The New and Improved No-Straw-Man Challenge

[John Mullally]

God doesn’t need to direct anyone to do evil. He just takes away peace. .

And another, a red horse, went out; and to him who sat on it, it was granted to take peace from the earth, and that men would slay one another; and a great sword was given to him.
— Revelation 6:4

God does not desire people sin or do evil - but when the rebellion persists long enough God allows all hell to breaking loose. That is termed judgement and it is not God's desire.

1 Timothy 2:1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.​

 

[bling]

Once again, can God intervene to stop any evil act at any given time?

You say: "evil act", but does that include in, "evil thought" in your thinking?
I would say: "Man has the free will ability to think and desire to do evil and God would allow it, but not like it."

 

[BNR32FAN]

Some verses to ponder.

Man’s steps are ordained by the LORD,
How then can man understand his way?
— Proverbs 20:24

I know, O LORD, that a man’s way is not in himself,
Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps.
— Jeremiah 10:23

The plans of the heart belong to man,
But the answer of the tongue is from the LORD.
— Proverbs 16:1

But if he did not lie in wait for him, but God let him fall into his hand, then I will appoint you a place to which he may flee.
— Exodus 21:13

The lot is cast into the lap,
But its every decision is from the LORD.
— Proverbs 16:33

You may want to reread Job 1-2.

Do you know what a proverb is? The phrase “ it’s raining cats & dogs” is a proverb. A proverb is an idiom or a figure of speech that is not necessarily accurate according to the wording.

So let’s do this, let’s apply your interpretation of these verses to a situation in the scriptures. Like Romans 2:4-5 for example.

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2‬:‭4‬-‭5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So please explain to me what is going on here. Is God leading these people to repentance, and if He is how is it that they are still refusing to repent?

 

[Hammster]

God does not desire people sin or do evil - but when the rebellion persists long enough God allows all hell to breaking loose. That is termed judgement and it is not God's desire.

1 Timothy 2:1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.​

Why would you pray that unless you want God to intervene?

 

[Hammster]

You say: "evil act", but does that include in, "evil thought" in your thinking?
I would say: "Man has the free will ability to think and desire to do evil and God would allow it, but not like it."

Since you chose not to answer a question I didn’t ask, I’ll see if I can figure it out. You would say no, God could intervene, but won’t. Is that correct?

 

[Grip Docility]

Why would you pray that unless you want God to intervene?

James 4:2 ……You do not have because you do not ask God.

 

[Hammster]

Do you know what a proverb is? The phrase “ it’s raining cats & dogs” is a proverb. A proverb is an idiom or a figure of speech that is not necessarily accurate according to the wording.

You do see that they weren’t all proverbs, right?

So let’s do this, let’s apply your interpretation of these verses to a situation in the scriptures. Like Romans 2:4-5 for example.

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2‬:‭4‬-‭5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So please explain to me what is going on here. Is God leading these people to repentance, and if He is how is it that they are still refusing to repent?

God is being kind and leaving them to their sinful choices.

 

[Hammster]

James 4:2 ……You do not have because you do not ask God.

That’s not relevant the the discussion John and I are having. There’s a context to the question.

 

[Grip Docility]

Why would you pray that unless you want God to intervene?

That’s not relevant the the discussion John and I are having. There’s a context to the question.

James 4:2 ……You do not have because you do not ask God.

1 Timothy 2:1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time

 

[Hammster]

1 Timothy 2:1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time

There’s still a context in a continuing discussion between John and I. I wanted to know why he would pray that.

 

[Grip Docility]

There’s still a context in a continuing discussion between John and I. I wanted to know why he would pray that.

His Context is correct. He is dismembering a "PreText" with his context.

 

[Grip Docility]

You may want to reread Job 1-2.

Job 1 and 2....

Job 1 (Job 1:22 In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing.)

Spoiler

Job 1

Satan’s First Test of Job​

6 One day the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan[b] also came with them. 7 The Lord asked Satan, “Where have you come from?”

Satan is where, at this council? He's returned from earth and is on good speaking terms with God. Further more, Satan is looking to "TEMPT" Job. (James 1:13) expresses that God DOES not tempt. Let's think this through. God does TEST Character, for sure (Genesis 22:1) So, the idea that God by Proxy is TEMPTING JOB, is completely against God's Character. God isn't the origin of Evil, nor a bringer of evil, so we know that Satan has some unique leverage in this matter.

1: Satan is currently able to access Heaven.
2: Satan is lying to God, as if what he is doing to Job is a "good" thing.
3: Satan assumes that his purpose, to God, is to "TEMP/TEST" Job and all of creation, just like He did to EVE in the Garden of Eden. But think about the scriptural entrance to the matter. Satan is called out, apart from the "son's of God". He's a pretty powerful fellow in this snapshot, having a very HIGH position of authority in heaven. By now, we know that Satan is a HIGH angel of God and he has the POWER of DEATH. (Hebrews 2:14)
4: Satan doesn't realize WHO is actually being tested. (Job 41 in it's entirety, reveals just WHO is being TESTED)... and yet, Job 41 is buried within the pages of some of the most eloquent, deep and diverse Philosophy ever written. Satan most likely had no idea, at the time, that Leviathan was a reference to him.
5: God is, out of Grace, allowing Satan to uphold his self usurped position of Power, as Death and the Tempter.
6: God is most angry with Satan for bringing Death into His creation.
7: Satan is Proud and.. I can't believe this actually transpired within his prideful mind... UNDERESTIMATED GOD!

“From roaming through the earth,” Satan answered Him, “and walking around on it.”

This is no laughing matter! At this moment, we see the words of a "Self Proclaimed god". (2 Corinthians 4:4)(Matthew 4:8)(Acts 7:53)(John 16:11)
I threw a verse in there that may seem out of place. It's in Acts and echo's a verse in Galatians. ... But, let's step aside from that verse, for a moment. Let's look square in the eyes of a biblical fact. GOD was the RULER of ALL CREATION, and had given FREE DOMINION over the entire Earth to Adam and Eve! (Genesis 1:26-28) Yet, we see that Satan deceived Eve (2 Corinthians 11:3) ... and know this... Adam and Eve were like CHILDREN, with the MOST LOVING FATHER in ALL of EXSISTANCE! Satan stole candy from a baby, so to speak! God wasn't angry with Adam or Eve! God knew WHO committed the ORIGONAL SIN! Satan attempted to appear as if he was this great, righteous, benevolent being, assisting God, by sorting the righteous from the wicked! Satan was storing up an OCEAN of human souls. Each soul that Satan claimed as a result of his judgment broke GOD'S Heart! (John 11:35)

8 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? No one else on earth is like him, a man of perfect integrity, who fears God and turns away from evil.”

Let's really think about God's words to Satan. God points Satan to a Human that Believes in God's Utter Benevolent Goodness! God then states that Job "Fears God and Turns away from Evil". This was a very tense moment, because Satan is standing there, possibly next to God, and attempting to appear RIGHTEOUS. That statement about Evil must have made the old goat sweat!

9 Satan answered the Lord, “Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 Haven’t You placed a hedge around him, his household, and everything he owns? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land.

Satan is like the antithesis of an Advocate, of sorts! Satan is mediating between God and Mankind! Dollars to Donuts, he's more of a prosecution attorney! (Revelation 12:10) He is literally making a case... AGAINST Job! Yup! His prosecution is that God has blessed Job, but if God would take away his material possessions, Job will reveal that he hates God and is only happy because of the needs of his "belly" being met.

11 But stretch out Your hand and strike everything he owns, and he will surely curse You to Your face.”

Satan has to make a divine case as to why God should let Satan take Jobs stuff away. Satan is pretending to serve God and thinks he is doing so with that imbued by God, positional power. In Eden, it's called a curse to the reader, but to Satan, that POWER of Death was the desire of his heart! Scripture won't let us down on that assertion, but for now... we will press forward. Satan is given permission to DESTROY, which Satan thinks he has tricked God into allowing.

12 “Very well,” the Lord told Satan, “everything he owns is in your power. However, you must not lay a hand on Job himself.” So Satan left the Lord’s presence

God gives Satan marching orders, and the Prosecution Attorney of all mankind leaves the Heavenly dimension, then heads towards Job.

Job 2

3 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? No one else on earth is like him, a man of perfect integrity, who fears God and turns away from evil. He still retains his integrity, even though you incited Me against him, to destroy him without just cause.”

Still doubting the direction we are headed? Does it not fall into place as God says; "THOUGH you INCITED Me against him, without JUST CAUSE"? The Stone Law isn't in place, yet. Therefore, Satan is acting without written documents that he can prosecute with, yet God deems Satan's Legal Case and Actions against Job, utterly void of Justice. God is most likely angry at and grieved by Satan, at this moment.

 

[Hammster]

His Context is correct. He is dismembering a "PreText" with his context.

I asked him a personal question.

 

[Hammster]

Job 1 and 2....

Job 1 (Job 1:22 In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing.)

Spoiler

Job 1

Satan’s First Test of Job​

Satan is where, at this council? He's returned from earth and is on good speaking terms with God. Further more, Satan is looking to "TEMPT" Job. (James 1:13) expresses that God DOES not tempt. Let's think this through. God does TEST Character, for sure (Genesis 22:1) So, the idea that God by Proxy is TEMPTING JOB, is completely against God's Character. God isn't the origin of Evil, nor a bringer of evil, so we know that Satan has some unique leverage in this matter.

1: Satan is currently able to access Heaven.
2: Satan is lying to God, as if what he is doing to Job is a "good" thing.
3: Satan assumes that his purpose, to God, is to "TEMP/TEST" Job and all of creation, just like He did to EVE in the Garden of Eden. But think about the scriptural entrance to the matter. Satan is called out, apart from the "son's of God". He's a pretty powerful fellow in this snapshot, having a very HIGH position of authority in heaven. By now, we know that Satan is a HIGH angel of God and he has the POWER of DEATH. (Hebrews 2:14)
4: Satan doesn't realize WHO is actually being tested. (Job 41 in it's entirety, reveals just WHO is being TESTED)... and yet, Job 41 is buried within the pages of some of the most eloquent, deep and diverse Philosophy ever written. Satan most likely had no idea, at the time, that Leviathan was a reference to him.
5: God is, out of Grace, allowing Satan to uphold his self usurped position of Power, as Death and the Tempter.
6: God is most angry with Satan for bringing Death into His creation.
7: Satan is Proud and.. I can't believe this actually transpired within his prideful mind... UNDERESTIMATED GOD!


This is no laughing matter! At this moment, we see the words of a "Self Proclaimed god". (2 Corinthians 4:4)(Matthew 4:8)(Acts 7:53)(John 16:11)
I threw a verse in there that may seem out of place. It's in Acts and echo's a verse in Galatians. ... But, let's step aside from that verse, for a moment. Let's look square in the eyes of a biblical fact. GOD was the RULER of ALL CREATION, and had given FREE DOMINION over the entire Earth to Adam and Eve! (Genesis 1:26-28) Yet, we see that Satan deceived Eve (2 Corinthians 11:3) ... and know this... Adam and Eve were like CHILDREN, with the MOST LOVING FATHER in ALL of EXSISTANCE! Satan stole candy from a baby, so to speak! God wasn't angry with Adam or Eve! God knew WHO committed the ORIGONAL SIN! Satan attempted to appear as if he was this great, righteous, benevolent being, assisting God, by sorting the righteous from the wicked! Satan was storing up an OCEAN of human souls. Each soul that Satan claimed as a result of his judgment broke GOD'S Heart! (John 11:35)


Let's really think about God's words to Satan. God points Satan to a Human that Believes in God's Utter Benevolent Goodness! God then states that Job "Fears God and Turns away from Evil". This was a very tense moment, because Satan is standing there, possibly next to God, and attempting to appear RIGHTEOUS. That statement about Evil must have made the old goat sweat!


Satan is like the antithesis of an Advocate, of sorts! Satan is mediating between God and Mankind! Dollars to Donuts, he's more of a prosecution attorney! (Revelation 12:10) He is literally making a case... AGAINST Job! Yup! His prosecution is that God has blessed Job, but if God would take away his material possessions, Job will reveal that he hates God and is only happy because of the needs of his "belly" being met.


Satan has to make a divine case as to why God should let Satan take Jobs stuff away. Satan is pretending to serve God and thinks he is doing so with that imbued by God, positional power. In Eden, it's called a curse to the reader, but to Satan, that POWER of Death was the desire of his heart! Scripture won't let us down on that assertion, but for now... we will press forward. Satan is given permission to DESTROY, which Satan thinks he has tricked God into allowing.


God gives Satan marching orders, and the Prosecution Attorney of all mankind leaves the Heavenly dimension, then heads towards Job.

Job 2



Still doubting the direction we are headed? Does it not fall into place as God says; "THOUGH you INCITED Me against him, without JUST CAUSE"? The Stone Law isn't in place, yet. Therefore, Satan is acting without written documents that he can prosecute with, yet God deems Satan's Legal Case and Actions against Job, utterly void of Justice. God is most likely angry at and grieved by Satan, at this moment.

I’ll assume you know why I brought up Job 1 and 2. Here’s the pertinent part in response to John’s post.

Then the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him.” So Satan departed from the presence of the LORD.
— Job 1:12

 

[Grip Docility]

I’ll assume you know why I brought up Job 1 and 2. Here’s the pertinent part in response to John’s post.

Then the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him.” So Satan departed from the presence of the LORD.
— Job 1:12

Job 2:3 Then the Lord said to Satan, ..... even though you incited Me against him, to destroy him without just cause.” <-

 

[Hammster]

3 Then the Lord said to Satan, ..... even though you incited Me against him, to destroy him without just cause.” <-

Yes. That came after, under God’s direction.

 

[Grip Docility]

I asked him a personal question.

If it was in debate... I went backwards. If it was in PM, I don't want to know.

 

[Grip Docility]

Yes. That came after, under God’s direction.

No. Satan Had Authority in Heaven and God was responding to Satan's Authority.

Job 2:3 Then the Lord said to Satan, ..... even though you incited Me against him, to destroy him without just cause.” <- I anticipated what you would claim and left the arrow blank.

Satan INCITED GOD... God said so. God then talks to Satan as if Satan is an attorney that gave a Judge, a falsified case.

God isn't Testing Job. God declared Job Righteous. Satan had Job on his heart, out of malice to Job, for Believing in God's Goodness. Have you seen my servant Job? is identical to "9 But the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”"

As if God didn't know where Adam was... Same for Job... God isn't Testing Job. God is Testing Satan.

 

[Hammster]

If it was in debate... I went backwards. If it was in PM, I don't want to know.

It’s in this thread.

 

[Hammster]

No. Satan Had Authority in Heaven and God was responding to Satan's Authority.

Job 2:3 Then the Lord said to Satan, ..... even though you incited Me against him, to destroy him without just cause.” <- I anticipated what you would claim and left the arrow blank.

Satan INCITED GOD... God said so. God then talks to Satan as if Satan is an attorney that gave a Judge, a falsified case.

Yes, after God said

“Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him.”