of Exodus 19:25?
Or should it perhaps rather be a colon or semicolon?

Implying that it was Moses that spake and not God doesn't fit the context of the rest of the passage

 

[Icyspark]

That final statement may not actually be true but of course, like almost everything, it is debatable. Those to whom the Logos-Word of Elohim has come are called elohim, (Jhn 10:34-36, Exo 22:8-9, Psa 82:6).

Exodus 19:24 -> Exodus 20:1 KJV
24 And the LORD said unto him, Away, get thee down, and thou shalt come up, thou, and Aaron with thee: but let not the priests and the people break through to come up unto the LORD, lest he break forth upon them.
25 So Moses went down unto the people, and spake unto them.
01 And God spake all these words, saying,

Should that be a full stop, (period), at the end of Exodus 19:25?
Or should it perhaps rather be a colon or semicolon?

Hi daq,

Um ... I don't really see any room for debate. The text makes it pretty clear who is God:

Exodus 20:22​

"GOD said to Moses, "Give this Message to the People of Israel: "You've experienced firsthand how I spoke with you from Heaven."​

It is apparent that Moses isn't speaking to himself and that he isn't saying he spoke "to the People of Israel ... from Heaven."

Additionally, what do the people say after hearing the Ten Commandments spoken to them?

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[HIM]

The Ten Commandments are not a method of salvation. They are our mirror whereby we see that we are sinners in need of a Savior. If there is no law, then there is no sin. If there is no sin, then there is no need of a Savior.

Hi Icyspark Happy Sabbath! So you think the ten commandments are the mirror mentioned in chapter 1 and that which is called the law of liberty?


James starts the chapter 1 saying have faith and do not doubt. Then in respect to being tempted by our own lusts James through the Spirit says, we are to receive the engrafted word that begot us. Be doers of the word that has become part of us, having been engrafted through being born of It. Because if we are a hearer of the engrafted word and not a doer then we are as if we behold this new person that is begotten of the Word of truth in a mirror and walk away forgetting what we are, this first fruit of His creation begotten by the word of truth and thereby having the engrafted Word which is able to save our souls. But whosoever looks into this that which they become with the engrafted word, the perfect law having been engrafted in us, that law of freedom because it is now part of us. And is a doer of this work he is blessed indeed.

The law of liberty is the fact the word is engrafted and made part of us. The fact that it has been made part of us has given us liberty.
It actually reads in the Greek in chapter one Into Law perfect that of the freedom "εἰς Into νόμον Law τέλειον Perfect, τὸν That τῆς of the ἐλευθερίας Freedom," Not Law of Liberty.

We know that we are according to James to have a heart for the widow and fatherless and not have respect of persons due to status, It also says about fulfilling the Royal Law and alludes to the Ten Commandments and having mercy. All this is from the word, the book of the law and the Tablets. Not just the Ten. And in the mentioning these, we are expected to be living the example because we will be judged by this that has been engrafted, made part of us, which is now The Law Perfect that of freedom because it has been made part of us.

Our heart is changed we are the first fruit. A new creature, All things are new and of God. And because it is now part of us that is what we should see when we look in a mirror. So don't forget what manner of man we are now. That which is begotten of the word of truth, A first fruit of his and be a doer of this work, not a hearer only deceiving our own selves.

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Jas 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Jas 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
Jas 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law, that of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

 

[daq]

Hi daq,

Um ... I don't really see any room for debate. The text makes it pretty clear who is God:

Exodus 20:22​

"GOD said to Moses, "Give this Message to the People of Israel: "You've experienced firsthand how I spoke with you from Heaven."​

It is apparent that Moses isn't speaking to himself and that he isn't saying he spoke "to the People of Israel ... from Heaven."

Additionally, what do the people say after hearing the Ten Commandments spoken to them?

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Elohim does not speak through his Priests, Mediators, and Messengers?
And what about agency?

I pray this helps too.

 

[Leaf473]

A basic understanding of some of the differences between the Ten Commandments and all the other requirements, statutes and judgments (the 603) is needed in order to understand what was done away with at the cross.

---

1A. The Ten Commandments were spoken by God.​

Exodus 20:1​

"Then God spoke all these words, saying . . . " ​

​

Exodus 20:22​

"GOD said to Moses, "Give this Message to the People of Israel: "You've experienced firsthand how I spoke with you from Heaven."​

This is the only instance in the Pentateuch in which God directly proclaims a law to His people without the mediation of Moses. This to me says quite a lot about this particular law. How many times throughout the Bible does God speak audibly so that more than one person can hear Him? I can only thing of a couple of times. He spoke at the baptism of His son, Jesus. He also spoke at the transfiguration of Jesus.

Deuteronomy 4:12-13 ​

“Then the LORD spoke to you out of the fire. You heard the sound of words but saw no form; there was only a voice. He declared to you his covenant, the Ten Commandments, which He commanded you to follow and then wrote them on two stone tablets.”​

1B. Statutes spoken by Moses

Exodus 24:3​

“So Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD and all the judgments. And all the people answered with one voice and said, ‘All the words which the LORD has said we will do.’"​

---

2A. Ten Commandments engraved on tablets of stone by God Himself

Exodus 31:18​

“And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.”​

What significance might there be to the fact that God Himself wrote the Ten Commandments. Not only once did He write them, but twice (see Deuteronomy 10:1-4). Why wouldn’t God entrust Moses to write them down either time?

Exodus 34:28​

"And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant--the Ten Commandments."​

Here we see that the Ten Commandments are indeed a covenant, but how many commandments are in this particular covenant?

Deuteronomy 5:22​

"These words the LORD spoke to all your assembly, in the mountain from the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and He added no more. And He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to [Moses]."​

Obviously if you lump all the requirements, statutes and laws together you would have more than ten. The number ten clearly limits the total. And if God ADDED NO MORE, how can man? The Ten Commandments are also a complete covenant. God did not say “part of a covenant.” He also did not say they were an installment. They are complete.

2B. Statutes written by Moses in a book (called the BOOK of the COVENANT).

Exodus 24:4, 7​

“And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD. And he rose early in the morning, and built an altar at the foot of the mountain, and twelve pillars according to the twelve tribes of Israel. Then he took the BOOK OF THE COVENANT and read in the hearing of the people. And they said, ‘All that the LORD has said we will do, and be obedient.’"​

Is there a covenant mentioned here? Here also is a promise, albeit a faulty one--by the people.

Deuteronomy 31:24​

"So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished..."​

---

3A. The Ten Commandments were placed inside the ark of the covenant.

Deuteronomy 10:5​

“Then I turned and came down from the mountain, and PUT THE TABLETS IN THE ARK which I had made; and there they are, just as the LORD commanded me.”​

3B. Statutes deposited by the Levites “by the side of the ark.” A.R.V.

Deuteronomy 31:26​

“Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God. There it will remain as a witness against you.”​

Why did Moses have to place the BOOK OF THE COVENANT "beside the ark of the covenant"? Wasn't there enough room to put it in with the TEN commandments? And if God gives us so many clues as to the enduring nature of the ten commandments, shouldn't we take heed? If you were going to make a distinction between two sets of laws how would you propose to do any better than what God did?

Now, here’s the good part!

Colossians 2:14, 16-17​

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."​

Wow! Did you get that? The reason why we no longer observe the Passover, Jewish feasts and offer animal sacrifices is because all of these were a part of the handwriting of ordinances which were a shadow pointing forward to the cross. Once Jesus died, offering an animal sacrifice would be denying His sacrifice. The Sabbath of the Ten Commandments cannot be included in this text for many reasons, but mainly because it was a memorial of something that took place in the past (Exodus 20:11)--it wasn’t pointing forward to the cross. The Sabbath is a memorial of God’s creative power. His creative act is why He is deserving of our worship and praise (see Revelation 14:7)! The Sabbath is the day God rested from His creating and then He blessed, sanctified and made the seventh day holy.

Now if the Ten Commandments are still in existence the following texts will make more sense.

Romans 7:7, 12-13​

“What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, ‘You shall not covet.’ Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good... Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.​

What law is being quoted from here? The ten commandments right? My Bible’s center column chain reference throws me back to Exodus 20:17 and Deuteronomy 5:21, the Ten Commandments. Is this saying that only the tenth command of the Ten Commandments is holy, just and good? Obviously not!

James 2:9-12​

“But if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, ’do not commit adultery,’ also said, ’do not murder.’ Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.”​

The Ten Commandments are not a method of salvation. They are our mirror whereby we see that we are sinners in need of a Savior. If there is no law, then there is no sin. If there is no sin, then there is no need of a Savior.

At this point I’d just like to say I appreciate current dilemma of the critics. Most churches that lay hold on the name Jesus Christ are not teaching that the Sabbath of the Ten Commandments is of any significance. But I ask you, is the majority always right? If so, then the church organization with the most members should be the one that should have all the truth. The Catholic church has the largest membership, but it is also what spawned the name Protestant. The Catholic church was not following the Bible and the Bible only (sola scriptura) and for this reason great reformers such as John Wycliffe, Martin Luther, John Huss, and many others, suffered incredible persecution to bring the truth of the Bible to light. The Catholic church lays claim to the fact that it is the one responsible for changing the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. It also significantly altered the Ten Commandments, dropping out the command not to have graven images and splitting in two one of the other nine in order to maintain the number ten. If indeed the commandments were changed by the Catholic church, could it be that traditions of man have been kept, even in many Protestant denominations? This would have some very negative repercussions because in Mark 7:7-9 Jesus says, “And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do." Furthermore He said, "All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. For Moses said, ‘honor your father and your mother ...’”

Again please note that Christ refers to a command from the Decalogue. What does He say of the worship that is done by those who lay aside the commandment of God? He says “in vain do they worship me” (see also Acts 5:29 and Colossians 2:8). It doesn’t matter whether you are sincere in your belief. You can be sincerely wrong.

The Sabbath is a special test command placed in the heart of the Ten. It is for us the same as the tree of knowledge of good and evil was for Adam and Eve. It’s not a difficult command, and in fact it was made for our benefit. Mark 2:27 says “the Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath:” There is a spiritual benefit to be attained by keeping the Bible Sabbath.

The Sabbath is holy. What does it mean for something to be “holy”? When Moses approached the burning bush, God spoke to him and told him to remove his sandals. Why? Because the place where he was standing was holy ground. What made the ground holy? It was God’s presence in the ground that made it holy, right? In a similar way, that we as finite beings may not fully understand, the seventh day Sabbath is imbued with the presence of God! There is a special blessing to be attained by worshipping on the day which God rested, the day He blessed and made holy. No other day can lay hold of these special claims because God never applied these characteristics to any other day.

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

JUMP STATION​

Ten Reasons I'm a Sabbatarian	Notice that none of the critics respond to the ten reasons
Creation Sabbath Origin	For those who insist the Sabbath is only for the Jews
Spiritual vs Physical	A look at how the critics want to spiritualize rest but not food or drink
The New Covenant	Most critics conflate the law with being the agreement/covenant.
Works Relation to Salvation	Works reveal if your faith is real

hi,cy

Thanks for posting that Let's follow it out.

We now have the entire law divided into two sets:
The Ten Commandments
and
Every other law.

Which set is in effect for us today?

 

[daq]

hi,cy

Thanks for posting that Let's follow it out.

We now have the entire law divided into two sets:
The Ten Commandments
and
Every other law.

Which set is in effect for us today?

Though I do not intend to press the issue I brought up, what you ask is the main reason I brought it up: for the OP seems to be using the opening argument to say that the Ten are therefore the only part of the Torah that is still relevant, (or whatever other way the OP would say that). Most everything else in the Torah ultimately derives from the Ten, in one way or another: the Torah is not divided up the way SDA's often portray it. Moreover there is Torah-instruction in the book of Genesis, somewhat hidden, which informs the observant reader and student of the Word about things which are taught in the Torah itself.

 

[Icyspark]

Elohim does not speak through his Priests, Mediators, and Messengers?
And what about agency?

I pray this helps too.

Hi daq,

You're not responding to the texts which actually addresses your issue. I can't help you if you're ignoring what Scripture actually says.

Certainly there are recorded instances where God speaks through other beings. That doesn't help your premise here though since the context is clear that it isn't Moses that the people heard from heaven.

Exodus 20:22​

"GOD said to Moses, "Give this Message to the People of Israel: "You've experienced firsthand how I spoke with you from Heaven."​

If you took a moment to address the question I asked about what the people said after hearing the Ten Commandments spoken to them then I think you wouldn't be continuing down this path.

Exodus 20:18-20​

When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear. They stayed at a distance and said to Moses, “Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die.”​

​

Moses said to the people, “Do not be afraid. God has come to test you, so that the fear of God will be with you to keep you from sinning.”​

Could you tell me why the people were afraid to have Moses speak to them thinking they were going to die?

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[Icyspark]

hi,cy

Thanks for posting that Let's follow it out.

We now have the entire law divided into two sets:
The Ten Commandments
and
Every other law.

Which set is in effect for us today?

Hi Leaf473,

If you'll examine the opening post again you'll see that the New Testament authors frequently are appealing to one or more of the Ten Commandments. When they do this do you believe that they are just randomly reaffirming one commandment at a time? Or rather, when they appeal to one commandment are they affirming the entire unit of Ten?

Paul says he wouldn't have known what sin was if the law had not said, "You shall not covet."

Romans 7:7​

What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”​

1. Do you agree that Paul is quoting from the Ten Commandment covenant?
2. Do you agree that Paul is not affirming that the only commandment that identifies sin is the one against coveting?
3. Do you agree that when Paul affirms one of the Ten that he is affirming the entire set?
4. Do you agree with Paul that if there is no law then there is no sin?
5. Do you agree that the law is subdivided?
6. Do you agree that when God gave the Ten Commandment covenant He did so in a manner which was different from the other 603?
7. Do you agree that the Ten Commandments were known prior to Mount Sinai? (refer to point 4)
8. Do you agree that you are still a sinner? (see point 4)

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[daq]

Hi daq,

You're not responding to the texts which actually addresses your issue. I can't help you if you're ignoring what Scripture actually says.

Certainly there are recorded instances where God speaks through other beings. That doesn't help your premise here though since the context is clear that it isn't Moses that the people heard from heaven.

Exodus 20:22​

"GOD said to Moses, "Give this Message to the People of Israel: "You've experienced firsthand how I spoke with you from Heaven."​

Perhaps I simply do not understand "the heavens" the way you do?
It seems that your view of Elohim is that he is up in the sky somewhere.

If you took a moment to address the question I asked about what the people said after hearing the Ten Commandments spoken to them then I think you wouldn't be continuing down this path.

Exodus 20:18-20​

When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear. They stayed at a distance and said to Moses, “Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die.”​

​

Moses said to the people, “Do not be afraid. God has come to test you, so that the fear of God will be with you to keep you from sinning.”​

Does that necessarily mean that Elohim was not speaking through Mosheh? Moreover, in Exodus 20:19, the Hebrew text actually says, ...but let not speak Imannu-Elohim, lest we die.

Could you tell me why the people were afraid to have Moses speak to them thinking they were going to die?

Because of the awesome power flowing through Mosheh when Elohim spoke through his Mediator. His voice likely thundered and reverberated through their entire being, to the point that they indeed freaked out, and truly thought they were going to die. We now have a similar technology even today, (search "voice to skull technology" in your favorite search engine). They were not afraid to have Mosheh speak to them, and rather wanted it to be like that again where only Mosheh spoke to them, for they were terrified when Elohim spoke through Mosheh to them. This is not a difficult concept to grasp unless one has a bias to uphold.

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Me too.

 

[daq]

A basic understanding of some of the differences between the Ten Commandments and all the other requirements, statutes and judgments (the 603) is needed in order to understand what was done away with at the cross.

The only things "done away with at the cross" were certain handwritten dogmas and decrees of the Sanhedrin, Chief Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes, which were dogmas and proclamations based on natural-minded faulty interpretations of the Torah.

The Torah is spiritual, (Rom 7:14a), and the only real division I find concerning the Torah, according to Paul, is the difference between the things which concern that which is of above, and the things which concern that which is of below.

The things of above are allegorically summarized in the name Horeb, and those things concern Torah of the mind and Torah of Elohim, (Rom 7:25). The things of below are allegorically summarized in the name Sinai, and those things concern the Torah-Instruction concerning sin and death, (Rom 7:25), that is, how to put to death sin, and how to mortify or put to death "the deeds of the body", (Rom 8:13), and how to mortify or put to death "your members which are upon the earth", (Col 3:5), which surely means things of below. Paul says that he serves both in Romans 7:25.

 

[Leaf473]

Hi Leaf473,

If you'll examine the opening post again you'll see that the New Testament authors frequently are appealing to one or more of the Ten Commandments. When they do this do you believe that they are just randomly reaffirming one commandment at a time?

Or rather, when they appeal to one commandment are they affirming the entire unit of Ten?

I believe there are more than the two possibilities listed: a third possibility is that they are affirming the entire law.

Paul says he wouldn't have known what sin was if the law had not said, "You shall not covet."

Romans 7:7​

What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”​

1. Do you agree that Paul is quoting from the Ten Commandment covenant?

Yes.

1. Do you agree that Paul is not affirming that the only commandment that identifies sin is the one against coveting?

Yes.

1. Do you agree that when Paul affirms one of the Ten that he is affirming the entire set?

I believe he is affirming the entire law.

1. Do you agree with Paul that if there is no law then there is no sin?

Yes. However, law doesn't have to be written.

1. Do you agree that the law is subdivided?

I agree that it can be. We can say that there are those laws that have the word "Levite" in them and those that don't.

1. Do you agree that when God gave the Ten Commandment covenant He did so in a manner which was different from the other 603?

Yes. However, he also gave the laws in Leviticus in a different fashion compared to the laws in Exodus or Deuteronomy. The laws in Leviticus were given at the door of the tent of meeting.

1. Do you agree that the Ten Commandments were known prior to Mount Sinai? (refer to point 4)

Yes. Other laws were also known. For example, levitate marriage was also known.

1. Do you agree that you are still a sinner? (see point 4)

I still miss the mark, Yes. However, I am deemed righteous.

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Thanks for your post. Regarding the question I asked,

We now have the entire law divided into two sets:
The Ten Commandments
and
Every other law.

Which set is in effect for us today?

What is your answer? From your post, I get the sense that it's just the 10. Is that correct?
________________
Edit: fixed a typo

 

[HIM]

Does that necessarily mean that Elohim was not speaking through Mosheh? Moreover, in Exodus 20:19, the Hebrew text actually says, .... Imannu-Elohim, .

And what is it you think that means?

 

[daq]

And what is it you think that means?

You'll need to clarify since you snipped out part of what I placed in italics.

 

[Bob S]

A basic understanding of some of the differences between the Ten Commandments and all the other requirements, statutes and judgments (the 603) is needed in order to understand what was done away with at the cross.

---

1A. The Ten Commandments were spoken by God.​

Exodus 20:1​

"Then God spoke all these words, saying . . . " ​

​

Exodus 20:22​

"GOD said to Moses, "Give this Message to the People of Israel: "You've experienced firsthand how I spoke with you from Heaven."​

This is the only instance in the Pentateuch in which God directly proclaims a law to His people without the mediation of Moses. This to me says quite a lot about this particular law. How many times throughout the Bible does God speak audibly so that more than one person can hear Him? I can only thing of a couple of times. He spoke at the baptism of His son, Jesus. He also spoke at the transfiguration of Jesus.

Deuteronomy 4:12-13 ​

“Then the LORD spoke to you out of the fire. You heard the sound of words but saw no form; there was only a voice. He declared to you his covenant, the Ten Commandments, which He commanded you to follow and then wrote them on two stone tablets.”​

1B. Statutes spoken by Moses

Exodus 24:3​

“So Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD and all the judgments. And all the people answered with one voice and said, ‘All the words which the LORD has said we will do.’"​

---

2A. Ten Commandments engraved on tablets of stone by God Himself

Exodus 31:18​

“And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.”​

What significance might there be to the fact that God Himself wrote the Ten Commandments. Not only once did He write them, but twice (see Deuteronomy 10:1-4). Why wouldn’t God entrust Moses to write them down either time?

Exodus 34:28​

"And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant--the Ten Commandments."​

Here we see that the Ten Commandments are indeed a covenant, but how many commandments are in this particular covenant?

Deuteronomy 5:22​

"These words the LORD spoke to all your assembly, in the mountain from the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and He added no more. And He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to [Moses]."​

Obviously if you lump all the requirements, statutes and laws together you would have more than ten. The number ten clearly limits the total. And if God ADDED NO MORE, how can man? The Ten Commandments are also a complete covenant. God did not say “part of a covenant.” He also did not say they were an installment. They are complete.

2B. Statutes written by Moses in a book (called the BOOK of the COVENANT).

Exodus 24:4, 7​

“And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD. And he rose early in the morning, and built an altar at the foot of the mountain, and twelve pillars according to the twelve tribes of Israel. Then he took the BOOK OF THE COVENANT and read in the hearing of the people. And they said, ‘All that the LORD has said we will do, and be obedient.’"​

Is there a covenant mentioned here? Here also is a promise, albeit a faulty one--by the people.

Deuteronomy 31:24​

"So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished..."​

---

3A. The Ten Commandments were placed inside the ark of the covenant.

Deuteronomy 10:5​

“Then I turned and came down from the mountain, and PUT THE TABLETS IN THE ARK which I had made; and there they are, just as the LORD commanded me.”​

3B. Statutes deposited by the Levites “by the side of the ark.” A.R.V.

Deuteronomy 31:26​

“Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God. There it will remain as a witness against you.”​

Why did Moses have to place the BOOK OF THE COVENANT "beside the ark of the covenant"? Wasn't there enough room to put it in with the TEN commandments? And if God gives us so many clues as to the enduring nature of the ten commandments, shouldn't we take heed? If you were going to make a distinction between two sets of laws how would you propose to do any better than what God did?

Now, here’s the good part!

Colossians 2:14, 16-17​

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."​

Wow! Did you get that? The reason why we no longer observe the Passover, Jewish feasts and offer animal sacrifices is because all of these were a part of the handwriting of ordinances which were a shadow pointing forward to the cross. Once Jesus died, offering an animal sacrifice would be denying His sacrifice. The Sabbath of the Ten Commandments cannot be included in this text for many reasons, but mainly because it was a memorial of something that took place in the past (Exodus 20:11)--it wasn’t pointing forward to the cross. The Sabbath is a memorial of God’s creative power. His creative act is why He is deserving of our worship and praise (see Revelation 14:7)! The Sabbath is the day God rested from His creating and then He blessed, sanctified and made the seventh day holy.

Now if the Ten Commandments are still in existence the following texts will make more sense.

Romans 7:7, 12-13​

“What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, ‘You shall not covet.’ Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good... Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.​

What law is being quoted from here? The ten commandments right? My Bible’s center column chain reference throws me back to Exodus 20:17 and Deuteronomy 5:21, the Ten Commandments. Is this saying that only the tenth command of the Ten Commandments is holy, just and good? Obviously not!

James 2:9-12​

“But if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, ’do not commit adultery,’ also said, ’do not murder.’ Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.”​

The Ten Commandments are not a method of salvation. They are our mirror whereby we see that we are sinners in need of a Savior. If there is no law, then there is no sin. If there is no sin, then there is no need of a Savior.

At this point I’d just like to say I appreciate current dilemma of the critics. Most churches that lay hold on the name Jesus Christ are not teaching that the Sabbath of the Ten Commandments is of any significance. But I ask you, is the majority always right? If so, then the church organization with the most members should be the one that should have all the truth. The Catholic church has the largest membership, but it is also what spawned the name Protestant. The Catholic church was not following the Bible and the Bible only (sola scriptura) and for this reason great reformers such as John Wycliffe, Martin Luther, John Huss, and many others, suffered incredible persecution to bring the truth of the Bible to light. The Catholic church lays claim to the fact that it is the one responsible for changing the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. It also significantly altered the Ten Commandments, dropping out the command not to have graven images and splitting in two one of the other nine in order to maintain the number ten. If indeed the commandments were changed by the Catholic church, could it be that traditions of man have been kept, even in many Protestant denominations? This would have some very negative repercussions because in Mark 7:7-9 Jesus says, “And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do." Furthermore He said, "All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. For Moses said, ‘honor your father and your mother ...’”

Again please note that Christ refers to a command from the Decalogue. What does He say of the worship that is done by those who lay aside the commandment of God? He says “in vain do they worship me” (see also Acts 5:29 and Colossians 2:8). It doesn’t matter whether you are sincere in your belief. You can be sincerely wrong.

The Sabbath is a special test command placed in the heart of the Ten. It is for us the same as the tree of knowledge of good and evil was for Adam and Eve. It’s not a difficult command, and in fact it was made for our benefit. Mark 2:27 says “the Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath:” There is a spiritual benefit to be attained by keeping the Bible Sabbath.

The Sabbath is holy. What does it mean for something to be “holy”? When Moses approached the burning bush, God spoke to him and told him to remove his sandals. Why? Because the place where he was standing was holy ground. What made the ground holy? It was God’s presence in the ground that made it holy, right? In a similar way, that we as finite beings may not fully understand, the seventh day Sabbath is imbued with the presence of God! There is a special blessing to be attained by worshipping on the day which God rested, the day He blessed and made holy. No other day can lay hold of these special claims because God never applied these characteristics to any other day.

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

JUMP STATION​

Ten Reasons I'm a Sabbatarian	Notice that none of the critics respond to the ten reasons
Creation Sabbath Origin	For those who insist the Sabbath is only for the Jews
Spiritual vs Physical	A look at how the critics want to spiritualize rest but not food or drink
The New Covenant	Most critics conflate the law with being the agreement/covenant.
Works Relation to Salvation	Works reveal if your faith is real

Hi spark, it seems to me that you are just opening a can of worms . Messianic believers certainly will not believe your ideas and of course I never have. The ten commandments name a few things man should not do, but without the remainder of the Law there would not be any consequences during the lives of the perpetrators. SDAs use some of the laws found only in the remainder of what God proclaimed at Sinai. That is where tithing was required from a certain group of people and also the dietary laws are found. I understand your prophet taught that if you don't return a faithful tithe you will not receive your eternal reward. I also understand that only a third of those proclaiming to be Adventists actually do return a faithful tithe according to her rules.

 

[Icyspark]

Hi Icyspark Happy Sabbath! So you think the ten commandments are the mirror mentioned in chapter 1 and that which is called the law of liberty?


James starts the chapter 1 saying have faith and do not doubt. Then in respect to being tempted by our own lusts James through the Spirit says, we are to receive the engrafted word that begot us. Be doers of the word that has become part of us, having been engrafted through being born of It. Because if we are a hearer of the engrafted word and not a doer then we are as if we behold this new person that is begotten of the Word of truth in a mirror and walk away forgetting what we are, this first fruit of His creation begotten by the word of truth and thereby having the engrafted Word which is able to save our souls. But whosoever looks into this that which they become with the engrafted word, the perfect law having been engrafted in us, that law of freedom because it is now part of us. And is a doer of this work he is blessed indeed.

The law of liberty is the fact the word is engrafted and made part of us. The fact that it has been made part of us has given us liberty.
It actually reads in the Greek in chapter one Into Law perfect that of the freedom "εἰς Into νόμον Law τέλειον Perfect, τὸν That τῆς of the ἐλευθερίας Freedom," Not Law of Liberty.

We know that we are according to James to have a heart for the widow and fatherless and not have respect of persons due to status, It also says about fulfilling the Royal Law and alludes to the Ten Commandments and having mercy. All this is from the word, the book of the law and the Tablets. Not just the Ten. And in the mentioning these, we are expected to be living the example because we will be judged by this that has been engrafted, made part of us, which is now The Law Perfect that of freedom because it has been made part of us.

Our heart is changed we are the first fruit. A new creature, All things are new and of God. And because it is now part of us that is what we should see when we look in a mirror. So don't forget what manner of man we are now. That which is begotten of the word of truth, A first fruit of his and be a doer of this work, not a hearer only deceiving our own selves.

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Jas 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Jas 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
Jas 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law, that of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Hi Him,

If I'm understanding you correctly I believe that I'm in basic agreement with much of what you're saying.

I'd say that by looking into the law we see if we are clean or if we're dirty. The law/mirror reveals whether we're sinners. It doesn't do anything other than reveal our condition. We don't use the law to cleanse ourselves of sin. The law shows us our sin and directs us to Jesus for cleansing.

Antinomians reject the law and obedience. Consistency would dictate that they see themselves as sinless with no need for a Savior.

God bless!

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[Icyspark]

1. Do you agree that when Paul affirms one of the Ten that he is affirming the entire set?

I believe he is affirming the entire law.

Hi Leaf473,

Based on the information laid out in the opening post and the fact that the commandments written on stone are inextricably attached to a numeral I'd say that this isn't likely.

Consider a scenario. I am speaking to an audience which regularly plays board games and of the number of board games available to them the one most often played is Monopoly. If I mention Boardwalk and Park Place all those familiar with board games immediately know I'm referring to two of the 28 properties in the game of Monopoly. I don't need to list all 28 for them to realize, "Ah yes, he's speaking of two of the properties in the game of Monopoly!" My referring to two of the properties does not likewise provide the option to conclude that only those two of the 28 properties remain and that all the other 26 are now discontinued from the game. That'd be absurd, right? They will also not automatically assume that I'm referring to all the Chance and Community Chest cards. Those are also part of the game but they are known to be separate from the property cards.

1. Do you agree with Paul that if there is no law then there is no sin?

Yes. However, law doesn't have to be written.

I agree. Adam and Eve were described as sinners for having transgressed a spoken command not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. But would it be fair to say that whether or not spoken or written in order for someone to be condemned as a sinner that they need to be aware of a law defining proper action? So for Cain to be counted as a sinner for murdering his brother he first needed to know that murder was forbidden.

1. Do you agree that the law is subdivided?

I agree that it can be. We can say that there are those laws that have the word "Levite" in them and those that don't.

The opening post lays out the biblical foundation for the subdivision of the law, so I won't belabor the point other than to reemphasize that God specifically commanded that the Ten Commandments be separate from the requirements, decrees and laws written in the book of the law.

1. Do you agree that when God gave the Ten Commandment covenant He did so in a manner which was different from the other 603?

Yes. However, he also gave the laws in Leviticus in a different fashion compared to the laws in Exodus or Deuteronomy. The laws in Leviticus were given at the door of the tent of meeting.

If you read the opening post you surely understand the point I'm making. God Himself spoke the Ten Commandments for all the people to hear; God wrote the Ten with His own finger; God wrote the Ten in stone; God wrote the Ten in stone a second time; God commanded that the Ten be isolated from the requirements, decrees and laws written in the book of the law.

1. Do you agree that the Ten Commandments were known prior to Mount Sinai? (refer to point 4)

Yes. Other laws were also known. For example, levitate marriage was also known.

A proper sacrifice was also known, yet there is no record of God providing instructions for this. Critics have no problem with this but even though the Sabbath is spelled out in Genesis 2:1-3 these same people insist it be spelled out to their personal specifications. That's certainly disingenuous.

1. Do you agree that you are still a sinner? (see point 4)

I still miss the mark, Yes. However, I am deemed righteous.

What mark are you missing? Are you deemed righteous if you intentionally disobey any of God's commandments? Jesus says if you love Him you will obey Him. Do your actions reveal you love Him? Or do you get to keep on sinning that grace may abound?

Thanks for your post. Regarding the question I asked,

We now have the entire law divided into two sets:​

The Ten Commandments​

and​

Every other law.​

​

Which set is in effect for us today?​

What is your answer? From your post, I get the sense that it's just the 10. Is that correct?

I don't know that I'd go that far. Certainly I'm arguing that the Ten are a unique and separate set of laws which has not had one jot or one tittle removed from it. Christians—if they truly love Jesus—will be obedient to all ten commandments of this covenant.

The decrees and regulations could be categories which contain the sacrificial system which would need to be adjusted at the death of Jesus since to continue doing them would be a denial of the death and resurrection of Jesus.

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[Leaf473]

Hi Leaf473,

Based on the information laid out in the opening post and the fact that the commandments written on stone are inextricably attached to a numeral I'd say that this isn't likely.

Consider a scenario. I am speaking to an audience which regularly plays board games and of the number of board games available to them the one most often played is Monopoly. If I mention Boardwalk and Park Place all those familiar with board games immediately know I'm referring to two of the 28 properties in the game of Monopoly. I don't need to list all 28 for them to realize, "Ah yes, he's speaking of two of the properties in the game of Monopoly!" My referring to two of the properties does not likewise provide the option to conclude that only those two of the 28 properties remain and that all the other 26 are now discontinued from the game. That'd be absurd, right? They will also not automatically assume that I'm referring to all the Chance and Community Chest cards. Those are also part of the game but they are known to be separate from the property cards.





I agree. Adam and Eve were described as sinners for having transgressed a spoken command not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

But would it be fair to say that whether or not spoken or written in order for someone to be condemned as a sinner that they need to be aware of a law defining proper action?

Yes.

So for Cain to be counted as a sinner for murdering his brother he first needed to know that murder was forbidden.

The opening post lays out the biblical foundation for the subdivision of the law, so I won't belabor the point other than to reemphasize that God specifically commanded that the Ten Commandments be separate from the requirements, decrees and laws written in the book of the law.

Well, I believe the division that we're looking for is which laws are to be kept today, as opposed to ones that no longer need to be kept.

If you read the opening post you surely understand the point I'm making. God Himself spoke the Ten Commandments for all the people to hear; God wrote the Ten with His own finger; God wrote the Ten in stone; God wrote the Ten in stone a second time; God commanded that the Ten be isolated from the requirements, decrees and laws written in the book of the law.





A proper sacrifice was also known, yet there is no record of God providing instructions for this. Critics have no problem with this but even though the Sabbath is spelled out in Genesis 2:1-3 these same people insist it be spelled out to their personal specifications. That's certainly disingenuous.

What mark are you missing?

Living God's right away all the time.

Are you deemed righteous if you intentionally disobey any of God's commandments?

No, I don't think so. But I think it has to be a very overt intention.

Jesus says if you love Him you will obey Him. Do your actions reveal you love Him?

Yes, I believe so.

Or do you get to keep on sinning that grace may abound?

No.

I don't know that I'd go that far.

But that's the key point. You haven't yet presented a complete approach to the law.

Certainly I'm arguing that the Ten are a unique and separate set of laws which has not had one jot or one tittle removed from it. Christians—if they truly love Jesus—will be obedient to all ten commandments of this covenant.

The decrees and regulations could be categories which contain the sacrificial system which would need to be adjusted at the death of Jesus since to continue doing them would be a denial of the death and resurrection of Jesus.

Yes, they could be. If it's critical of your approach of dividing up the entire law, then you may wish to search the scriptures and find the answer for sure.

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

I think it would be very helpful if you would present a complete approach to dividing up the entire law. If we show our love to Jesus by obeying, it's very important to know what we are to obey imo.

I feel like we've had a very good and respectful discussion so far. It's possible that when you go to lay out your complete approach to the law, it will turn out that some of the things that you thought about dividing the law at first end up being modified. But we won't know for sure until you do it!

Peace be with you, my man

 

[daq]

I think it would be very helpful if you would present a complete approach to dividing up the entire law. If we show our love to Jesus by obeying, it's very important to know what we are to obey imo.

What about the following instruction of the Master where he not only quotes from Isa 66:24 but also Lev 2:13? Would that be a good example of doing what the Master says because we love him? But how can we fulfill the instruction if we say that the commandment in Lev 2:13 has been done away with, or that the prophecy in Isa 66:19-24 has not yet come to pass, and is rather for some unknown future time of prophetic fulfillment?

Mark 9:43-49 KJV
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [Isa 66:24]
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [Isa 66:24]
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [Isa 66:24]
49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. [Lev 2:13]

Isaiah 66:19-24 KJV
19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.
20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.
21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; [Mark 9:44-48] and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

There is only one place where the commandment to add salt to sacrifices and offerings is given:

Leviticus 2:13 KJV
13 And every oblation of thy meat offering shalt thou season with salt; neither shalt thou suffer the salt of the covenant of thy God to be lacking from thy meat offering: with all thine offerings thou shalt offer salt.

I guess the SDA's will need to add that one back in.