The Question Abortion Advocates Won’t Answer

[redleghunter]

Abortions are not directly killing your own child, obviously.

BTW it would not be as easy as you think.

You mean the abortionist directly kills the child? Who tells the abortionist to perform the abortion?

And you are correct it is not an easy situation. However, the Kobayashi Maru you presented is similar to the decisions pagans made in leaving their deformed children outside to die. I’m sure that was a difficult situation too, but the early Christians took in those children and did everything in their means and power to save them.

Now for a true story account. It was 1967 a devout Catholic lady was pregnant at the age of 39. As her child developed in the womb an unknown tumor grew at the same rate as the child in the womb. At the 8th month some specialists said the child would probably not come to term her uterus was sure to rupture and an operation was necessary. An old fashioned family doctor told her, the tumor was most likely benign, the child was fine and they could induce. But being 1967, they waited for nature to take its course.

What was this woman’s and husband’s first decision? They went to church and prayed. Hours later after leaving church the hopeful mother to be went into labor 3 weeks after the due date. Her husband took her to the hospital and after a long labor and difficult birth the child was born healthy. Three weeks later there was nothing left of the tumor.

My parents took me home shortly after to meet my brother and sisters.

My mother told me years later that my birth was the most traumatic and painful experience she ever endured. I believe her because I still have memories of the birth.

 

[GodLovesCats]

That is awesome. Of course now doctors have a ton of technology to deliver the baby a month early and I would expect some obstetricians to favor that approach.

Birthing is extremely painful because God made it so as punishment for Eve's original sin.

 

[SPF]

1 thess 5
Body, spirit, soul all 3 must be present

Which verse in I Thess 5 says this?

I'm crying foul. The scripture never outright says that. So I am asking the question where do you get that. Where does the scripture directly say life begins at conception.

Well, as a self-claimed serious theologian with an undergrad in Bible and an incomplete seminary education, I completely agree with you that Scripture never outright says "At fertilization, the living human being has a soul." However, Scripture also never outright says that God is Triune, yet we both agree and acknowledge the Trinity.

So let's at least acknowledge what we do know.

We know biologically that a new, unique, living, growing human being comes into existence at fertilization. This is a bilogically, scientifically proven fact. In fact, you'll see this acknowledged in the abortion debate as educated pro-abortion advocates have shifted the debate to the philosophical discussion of personhood, not when life begins.

We know Biblically that all human beings are created in the image of God and possess inherent moral worth and value. Our moral worth and value has nothing to do with any action on our part - it is inherent in us because human beings are unique among all of God's creation in that we alone are created with the Imago Dei.

Those two facts alone ought to be enough to settle the debate for Christians.

1. A new human being comes into existence at fertilization.
2. All human beings are created in the image of God and possess inherent moral worth and value.

However. What it sounds to me like you're claiming is that the second point is false. It sounds like you're attempting to say that only when a human being possesses a soul do they become created in the image of God, and therefore it is at ensoulment that they become inherently morally valuable. The problem is that I don't see this in Scripture.

I don't see in Scripture where there is ever an instance of a living human being that did not have a soul.

We do have the example of John the Baptist in Luke 1. We do know that while John was still in his mother's womb that he was filled with the Holy Spirit. We do know that upon hearing the voice of Mary that he "leapt" for joy (his joy) because the Spirit in Him was testifying about Jesus. Therefore, we at least do know from Scripture that ensoulment is in place prior to birth.

The only question then left is whether ensoulment happens at fertilization, or if ensoulment happens a few days, weeks, or months after fertilization, but clearly before birth.

I think the evidence is in favor of ensoulment happening at fertilization. Again, I can't think of any instances in Scripture where there is ever a living human being without a soul. Can you?

Biologically, we know that a human being takes roughly 25 years to develop, yet at all points of our development we are still a human being, we look like a human being is supposed to look at all stages of development. Our body is technically the physical component to our existence, therefore we always have a body, it just doesn't have arms or legs when it first begins to grow. But we shouldn't discriminate against a human being because of the level of their development. As a serious theologian, I would assume we can have that common ground.

So for me, unless you can provide some sort of positive argument for why we should expect there to ever be living human beings without souls, I don't see why we should think that.

While I personally don't like using Adam as an analogy because he is a one-off example, the example of Adam would support the idea of ensoulment at fertilization. God created Adam's body, but it wasn't alive until God breathed life into Adam. Adam was never alive without a soul. Likewise, a new, living human being exists at fertilization. So the analogy would be that ensoulment for us happens at fertilization as that is when we become alive. Adam was given his soul when he became alive, and so do we today.

 

[redleghunter]

I think the evidence is in favor of ensoulment happening at fertilization. Again, I can't think of any instances in Scripture where there is ever a living human being without a soul. Can you?

Indeed a body without a soul in the Bible is the very definition of death.

 

[GodLovesCats]

We know Biblically that all human beings are created in the image of God and possess inherent moral worth and value. Our moral worth and value has nothing to do with any action on our part - it is inherent in us because human beings are unique among all of God's creation in that we alone are created with the Imago Dei.

You can't combine these two. If "the image of God" is how He wants His children to be made, so are all of the other living organisms from bacteria to sequoia trees.

Therefore, "the image of God" must have a totally different definition if you want to use it in the abortion debate. If this is the case, we are not created in the image of God.

 

[SPF]

You can't combine these two. If "the image of God" is how He wants His children to be made, so are all of the other living organisms from bacteria to sequoia trees.

Therefore, "the image of God" must have a totally different definition if you want to use it in the abortion debate. If this is the case, we are not created in the image of God.

The idea that human beings are unique among God's creation and are created in His image is about as fundamental and basic with regards to Christian beliefs as you can get.

Gen 1:26,27 - Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

The inherent moral worth and value that extends to all humans is based upon the fact that we are created in the image of God. We are all, regardless of our age, gender, race, and nationality equally created in the image of God and equally possessing inherent moral worth and value.

This is one of the fundamental reasons that your belief that abortion in the case of rape is morally acceptable fails. It doesn't matter how we come into existence. All human beings are equally morally valuable.

 

[GodLovesCats]

I was not talking about how we come into being at all.

What does it mean that man was created in God's image if all of the other things He made were not?

 

[SPF]

I was not talking about how we come into being at all.

No, you were not. However, I know your position on abortion being morally acceptable in the cases of rape, and what I said speaks to the inconsistency of that position.

What does it mean that man was created in God's image if all of the other things He made were not?

What does it mean that humanity is made in the image of God (imago dei)? | GotQuestions.org

 

[Adventist Heretic]

Which verse in I Thess 5 says this?

Well, as a self-claimed serious theologian with an undergrad in Bible and an incomplete seminary education, I completely agree with you that Scripture never outright says "At fertilization, the living human being has a soul." However, Scripture also never outright says that God is Triune, yet we both agree and acknowledge the Trinity.

So let's at least acknowledge what we do know.

We know biologically that a new, unique, living, growing human being comes into existence at fertilization. This is a bilogically, scientifically proven fact. In fact, you'll see this acknowledged in the abortion debate as educated pro-abortion advocates have shifted the debate to the philosophical discussion of personhood, not when life begins.

We know Biblically that all human beings are created in the image of God and possess inherent moral worth and value. Our moral worth and value has nothing to do with any action on our part - it is inherent in us because human beings are unique among all of God's creation in that we alone are created with the Imago Dei.

Those two facts alone ought to be enough to settle the debate for Christians.

1. A new human being comes into existence at fertilization.
2. All human beings are created in the image of God and possess inherent moral worth and value.

However. What it sounds to me like you're claiming is that the second point is false. It sounds like you're attempting to say that only when a human being possesses a soul do they become created in the image of God, and therefore it is at ensoulment that they become inherently morally valuable. The problem is that I don't see this in Scripture.

I don't see in Scripture where there is ever an instance of a living human being that did not have a soul.

We do have the example of John the Baptist in Luke 1. We do know that while John was still in his mother's womb that he was filled with the Holy Spirit. We do know that upon hearing the voice of Mary that he "leapt" for joy (his joy) because the Spirit in Him was testifying about Jesus. Therefore, we at least do know from Scripture that ensoulment is in place prior to birth.

The only question then left is whether ensoulment happens at fertilization, or if ensoulment happens a few days, weeks, or months after fertilization, but clearly before birth.

I think the evidence is in favor of ensoulment happening at fertilization. Again, I can't think of any instances in Scripture where there is ever a living human being without a soul. Can you?

Biologically, we know that a human being takes roughly 25 years to develop, yet at all points of our development we are still a human being, we look like a human being is supposed to look at all stages of development. Our body is technically the physical component to our existence, therefore we always have a body, it just doesn't have arms or legs when it first begins to grow. But we shouldn't discriminate against a human being because of the level of their development. As a serious theologian, I would assume we can have that common ground.

So for me, unless you can provide some sort of positive argument for why we should expect there to ever be living human beings without souls, I don't see why we should think that.

While I personally don't like using Adam as an analogy because he is a one-off example, the example of Adam would support the idea of ensoulment at fertilization. God created Adam's body, but it wasn't alive until God breathed life into Adam. Adam was never alive without a soul. Likewise, a new, living human being exists at fertilization. So the analogy would be that ensoulment for us happens at fertilization as that is when we become alive. Adam was given his soul when he became alive, and so do we today.

#1 is assumed not proven.

 

[SPF]

#1 is assumed not proven.

Wrong. It’s a biological fact. If I need to repeat and provide the dozens upon dozens of references that I have in virtually every other abortion thread again for your education I can.

And if the extent of your response to everything I just wrote is only that, please don’t refer to yourself as a serious theologian ever again. Clearly you aren’t here to engage in actual dialogue.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

Wrong. It’s a biological fact. If I need to repeat and provide the dozens upon dozens of references that I have in virtually every other abortion thread again for your education I can.

And if the extent of your response to everything I just wrote is only that, please don’t refer to yourself as a serious theologian ever again. Clearly you aren’t here to engage in actual dialogue.

How old are you? by your response I would guess 18-25. maybe younger. you are scolding and berating as though you can control some one else's behavior. the only person you can control is yourself. Please remember that in your future posts and allow yourself the maturity to accept the fact that honest people can see things differently. The things you state as FACT are actually INTERPRETATIONS, ASSUMPTIONS AND CONCLUSIONS. There is no out right text that says "LIFE BEGINS AT CONCEPTION" 3 OPINIONS CHAPTER 4:3. that is why I have brought up the subject. If it were as simple as you wanted to make it out to be please quote the text and verse. every text you quote assumes "awareness and feeling", but it never states it out right. The texts do say something happens in the womb at conception, it is FORMATION OF THE BODY, that is not debated. What is being debated is weather it is alive or not? How you define alive will determine how you answer that question. If there is no feeling and no awareness is it alive? only a serious theologian could ask that question and only a serious theologian would as that question and only a serious theologian would have the guts to stand up and go against everyone's common opinion if he thought it was wrong. So there you go.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

Hebrews 10:5 What does this mean.
New International Version
Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;

Was Christ in the body BEFORE or AFTER the body was prepared?

Hebrews 10:5 Parallel: Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

 

[Adventist Heretic]

You prepared
κατηρτίσω (katērtisō)
Verb - Aorist Indicative Middle - 2nd Person Singular
Strong's Greek 2675: From kata and a derivative of artios; to complete thoroughly, i.e. Repair or adjust.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

Διὸ (Dio)
Conjunction
Strong's Greek 1352: Wherefore, on which account, therefore. From dia and hos; through which thing, i.e. Consequently.

when [Christ] came
εἰσερχόμενος (eiserchomenos)
Verb - Present Participle Middle or Passive - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 1525: To go in, come in, enter. From eis and erchomai; to enter.

into
εἰς (eis)
Preposition
Strong's Greek 1519: A primary preposition; to or into, of place, time, or purpose; also in adverbial phrases.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

the text could read, "Because Christ came into the world, or in order to facilitate Christ coming into the world .......A body was prepared for Him.

 

[SPF]

How old are you? by your response I would guess 18-25. maybe younger. you are scolding and berating as though you can control some one else's behavior. the only person you can control is yourself. Please remember that in your future posts and allow yourself the maturity to accept the fact that honest people can see things differently. The things you state as FACT are actually ASSUMPTIONS AND CONCLUSION

I often see ad hominem comments like this when people have nothing of content and substance to respond with. The fact that you were only capable of providing a one sentence response to my post demonstrated that fact.

Again, scientifically, we know that a new human being comes into existence at fertilization. That’s established science.


“The life cycle of mammals begins when a sperm enters an egg.” Okada et al., A role for the elongator complex in zygotic paternal genome demethylation, NATURE 463:554 (Jan. 28, 2010)

“Fertilization is the process by which male and female haploid gametes (sperm and egg) unite to produce a genetically distinct individual.”Signorelli et al., Kinases, phosphatases and proteases during sperm capacitation, CELL TISSUE RES. 349(3):765 (Mar. 20, 2012)

“Fertilization – the fusion of gametes to produce a new organism – is the culmination of a multitude of intricately regulated cellular processes.” Marcello et al., Fertilization, ADV. EXP. BIOL. 757:321 (2013)

“It is the penetration of the ovum by a sperm and the resulting mingling of nuclear material each brings to the union that constitutes the initiation of the life of a new individual.” Clark Edward and Corliss Patten’s Human Embryology, McGraw – Hill Inc., 30

“Although it is customary to divide human development into prenatal and postnatal periods, it is important to realize that birth is merely a dramatic event during development resulting in a change in environment.” The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology fifth edition, Moore and Persaud, 1993, Saunders Company, page 1

“The zygote and early embryo are living human organisms.” Keith L. Moore & T.V.N. Persaud Before We Are Born – Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects (W.B. Saunders Company, 1998. Fifth edition.) Page 500

Biblically, we know that all humans are created in the image of God and possess inherent moral worth and value.

We also have a clear example of John the Baptist being filled with the Holy Spirit while still inside the womb.

Also, there are absolutely no examples, nothing that can be pointed to in Scripture that would suggest there is ever a living human being without a soul.

When we put those facts together, the conclusion it points us towards is clear. All humans, from fertilization are inherently morally valuable.

And as for your condescending comments, I’m considerably older than you guessed, and have quite a few more degrees than you. Yet, I would still not personally refer to myself as a “serious theologian” (no actual serious theologian would). Especially if I wasn’t actually willing to engage in substantive conversation, which you have demonstrated with two posts... that you are not.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

it was a criticism and was a response to you personal attacks. please stay on topic. Answer the question or don't participate. thank-you

 

[Adventist Heretic]

I often see ad hominem comments like this when people have nothing of content and substance to respond with. The fact that you were only capable of providing a one sentence response to my post demonstrated that fact.

Again, scientifically, we know that a new human being comes into existence at fertilization. That’s established science.


“The life cycle of mammals begins when a sperm enters an egg.” Okada et al., A role for the elongator complex in zygotic paternal genome demethylation, NATURE 463:554 (Jan. 28, 2010)

“Fertilization is the process by which male and female haploid gametes (sperm and egg) unite to produce a genetically distinct individual.”Signorelli et al., Kinases, phosphatases and proteases during sperm capacitation, CELL TISSUE RES. 349(3):765 (Mar. 20, 2012)

“Fertilization – the fusion of gametes to produce a new organism – is the culmination of a multitude of intricately regulated cellular processes.” Marcello et al., Fertilization, ADV. EXP. BIOL. 757:321 (2013)

“It is the penetration of the ovum by a sperm and the resulting mingling of nuclear material each brings to the union that constitutes the initiation of the life of a new individual.” Clark Edward and Corliss Patten’s Human Embryology, McGraw – Hill Inc., 30

“Although it is customary to divide human development into prenatal and postnatal periods, it is important to realize that birth is merely a dramatic event during development resulting in a change in environment.” The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology fifth edition, Moore and Persaud, 1993, Saunders Company, page 1

“The zygote and early embryo are living human organisms.” Keith L. Moore & T.V.N. Persaud Before We Are Born – Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects (W.B. Saunders Company, 1998. Fifth edition.) Page 500

Biblically, we know that all humans are created in the image of God and possess inherent moral worth and value.

We also have a clear example of John the Baptist being filled with the Holy Spirit while still inside the womb.

Also, there are absolutely no examples, nothing that can be pointed to in Scripture that would suggest there is ever a living human being without a soul.

When we put those facts together, the conclusion it points us towards is clear. All humans, from fertilization are inherently morally valuable.

And as for your condescending comments, I’m considerably older than you guessed, and have quite a few more degrees than you. Yet, I would still not personally refer to myself as a “serious theologian” (no actual serious theologian would). Especially if I wasn’t actually willing to engage in substantive conversation, which you have demonstrated with two posts... that you are not.

Life cycles are not life, fertalization is not life. Life = thoughts and feelings. When dose that occur.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

New International Version
As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. James 2:26 death is the sepration of the spirit and body, then life must be the joining of the spirit and body. When does that take place When does the spirit coming into the body?

 

[Adventist Heretic]

"Also, there are absolutely no examples, nothing that can be pointed to in Scripture that would suggest there is ever a living human being without a soul."

HERE YOU GO
Hebrews 10:5, CSB: "Therefore, as he was coming into the world, he said: You did not desire sacrifice and offering, but you prepared a body for me." 1. Was Christ in the body before or after the body was prepared. scripture state after. if after what was happening before the body was prepared?

New International Version
As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. James 2:26 death is the sepration of the spirit and body, then life must be the joining of the spirit and body. When does that take place When does the spirit coming into the body?