The practice of healing and working of miracles

[ByTheSpirit]

So something I've been pondering and thinking about is healing, the gift of healing, the working of miracles, and why we don't see them as much. Now this is a rather worn out topic, but I hope this discussion will come from a different angle.

In another popular thread here was are discussing this, but that thread is more about are we limited to how many healings. This is more about the practice of healing and maybe the way we go about it as being part of the problem in not seeing as many.

So in the gospels and the book of Acts, we see a number of healings and miracles take place at the hand of Jesus and the Apostles.

Acts 3:1-7
1 One afternoon Peter and John were going up to the temple at the hour of prayer, the ninth hour. 2 And a man who was lame from birth was being carried to the temple gate called Beautiful, where he was put every day to beg from those entering the temple courts. 3 When he saw Peter and John about to enter, he asked them for money.
4 Peter looked directly at him, as did John. “Look at us!” said Peter. 5 So the man gave them his attention, expecting to receive something from them. 6 But Peter said, “Silver or gold I do not have, but what I have I give you: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, get up and walk!”
7 Taking him by the right hand, Peter helped him up, and at once the man’s feet and ankles were made strong.

This is one very good example with a number of considerations I think we should give to this topic.

1. LOCATION. Peter and John were going into the Temple to pray. As they were passing into the gate, this man who was born lame gets their attention. Now the gospels don't mention this man at all. We can probably safely assume that Jesus passed by him at least one time in His earthly walk. So Jesus did not heal this man. Why?
2. TIME. Working within the will of the Father is not just about doing something that we know the Father approves of. It is also about doing those things within the timing of the Father. Mary and Martha pleaded with Jesus to come and heal Lazarus before he died, yet Jesus waited until Lazarus had been dead for 4 whole days. This is just one example of what it means to walk out the will of the Father in both practice and timing. It is the will of the Father that people are healed, but it may not be the right time. What other considerations can we pull from this?
3. PRACTICE. Peter says, "In the name of Jesus... get up and walk!" He does not say a long winded prayer over him. He does not anoint this man with oil and tell him to be blessed on his journey. He then grabs this lame man by the hand and pulls him to his feet. Now any of us who have studied the scripture and have followed the Lord for any length of time should agree that faith without action is dead. (James 2:14-26) God always requires a person to exercise their faith. Always. Even when Jesus healed the lame, He would tell them, "Get up and walk." My hunch tells me that Peter was simply mimicking what he had heard and seen Jesus do when Peter told this lame man to get up and walk.

Also, let's discuss another well known biblical passage on healing.

14 Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick. The Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven.
16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. James 5:14-16

This passage in James seems to offer some validity to the modern practice of anointing with oil and prayer. But I think there are a couple key differences as well.

1. James is writing about church practice, within the body. "Is any one of you" To me this is written specifically for Christians.
2. James is specifically referring to those who are sick, not necessarily those in need of miraculous healing. The two are not always the same.
3. James says the ELDERS (plural) should pray over the sick. Not many churches have multiple elders (pastors/overseers).
4. James says a pre-requisite of this healing is confession of sins. I have definitely not been a member of a church that practiced public confession of sins. The text says, "confess your sins TO EACH OTHER". Perhaps a reason less healing is happening, is because we do not feel it necessary to humble ourselves before other believers and confess the things that we have fallen short in.

Now again, this is a different circumstance and application than the working of miracles as I started with.

Say someone come into the church in a wheelchair. Throughout the service, they become convinced they can be restored and walk again. So they go forward for healing. What follows is what I have personally seen in more than a handful of Charismatic churches, so my experience. The minister will grab some oil, lay a hand on this person, say a 3-5 minute prayer, and then send them on their way.

What I'm saying here, is maybe that practice is wrong. And maybe can use some tweaking. Now certainly, God does not need our help or proper form and etiquette to work His wonders. But He does require faith! Faith not only in the one being ministered to, but faith from the one ministering!

I can imagine Jesus in a similar environment, telling this person in the wheelchair to just get up and walk. Then taking them by the hand and helping them to their feet.

That to me is what we should look like when we minister to others. Now, I'm not saying any of this from a position of authority or even experience. I confess that I myself have fallen prey to the "It's safer and easier to just pray and hope God shows up." But I think it's time to stop that.

How many times do we tell a lame person to walk before it's figured out that it's not God's timing yet? I don't know, I have no idea what that process looks like. I know that reading examples of people like Smith Wigglesworth, he would have to say it a few times, but eventually it would happen. It just takes faith.

Let us pray for our eyes to be open to how the Father is working around us. Let us pray for ears to hear Him when He tells us to go. Let us pray that He would stretch forth His hand and perform signs and wonders through us so that His name would be glorified!

 

[ARBITER01]

The Apostles received this,....

Act 1:8 but ye shall receive power at the coming of the Holy Spirit upon you, and ye shall be witnesses to me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and unto the end of the earth.'

And we can too, but it seems that many in the body stop at the filling of The Spirit and don't seek anything further.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

The Apostles received this,....

Act 1:8 but ye shall receive power at the coming of the Holy Spirit upon you, and ye shall be witnesses to me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and unto the end of the earth.'

And we can too, but it seems that many in the body stop at the filling of The Spirit and don't seek anything further.

There definitely seems to be an element of power missing.

Where does that power come from? In my view, it's a life of prayer and humility before God.

Jesus was ALWAYS praying and talking with the Father. After He ascended the Apostles and early church met and prayed together. After the Spirit fell they continued in prayer.

And not prayer in the sense of, "here's my needs Father, grant them!" Let us draw near in silence and reverence, looking to hear His voice, not for Him to hear ours.

Guard your steps when you go to the house of God. Draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools, who do not know that they do wrong. Do not be quick to speak, and do not be hasty in your heart to utter a word before God. After all, God is in heaven and you are on earth. So let your words be few.
Ecclesiastes 5:1‭-‬2 BSB

 

[ARBITER01]

There definitely seems to be an element of power missing.

Where does that power come from? In my view, it's a life of prayer and humility before God.

Jesus was ALWAYS praying and talking with the Father. After He ascended the Apostles and early church met and prayed together. After the Spirit fell they continued in prayer.

And not prayer in the sense of, "here's my needs Father, grant them!" Let us draw near in silence and reverence, looking to hear His voice, not for Him to hear ours.

Guard your steps when you go to the house of God. Draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools, who do not know that they do wrong. Do not be quick to speak, and do not be hasty in your heart to utter a word before God. After all, God is in heaven and you are on earth. So let your words be few.
Ecclesiastes 5:1‭-‬2 BSB

I think that power comes from this,...

Luk 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Isaiah. And he opened the book, and found the place where it was written,
Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, Because he anointed me to preach good tidings to the poor: He hath sent me to proclaim release to the captives, And recovering of sight to the blind, To set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.
Luk 4:20 And he closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant, and sat down: and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fastened on him.
Luk 4:21 And he began to say unto them, Today hath this scripture been fulfilled in your ears.

I think after Pentecost the Jewish disciples were born again, filled, and anointed upon their heads, with The Holy Spirit arriving and resting upon them throughout their walk with Jesus. I think the very same things happened in Paul's life also.

I don't see any other reason why the church would be so weak right now.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I think that power comes from this,...

Luk 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Isaiah. And he opened the book, and found the place where it was written,
Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, Because he anointed me to preach good tidings to the poor: He hath sent me to proclaim release to the captives, And recovering of sight to the blind, To set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.
Luk 4:20 And he closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant, and sat down: and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fastened on him.
Luk 4:21 And he began to say unto them, Today hath this scripture been fulfilled in your ears.

I think after Pentecost the Jewish disciples were born again, filled, and anointed upon their heads, with The Holy Spirit arriving and resting upon them throughout their walk with Jesus. I think the very same things happened in Paul's life also.

I don't see any other reason why the church would be so weak right now.

I guess where I'm coming from here is how was that power acquired or taken hold of. I feel it was through their devoting themselves to prayer. Even Paul before he was baptized fasted and prayed for three days.

 

[ARBITER01]

I guess where I'm coming from here is how was that power acquired or taken hold of. I feel it was through their devoting themselves to prayer. Even Paul before he was baptized fasted and prayed for three days.

That's correct, but there had to be a result from that sort of prayer, and the anointing upon their heads was the result. It was what Jesus pointed to as for the reason for His ministry of healing.

It comes down to this, we can be born again, filled with The Spirit, but if we don't take that additional step of seeking the anointing upon our heads, The Holy Spirit will not rest upon us in power, and without that power from Him, very little maintenance will get done in the body.

If people want an answer as to why no healing is happening in the body of Christ right now,..... there it is. You can have all the faith you want, but without His power it means nothing.

 

[ARBITER01]

While we are at it, let's look at a section of scripture on this topic,...

1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and severally members thereof.
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, divers kinds of tongues.

This section of scripture is describing ministries in the body of Christ. Notice how there are to be ministries associated with these specific gifts in the body? These ministries are not tied to a leadership position such as an apostle,.... no, they are to stand on their own.

We are suppose to see people with ministries based around the gifts of healings and the working of miracles in churches. Why don't we? Because people are not seeking them. They keep thinking that if they just worship GOD enough He will come down and heal everyone there,..... but that has no resemblance to how GOD operated through Jesus. Our example is Jesus, not acts 2.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

These ministries are not tied to a leadership position such as an apostle,.... no, they are to stand on their own.

I could be misunderstanding you some, so please read my comment here through that lens.

Miracles and healings are listed as specific gifts of the Spirit just a few sentences prior to the passage you mention, so I would agree to an extent. But I wonder about passages like this:

The signs of a true apostle were worked out among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles. 2 Corinthians 12:12

You see, some positions of ministry do have specific works of God latched onto them. In this case, Apostles should move in the power of God for miracles along with signs and wonders, otherwise they are likely a false apostle.

But we also see that miracles and healings are meant to work alongside of the preaching of the gospel to confirm the word as spoken. And I think this may be what you are referencing.

That salvation, first spoken by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard, 4 God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will. Hebrews 2:3-4

heal those in it who are sick, and say to them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’ Luke 10:9

I'm always a bit hesitant to say people should seek the gift and not the Giver. I know some scripture states that we should seek spiritual gifts, and that's a completely biblical stance to take. But I just find it misguided to say I want what Jesus can give me, not Jesus Himself. I feel His power for ministry came more through his connection to the Father than it did through a separate anointing.

Like, the anointing was there yes. But it was maintained and refreshed by His prayer life. Thus why Jesus is always recorded as going off alone to pray. And we see the Apostles continue this in Acts. That's why I started this thread with that specific discussion point in mind.

Those who persist in prayer will find the anointing of God to do the works the Father has given them. Jesus Himself said He could do only what the Father showed Him. Just maintaining that line of communication with the Father, always being alert and ready to serve when called upon and if we slip and miss an opportunity, confess it, receive forgiveness and look for the next.

9 “So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened. 11 But what father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead of a fish? 12 Or, if his son asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?” Luke 11:9-13

 

[jiminpa]

This is the state of the church.

James 1
6But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. 7For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

Religious leaders have made unbelief some sort of virtue. The Bible is viewed as having to comply with our understanding and God is required to show us the miracle before we will allow Him to do it. Good is evil.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

This is the state of the church.

James 1
6But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. 7For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

undoubtedly. I also wonder if (at least in Western Civilization) if it's not an issue of impatience. We live in such a fast paced society, where we don't know what it means to persevere for something. Some thought is given towards a task. Some may remain faithful for a bit. But how many will persist until they receive what they ask for?

I've attended churches that taught, from the pulpit that if we have to ask for God more than once, it's not His will and there's no need to ask further. What an absolute travesty to teach people that stuff. Truth be told, there may be some in this very sub-forum that believe similar things. I remember back in the days when we had the Word of Faith community and sub here, such arguments were rather rampant.

Persistent prayer, fasting, true seeking I feel are absolutely necessary. Those are fruits of genuine faith. Faith that as you pointed out from James, is not double minded, and that stops at nothing until it receives what it desires.

 

[jiminpa]

undoubtedly. I also wonder if (at least in Western Civilization) if it's not an issue of impatience. We live in such a fast paced society, where we don't know what it means to persevere for something. Some thought is given towards a task. Some may remain faithful for a bit. But how many will persist until they receive what they ask for?

I've attended churches that taught, from the pulpit that if we have to ask for God more than once, it's not His will and there's no need to ask further. What an absolute travesty to teach people that stuff. Truth be told, there may be some in this very sub-forum that believe similar things. I remember back in the days when we had the Word of Faith community and sub here, such arguments were rather rampant.

Persistent prayer, fasting, true seeking I feel are absolutely necessary. Those are fruits of genuine faith. Faith that as you pointed out from James, is not double minded, and that stops at nothing until it receives what it desires.

I don't think our pace is the big issue. The church was hijacked about 1700 years ago, and to excuse the lack of Holy Spirit involvement the leaders taught that God doesn't operate the way He did in the Bible anymore. and we have been actively disputing the Bible ever since.

You've seen it on your healing thread. They aren't even ashamed to claim that the Bible doesn't say what it explicitly says. On a sub forum supposed to be for people who believe that the Bible means what it says.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I don't think our pace is the big issue. The church was hijacked about 1700 years ago, and to excuse the lack of Holy Spirit involvement the leaders taught that God doesn't operate the way He did in the Bible anymore. and we have been actively disputing the Bible ever since.

You've seen it on your healing thread. They aren't even ashamed to claim that the Bible doesn't say what it explicitly says. On a sub forum supposed to be for people who believe that the Bible means what it says.

That's fair, there certainly are elements within the body that claim such. I've been told by AG ministers not to preach on healing because it creates false hope, so yeah I can see that

 

[jiminpa]

That's fair, there certainly are elements within the body that claim such. I've been told by AG ministers not to preach on healing because it creates false hope, so yeah I can see that

Exactly. It's self-feeding. The preachers don't believe, so they teach unbelief and "the sheep" are discouraged, so the preachers congratulate themselves on being more right than the Bible they claim to be teaching, but aren't. These people are just paraphrasing Satan's first question. It's the same tactic. Cast doubt on God's word, and by so doing, discredit God.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Exactly. It's self-feeding. The preachers don't believe, so they teach unbelief and "the sheep" are discouraged, so the preachers congratulate themselves on being more right than the Bible they claim to be teaching, but aren't. These people are just paraphrasing Satan's first question. It's the same tactic. Cast doubt on God's word, and by so doing, discredit God.

I have been discussing healing on CF for over 20 years. I have been amazed at times how some believers will actually push against healing and speak of the "benefits" of sickness. They worry sick people may be offended or feel their faith is "not good enough." Better, say they, not to teach the scriptural truth about healing than to risk someone having their feelings hurt or have them "doubt their faith." It is the same with teaching about answered prayer and all faith issues. That is not the way to go! The word says to encourage and build up the faith of believers, not avoid the subject, and save their feelings. I fear for them when they wake up one day and realize what they have been saying! Faith pleases God! Healing is good, and we want healing for everyone. But pleasing God is more important.

 

[ARBITER01]

I could be misunderstanding you some, so please read my comment here through that lens.

Miracles and healings are listed as specific gifts of the Spirit just a few sentences prior to the passage you mention, so I would agree to an extent. But I wonder about passages like this:

The signs of a true apostle were worked out among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles. 2 Corinthians 12:12

You see, some positions of ministry do have specific works of God latched onto them. In this case, Apostles should move in the power of God for miracles along with signs and wonders, otherwise they are likely a false apostle./quote

Maybe I didn't explain myself as well as I should have in my statement. Let me try to break it down further,..

Anyone that is filled with The Spirit will have the gift of tongues operating in their Christian life, but not everyone of us will have a corporate ministry with that gift.

While it is undeniably true that an Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, etc will most likely have the gift of healing operating in their office, that gift can still stand on it's own as a corporate ministry to the body of Christ,..... according to that section of scripture I posted. Same with the working of miracles.

But we also see that miracles and healings are meant to work alongside of the preaching of the gospel to confirm the word as spoken. And I think this may be what you are referencing.

That salvation, first spoken by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard, 4 God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will. Hebrews 2:3-4

heal those in it who are sick, and say to them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’ Luke 10:9/quote

According to Acts, the miracles happened first by GOD, then the word was preached. The miracles were an arresting truth for the gospel to be accepted.

I'm always a bit hesitant to say people should seek the gift and not the Giver. I know some scripture states that we should seek spiritual gifts, and that's a completely biblical stance to take. But I just find it misguided to say I want what Jesus can give me, not Jesus Himself. I feel His power for ministry came more through his connection to the Father than it did through a separate anointing.

Like, the anointing was there yes. But it was maintained and refreshed by His prayer life. Thus why Jesus is always recorded as going off alone to pray. And we see the Apostles continue this in Acts. That's why I started this thread with that specific discussion point in mind.

Those who persist in prayer will find the anointing of God to do the works the Father has given them. Jesus Himself said He could do only what the Father showed Him. Just maintaining that line of communication with the Father, always being alert and ready to serve when called upon and if we slip and miss an opportunity, confess it, receive forgiveness and look for the next.

Ask and ye shall receive.

If we don't ask for specific things from GOD, we don't receive them. Obviously GOD knows our heart and our thoughts and can just give us what were thinking, but He doesn't want to be treated as a mind reader anymore than one of us does.

The anointing we eventually receive upon our heads is to be refreshed daily in fellowship with GOD. It is required so The Holy Spirit will rest upon us in power. You want the power gifts to operate in your life? Well you need The Holy Spirit resting upon you operating them through you. Any other method will be sporadic at best.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

So something I've been pondering and thinking about is healing, the gift of healing, the working of miracles, and why we don't see them as much. Now this is a rather worn out topic, but I hope this discussion will come from a different angle.

In another popular thread here was are discussing this, but that thread is more about are we limited to how many healings. This is more about the practice of healing and maybe the way we go about it as being part of the problem in not seeing as many.

So in the gospels and the book of Acts, we see a number of healings and miracles take place at the hand of Jesus and the Apostles.

Acts 3:1-7
1 One afternoon Peter and John were going up to the temple at the hour of prayer, the ninth hour. 2 And a man who was lame from birth was being carried to the temple gate called Beautiful, where he was put every day to beg from those entering the temple courts. 3 When he saw Peter and John about to enter, he asked them for money.
4 Peter looked directly at him, as did John. “Look at us!” said Peter. 5 So the man gave them his attention, expecting to receive something from them. 6 But Peter said, “Silver or gold I do not have, but what I have I give you: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, get up and walk!”
7 Taking him by the right hand, Peter helped him up, and at once the man’s feet and ankles were made strong.

This is one very good example with a number of considerations I think we should give to this topic.

1. LOCATION. Peter and John were going into the Temple to pray. As they were passing into the gate, this man who was born lame gets their attention. Now the gospels don't mention this man at all. We can probably safely assume that Jesus passed by him at least one time in His earthly walk. So Jesus did not heal this man. Why?
2. TIME. Working within the will of the Father is not just about doing something that we know the Father approves of. It is also about doing those things within the timing of the Father. Mary and Martha pleaded with Jesus to come and heal Lazarus before he died, yet Jesus waited until Lazarus had been dead for 4 whole days. This is just one example of what it means to walk out the will of the Father in both practice and timing. It is the will of the Father that people are healed, but it may not be the right time. What other considerations can we pull from this?
3. PRACTICE. Peter says, "In the name of Jesus... get up and walk!" He does not say a long winded prayer over him. He does not anoint this man with oil and tell him to be blessed on his journey. He then grabs this lame man by the hand and pulls him to his feet. Now any of us who have studied the scripture and have followed the Lord for any length of time should agree that faith without action is dead. (James 2:14-26) God always requires a person to exercise their faith. Always. Even when Jesus healed the lame, He would tell them, "Get up and walk." My hunch tells me that Peter was simply mimicking what he had heard and seen Jesus do when Peter told this lame man to get up and walk.

Also, let's discuss another well known biblical passage on healing.

14 Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick. The Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven.
16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. James 5:14-16

This passage in James seems to offer some validity to the modern practice of anointing with oil and prayer. But I think there are a couple key differences as well.

1. James is writing about church practice, within the body. "Is any one of you" To me this is written specifically for Christians.
2. James is specifically referring to those who are sick, not necessarily those in need of miraculous healing. The two are not always the same.
3. James says the ELDERS (plural) should pray over the sick. Not many churches have multiple elders (pastors/overseers).
4. James says a pre-requisite of this healing is confession of sins. I have definitely not been a member of a church that practiced public confession of sins. The text says, "confess your sins TO EACH OTHER". Perhaps a reason less healing is happening, is because we do not feel it necessary to humble ourselves before other believers and confess the things that we have fallen short in.

Now again, this is a different circumstance and application than the working of miracles as I started with.

Say someone come into the church in a wheelchair. Throughout the service, they become convinced they can be restored and walk again. So they go forward for healing. What follows is what I have personally seen in more than a handful of Charismatic churches, so my experience. The minister will grab some oil, lay a hand on this person, say a 3-5 minute prayer, and then send them on their way.

What I'm saying here, is maybe that practice is wrong. And maybe can use some tweaking. Now certainly, God does not need our help or proper form and etiquette to work His wonders. But He does require faith! Faith not only in the one being ministered to, but faith from the one ministering!

I can imagine Jesus in a similar environment, telling this person in the wheelchair to just get up and walk. Then taking them by the hand and helping them to their feet.

That to me is what we should look like when we minister to others. Now, I'm not saying any of this from a position of authority or even experience. I confess that I myself have fallen prey to the "It's safer and easier to just pray and hope God shows up." But I think it's time to stop that.

How many times do we tell a lame person to walk before it's figured out that it's not God's timing yet? I don't know, I have no idea what that process looks like. I know that reading examples of people like Smith Wigglesworth, he would have to say it a few times, but eventually it would happen. It just takes faith.

Let us pray for our eyes to be open to how the Father is working around us. Let us pray for ears to hear Him when He tells us to go. Let us pray that He would stretch forth His hand and perform signs and wonders through us so that His name would be glorified!

The difference between the First Century church and today's is that the former was more of an "underground" group of fellowships meeting in private homes. This is because if they had public gatherings, the religious leaders would put the kybosh on them. This was also true with the Gentile churches. They were outlawed by Rome, and being Christian was a capital offence at times, especially during the time of Emperor worship. The church did not emerge from the shadows until Constantine made Christianity legal.

So it was during those early times that the gifts of the Spirit flowed. Once Christianity became legal and out of the shadows, the decline happened, as church buildings were used, a profession clergy was put in place and the bishops took authority, making the rank and file passive observers of the performance at the front.

There is an underground church in Muslim countries. Those believers meet at risk to their lives if they are discovered. By the reports I have heard, miracles have taken place in ways we in the West have not seen. The same happened when the church was underground during the Communist Era behind the iron curtain. These Christians were certainly a different "breed" of believers than we see in most Western churches.

Maybe that is a clue to why we don't see healing and miracles as indicated in Scripture that should happen.

 

[Guojing]

I can imagine Jesus in a similar environment, telling this person in the wheelchair to just get up and walk. Then taking them by the hand and helping them to their feet.

How many times do we tell a lame person to walk before it's figured out that it's not God's timing yet? I don't know, I have no idea what that process looks like. I know that reading examples of people like Smith Wigglesworth, he would have to say it a few times, but eventually it would happen. It just takes faith.

Instead of using the term miracles, it might be better to use the term signs instead.

Then you can ask yourself these questions:

1. What were the role of signs in scripture? Who was it for, and what were they trying to accomplish?
2. So if God does provide a sign for today, does it fit what scripture explained in question 1?

You will realized scripture gives you plenty of illustrations for your 1st question, thus allowing you to easily understand the 2nd question.

For example, the resurrection of Lazarus is a very good illustration (John 20:30-31)

1. Why did Jesus waited until 4 days, before raising him from the dead?
2. Why did Jesus wept?
3. How did Israel's leaders respond to that sign?

 

[jiminpa]

Instead of using the term miracles, it might be better to use the term signs instead.

Then you can ask yourself these questions:

1. What were the role of signs in scripture? Who was it for, and what were they trying to accomplish?
2. So if God does provide a sign for today, does it fit what scripture explained in question 1?

You will realized scripture gives you plenty of illustrations for your 1st question, thus allowing you to easily understand the 2nd question.

For example, the resurrection of Lazarus is a very good illustration (John 20:30-31)

1. Why did Jesus waited until 4 days, before raising him from the dead?
2. Why did Jesus wept?
3. How did Israel's leaders respond to that sign?

That is cessationist misdirection. Miracles can act as a sign, but they can also just be a gift to someone in need.

Notice that with cessationism comes manipulation tactics.

 

[Guojing]

That is cessationist misdirection. Miracles can act as a sign, but they can also just be a gift to someone in need.

Notice that with cessationism comes manipulation tactics.

Yes, all signs are miracles but not all miracles are signs. I have said this many times before.

But you do agree that, from Matthew 10:5-8, Luke 7:18-23 and John 20:30-31, the majority, if not all, of Jesus's miracles are signs meant for the nation of Israel?

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I believe it comes down to what you said about prayer and being busy. In order to have the knowledge of God regarding healing one must consistently pray. But not only pray but then take steps to apply that knowledge. We can know we should pray for the sick, but how many times do we take the step of faith and do it?

The reason for so few miracles is people don't pray as often as they should. If they do pray, they are often afraid to act.

I believe in healing, have seen it occur, so I have the knowledge of healing, but often I fear to act, a) due firstly to not knowing what the person will think (fear of man), b) being unsure if my prayer will be answered (lack of faith).

In short human weakness can stop the miraculous.