The Rapture theory is true?

[Oseas]

You are quick to speak bad of a brother. That is not love as per 1 Cor. 13. I wonder why? Can you not rightly exegete a scriptural passage - so you replace exegesis with derogatory comments?

The WORD is GOD. Yeah, the WORD is GOD. Nothing random happens, only and only what the WORD of GOD says will happen.

All things are under the control of the Word - the Word is God.

Your interpretations of the letter of Scriptures are mere opinions, imaginations, presumptions, conjectures, suppositions, and have nothing to do with the Spirit of God,
but with an apostate spirit.

The Word is GOD.

 

[Oseas]

I understand: you are incapable of good exegesis, so you resort to name calling.

The WORD is GOD. Yeah, the WORD is GOD. Nothing random happens, only and only what the WORD of GOD says will happen.

All things are under the control of the Word - the Word is God.

Your interpretations of the letter of Scriptures are mere opinions, imaginations, presumptions, conjectures, suppositions, and have nothing to do with the Spirit of God,
but with an apostate spirit.

The Word is GOD.

 

[iamlamad]

The WORD is GOD. Yeah, the WORD is GOD. Nothing random happens, only and only what the WORD of GOD says will happen.

All things are under the control of the Word - the Word is God.

Your interpretations of the letter of Scriptures are mere opinions, imaginations, presumptions, conjectures, suppositions, and have nothing to do with the Spirit of God,
but with an apostate spirit.

The Word is GOD.

You are demonstrating yet again that you cannot exegete scripture, but can only talk against those that do. If you can't believe Paul in his second letter that the departing (of the church) must come first, then study his first letter: there Paul teaches that the rapture must come before wrath. In Revelation that is before the 6th seal, where the start of the DAY of wrath is announced. In comparison, the man of sin will not show up in Revelation to be revealed until the 7th trumpet, over 3.5 years future to the 6th seal.

It is no mistake that God showed John the just raptured church already in heaven in Rev. 7 - before any part of the 70th week begins.
We do agree that "the Word" is God.

 

[Biblewriter]

This is what Paul stated.

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come , except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Just because you and others want to believe "falling away" means departing from this earth doesn't make it so. The 646 Greek word apostasia- means defection from truth, falling away, forsake. If you want to add departing to that, it would still mean departing from the truth.

Paul later teaches about not receiving the love of this very truth.

II Thessalonians 2:10 "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth,"

II Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie;

II Thessalonians 2:12 "That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

There's a fake christ that eventually will be on the horizon. He comes before Christ. If you don't want to accept the truth of that you are in danger of "falling away" to the fake one. The warnings Christ and Paul are very serious. "Falling away" means defection from the truth. These are Christian people because they obviously once had the truth but will fall away from that. Unsaved people having nothing to fall away from.



This has nothing to do with the holy spirt. The holy spirit will always be here until Christ returns. Some will even be delivered up as Christ taught and it will be the Holy Spirit that speaks through them.

The only thing stopping Satan is the battle at the appointed time with Michael and his angels.

Paul teaches us that we have to have the full armour on to battle Satan and to be able to stand in that evil "day" He does not teach us that we will be flying away. Quite the opposite and this goes hand in hand with Christ's teaching that those that endure to the end, the same shall be saved.

The Greek word "apostia" does NOT mean "a departure from the truth." it simply means "a departure." This word is often used in regard to a departure from the truth. But that is not the basic meaning of this Greek word. The Greek historian Strabo told of how approximateld half of the ancient nation of Ethiopia moved from ite original home along the upper reaches of the Euphrates River to the upper reaches of the Nile River. Thereafter, he called those Ethiopians who had so moved, the "apostate" Ethiopians.

 

[iamlamad]

The Greek word "apostia" does NOT mean "a departure from the truth." it simply means "a departure." This word is often used in regard to a departure from the truth. But that is not the basic meaning of this Greek word. The Greek historian Strabo told of how approximateld half of the ancient nation of Ethiopia moved from ite original home along the upper reaches of the Euphrates River to the upper reaches of the Nile River. Thereafter, he called those Ethiopians who had so moved, the "apostate" Ethiopians.

In other words, "the departed" Ethiopians.

If we keep this idea in mind and insert it into Paul's context (the rest of the passage) what is Paul saying?
This significant departing has to be the restrainer taken out of the way, for in verse 3b, after "apostasia," the man of sin is revealed.

 

[BobRyan]

You need to reread Matthew 24 as well as Paul's teachings in both of the Thessalonians. Paul says our gathering back to him will "not happen" until the son of perdition sits on the throne proclaiming to be God. Christ and him both give very strict warnings to not be deceived on this very subject. The Thessalonians were confused by his first letter so he writes a second one and nails down what "must" happen.

And remember these were letters, not books with chapters, the subject never changes from 1st Thessalonians chapter 4 into 5 where he calls the event of chapter 4 -The day of the Lord.

yes that is certainly true.

The rapture happens at the 2nd coming just as Christ said in John 14:1-3 and Paul says in 1 Thess 4:13-18 and 2 Thess 2:1-11.

That is when the saints (both the living and the dead) are taken to heaven.

 

[BobRyan]

The Greek word "apostia" does NOT mean "a departure from the truth." it simply means "a departure."

depends on the context. In 2 Thess 2 that "falling away" is from truth. (Greek and Hebrew are "high context" languages, when it comes to the meaning for a word in a given context)

A good point made about that 2 Thess 2 context here

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come , except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Just because you and others want to believe "falling away" means departing from this earth doesn't make it so. The 646 Greek word apostasia- means defection from truth, falling away, forsake. If you want to add departing to that, it would still mean departing from the truth.

Paul later teaches about not receiving the love of this very truth.

II Thessalonians 2:10 "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth,"

II Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie;

II Thessalonians 2:12 "That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

 

[JulieB67]

The Greek word "apostia" does NOT mean "a departure from the truth." it simply means "a departure.

Hey, if you want to believe it means physical depature that's fine. But in the Koine Greek period, it was never used as a physical departure but as a departure from a religious or political stance. And it certainly means that in context of what Paul is trying to tell us in that chapter in regards of people not accepting the love of the "truth". Context is so important. Even his warning to start that verse should make us sit up and take notice,

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let know man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

This echoes Christ's warnings in the gospels. That's how important it is,

Matthew 24:4 "And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Take heed that no man deceive you."

We need to heed their warnings and especially Christ's teachings that he comes at an hour that most do not expect.

That's how important this is.

The same word -Greek 646 apostasia is used for forsake in this verse,

Acts 21:21 "And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that neither to walk after the customs."

 

[Biblewriter]

In other words, "the departed" Ethiopians.

If we keep this idea in mind and insert it into Paul's context (the rest of the passage) what is Paul saying?
This significant departing has to be the restrainer taken out of the way, for in verse 3b, after "apostasia," the man of sin is revealed.

I have examined this interpretation in detail, and have concluded that this indeed MIGHT be what the Holy Spirit meant by those words. But it is also possible that the thought of a "departure from the faith" is what He meant. So I have concluded that, at my personal level of scholarship, I cannot positively say which meaning was intended in this passage.

 

[BobRyan]

The "in context" verses about the issue being in regard "to truth" where one entity is departing from it and others need to have a "love of it" - makes it pretty clear.

apostasia

Outline of Biblical Usage

1. a falling away, defection, apostasy

ἀποστασία apostasía, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah; feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.

Young's Literal Translation "3 let not any one deceive you in any manner, because -- if the falling away may not come first, and the man of sin be revealed -- the son of the destruction,"

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"leaving the office" is not even an option.

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Matthew Henry's Commentary on 2Thess 2:3

"There were several events previous to the second coming of Christ; in particular, he tells them there would be,

"I. A general apostasy, there would come a falling away first,

" 2 Thessalonians 2:3. By this apostasy we are not to understand a defection in the state, or from civil government, but in spiritual or religious matters, from sound doctrine, instituted worship and church government, and a holy life. The apostle speaks of some very great apostasy, not only of some converted Jews or Gentiles, but such as should be very general, though gradual, and should give occasion to the revelation of rise of antichrist, that man of sin."

 

[Biblewriter]

Hey, if you want to believe it means physical depature that's fine. But in the Koine Greek period, it was never used as a physical departure but as a departure from a religious or political stance. And it certainly means that in context of what Paul is trying to tell us in that chapter in regards of people not accepting the love of the "truth". Context is so important. Even his warning to start that verse should make us sit up and take notice,

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let know man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

This echoes Christ's warnings in the gospels. That's how important it is,

Matthew 24:4 "And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Take heed that no man deceive you."

We need to heed their warnings and especially Christ's teachings that he comes at an hour that most do not expect.

That's how important this is.

The same word -Greek 646 apostasia is used for forsake in this verse,

Acts 21:21 "And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that neither to walk after the customs."

I have conclusively proved that in ancient Greek, this word was used in regard to a departure from a place. Now you are alleging, without an atom of evidence, that in a particular period it was never used in that sense. But THAT is a claim that you not only HAVE not proved, but you CAN not prove. For to prove it was NEVER used in that sense, you would have to examine every text that was written during that period, and listen to every conversation from that period.

 

[BobRyan]

"in context" as Matthew Henry, and Young's Literal, and the usage of the term in scripture show, in addition to the elements "in the chapter" about rejecting the love of truth - it is irrefutable.

apostasia

Outline of Biblical Usage

1. a falling away, defection, apostasy

ἀποστασία apostasía, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah; feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.

 

[JulieB67]

I have conclusively proved that in ancient Greek, this word was used in regard to a departure from a place. Now you are alleging, without an atom of evidence, that in a particular period it was never used in that sense.

I meant Koine Greek in a biblical sense, that's why I posted the Acts verse.

If it really meant departure in the physical sense, wouldn't it have made more sense to use the word in this verse?

II Timothy 4:6 "For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.

The Greek word is 359 -analusis and it means simply that, departure.

Paul probably knew he didn't have much time left on this earth.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I have examined this interpretation in detail, and have concluded that this indeed MIGHT be what the Holy Spirit meant by those words. But it is also possible that the thought of a "departure from the faith" is what He meant. So I have concluded that, at my personal level of scholarship, I cannot positively say which meaning was intended in this passage.

The context of 2 Thess 2 very clearly indicates that it's referring to a departure or falling away from the faith. The departure from the faith is the result of unrestrained wickedness (2 Thess 2:7). Jesus Himself said that there would be an increase in wickedness before He comes (Matt 24:12). Isn't that what we would expect to happen if wickedness was unrestrained?

Think about how things were in Noah's day before the flood. Jesus said it would be like that before He comes (Matt 24:37-39). In order for things to be that bad in terms of overall wickedness and immorality, it would require a mass departure from the faith.

 

[iamlamad]

The context of 2 Thess 2 very clearly indicates that it's referring to a departure or falling away from the faith. The departure from the faith is the result of unrestrained wickedness (2 Thess 2:7). Jesus Himself said that there would be an increase in wickedness before He comes (Matt 24:12). Isn't that what we would expect to happen if wickedness was unrestrained?

Think about how things were in Noah's day before the flood. Jesus said it would be like that before He comes (Matt 24:37-39). In order for things to be that bad in terms of overall wickedness and immorality, it would require a mass departure from the faith.

Which kind of departure fits the context of the rest of this passage:

1. A departure from faith (although the Greek word gives no indication of what is departed from what)
2. The departing of the body of Christ at the gathering.

Keep in mind, a few words after "apostasia" Paul writes that the man of sin is revealed. HOW did he get revealed? (Not literally but in Paul's argument.)

Which kind of departing best fits causing the man of sin to be revealed? Or, we could say it this way:
Which kind of departing best fits the restraining power being "taken out of the way?

 

[iamlamad]

"in context" as Matthew Henry, and Young's Literal, and the usage of the term in scripture show, in addition to the elements "in the chapter" about rejecting the love of truth - it is irrefutable.

apostasia

Outline of Biblical Usage

1. a falling away, defection, apostasy

ἀποστασία apostasía, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah; feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.

The question could be asked: is this the ONLY way this word could be used? It is a compound word. Each of the two other words that make up this compound word has meaning also.

Let me give an example: we have an English word: Paradigm. It is made up from para - with the idea of parallel or paratrooper - two things side by side - and "digm - which is to show. The idea was to bring two things up close, side by side, to show how similar or how different.

Now days a dictionary says "an example serving as a model; a pattern, a model"

In other words, the use of this word has changed. However, it could still be used as comparing things side by side so as to show them clearly.

Strong's tells us for "Apo" it could mean a part of a group removed spatially to another location.
The other half of the word means "standing" like a stationary engine that does not move.

If we put the two ideas together, it certainly could mean the church (a part of a whole group) removed spatially to another location and it happen SO FAST the rest of the world appears standing still.

One thing is certain: the way Paul constructed his sentence, whatever his intended meaning of apostasia, it has to be the restraining force taken out of the way, for a few words later, Paul tells us the man of sin is revealed (In his argument).

 

[iamlamad]

yes that is certainly true.

The rapture happens at the 2nd coming just as Christ said in John 14:1-3 and Paul says in 1 Thess 4:13-18 and 2 Thess 2:1-11.

That is when the saints (both the living and the dead) are taken to heaven.

I can agree, but I with this caveat: the second coming is His NEXT coming to get His saints, and return to heaven. Seven plus years later He will come WITH His saints.

 

[keras]

I can agree, but I with this caveat: the second coming is His NEXT coming to get His saints, and return to heaven. Seven plus years later He will come WITH His saints.

A belief that contradicts much scripture and opposes Gods plans for His faithful people.
Did the early Christians get 'raptured'? No; and still today people are killed for their Christian faith.
God is not going to change the allowing of His people to be martyred. Proved by Revelation 6:9-11, where the souls of those killed before have to wait until their number is completed. Right up until the Return of Jesus.

The 'rapture to heaven' of the Church is a Satanically inspired fable and those who believe it are under serious deception.

 

[BobRyan]

I can agree, but I with this caveat: the second coming is His NEXT coming to get His saints, and return to heaven. Seven plus years later He will come WITH His saints.

Jesus said in John 14:1-3 "I will come again and receive you to Myself that (in order that) WHERE I am THERE you may be also"

2 Thess 2:1 regarding the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit, or a message, or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 No one is to deceive you in any way! For it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

Matt 24

• "what will be the sign of your coming"
• "immediately after the tribulation of those days...
• "they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory"
• "He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

 

[BobRyan]

One thing is certain: the way Paul constructed his sentence, whatever his intended meaning of apostasia, it has to be the restraining force taken out of the way, for a few words later, Paul tells us the man of sin is revealed (In his argument).

Not sure how you get to that conclusion.

The falling away comes first- the apostasy from truth.

then after that - the restraining force against Satan is removed
then after that - Satan/or-anti-christ appears.