The Church's relationship with the Muslims

[Snowbunny]

I have been talking to Muslims and other non-Christians in the non-Christian section for a little while on this website and I was interested in what the Church has to say about them... when I came across this article:

Is the Catholic Catechism's view
on the Muslim god wrong?​

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 841, Muslims together with the Catholics, "adore the one, merciful God." This cannot be true. The Muslims and Catholics do not adore the same God. In order to provide sufficient context for the quote from the Catechism, I have cited 2 paragraphs before and after paragraph 841.​

• 839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."[325] The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,[326] "the first to hear the Word of God."[327] The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",[328] "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."[329] ​
• 840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.
• 841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."[330]
• 842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race: All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .[331]
• 843 "The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as 'a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.'

If the Catholic Church is stating in paragraph 841 above, in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, that there are those within the Muslim community who may find salvation by becoming Christians and not remaining Muslims, then I would agree. But, it does not appear to be saying this.
What is disturbing is the statement that "together with us they [Muslims] adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." So, Catholics and Muslims both "adore the one, merciful God." Quite frankly, it would seem that the Roman Catholic church has a faulty understanding of the God of Islam.
Islam acknowledges that it serves the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. But in so doing it is stating that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, were Muslims! Furthermore, Islam denies that God is a Trinity.

• "They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them," (Quran 5:73, Yusufali).
• "They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no Allah save the One Allah. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve," (Quran 5:73, Pickthal). See Chapter five of Online version of Quran.

Since the Trinity is the true biblical doctrine of God, how can the Muslims who deny the Trinity "adore the one, merciful God"? They cannot. Furthermore, in Christianity, Jesus is divine in nature (John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9). Yet, the Quran states that Jesus is not divine:

• "They indeed have disbelieved who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. Say: Who then can do aught against Allah, if He had willed to destroy the Messiah son of Mary, and his mother and everyone on earth? Allah's is the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them. He createth what He will. And Allah is Able to do all things," (Quran 5:17, Pickthal).
• "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!" (Quran 5:30, Pickthal)

Obviously, the Muslims do not adore the one true merciful God because they serve a false god. They deny the Trinity and the deity of Christ. Quite simply, they deny the true God and are not capable of adoring the true God as long as they hold to the false teachings of Islam. Therefore the paragraph in the CCC cannot be correct.

"The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." (CCC 841).
​

______________
1. CCC means Catechism of the Catholic Church. It is an official Catechism released by the Roman Catholic church. "This catechism aims at presenting an organic synthesis of the essential and fundamental contents of Catholic doctrine." - Source

​

What do you guys think about this?

I think that the author maybe has a point about the facts... that they don't believe in God as we do, but I also think that his underlying message is different than the Vatican's and that the Vatican's is in line with the teachings of Jesus. What I mean is that I think the Vatican said this because they recognize it is important to look at our similarities and treat each other like we are all in the same community than look at each other as enemies and drastically different... if that makes sense...

 

[lionroar0]

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."[330]

It seems to me that he is trying to say that Muslims like Jews accept God the Father, The Creator but not Jesus as God. Neither one accepts Jesus as God. I have not read the quoran but I would assmue that according to it they are the chosen people of God. Just like the Jews are the chosen people of God and Christians are chosen because we have been adopted.

I think he is looking at similarites rather then the differences.

Peace

 

[SecretOfFatima]

I have been talking to Muslims and other non-Christians in the non-Christian section for a little while on this website and I was interested in what the Church has to say about them... when I came across this article:

Is the Catholic Catechism's view
on the Muslim god wrong?​

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 841, Muslims together with the Catholics, "adore the one, merciful God." This cannot be true. The Muslims and Catholics do not adore the same God. In order to provide sufficient context for the quote from the Catechism, I have cited 2 paragraphs before and after paragraph 841.​

• 839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."[325] The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,[326] "the first to hear the Word of God."[327] The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",[328] "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."[329] ​
• 840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.
• 841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."[330]
• 842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race: All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .[331]
• 843 "The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as 'a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.'

If the Catholic Church is stating in paragraph 841 above, in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, that there are those within the Muslim community who may find salvation by becoming Christians and not remaining Muslims, then I would agree. But, it does not appear to be saying this.
What is disturbing is the statement that "together with us they [Muslims] adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." So, Catholics and Muslims both "adore the one, merciful God." Quite frankly, it would seem that the Roman Catholic church has a faulty understanding of the God of Islam.
Islam acknowledges that it serves the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. But in so doing it is stating that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, were Muslims! Furthermore, Islam denies that God is a Trinity.

• "They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them," (Quran 5:73, Yusufali).
• "They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no Allah save the One Allah. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve," (Quran 5:73, Pickthal). See Chapter five of Online version of Quran.

Since the Trinity is the true biblical doctrine of God, how can the Muslims who deny the Trinity "adore the one, merciful God"? They cannot. Furthermore, in Christianity, Jesus is divine in nature (John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9). Yet, the Quran states that Jesus is not divine:

• "They indeed have disbelieved who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. Say: Who then can do aught against Allah, if He had willed to destroy the Messiah son of Mary, and his mother and everyone on earth? Allah's is the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them. He createth what He will. And Allah is Able to do all things," (Quran 5:17, Pickthal).
• "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!" (Quran 5:30, Pickthal)

Obviously, the Muslims do not adore the one true merciful God because they serve a false god. They deny the Trinity and the deity of Christ. Quite simply, they deny the true God and are not capable of adoring the true God as long as they hold to the false teachings of Islam. Therefore the paragraph in the CCC cannot be correct.

"The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." (CCC 841).
​

______________
1. CCC means Catechism of the Catholic Church. It is an official Catechism released by the Roman Catholic church. "This catechism aims at presenting an organic synthesis of the essential and fundamental contents of Catholic doctrine." - Source

​

What do you guys think about this?

I think that the author maybe has a point about the facts... that they don't believe in God as we do, but I also think that his underlying message is different than the Vatican's and that the Vatican's is in line with the teachings of Jesus. What I mean is that I think the Vatican said this because they recognize it is important to look at our similarities and treat each other like we are all in the same community than look at each other as enemies and drastically different... if that makes sense...

Thank you for such an interesting post...

Having visited the site, I crawled throw the site and immediately notice a bible passage which did not add up to the teachings of our catholic faith, from experience this normally indicates someone is either missing the point or is taking something out of context... here is the passage ". . . you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition . . . (Matt. 15:6)." so i grabbed my Portuguese bible and HAHA it looks like the interpretation of someone who may not even be a catholic and has taken the text also out of context, because of this conclusion a series of questions your post had raised in my head have now cleared...
I trust the teaching of the catholic faith even if i don't always understand them...

Funny enough, GOD does answer our questions and he guide me to the following post with the exact same point
http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showre...RDER_BY_TXT=ORDER+BY+ReplyDate+DESC&start_at=



...anyway this is an area which interests me very much... and for a long time i have tried to understand how on earth GOD is going to unity us all, in particular with our Muslims brothers... personally i believe Our Blessed Heavenly Mother Mary is the key to the hearts of the Muslims as is for us Catholics... if you read the link above then you will have a better understanding of what i mean.


Could the apparitions of Fatima change their hearts like it did with that Muslim Guy that tried to assassinate the pope back in the anniversary of the apparitions of Fatima in the 13May1981 (as per the 3rd secret of Fatima)?

... the interesting thing is that Fatima suppose to be the name of the daughter of the Muslim god.
Could this also open their hearts for them to find out what the bible teach us and if this is something actually from GOD?

(the only problem i see here is the different interpretations from the different Christian groups, which unfortunately makes the Christian faith a divided kingdom, unless GOD can guide those souls to the real teachings of the catholic faith, that is why is so important that we Catholics understand the history of the church and the bible, things like what is the Jewish Canon, which took place around the year 100 after Christ where the catholic books which are not found in
the protestant bibles were removed due to the criteria used then to discern what should be the books of the old testament, basically they have the books found in the OT protestant bible and call it Tannak (they don't believe in the new testament books)...

(Now about Muslim faith, this is my understanding)
The Muslims faith appeared later on and they claim that the original bible books which contain the real words of god have been lost over the centuries, hence they suppose to have the correct words of god given to them later on in the Quran... so for example their version of the old testament is not the same as the one, the Jews, the protestants or the Catholics have, in the Quran it also talks about Christians as the people of the book (i think), as far as i understand there are a lot of restrictions in what Muslims can actually do, for example someone cannot change their faith, etc, etc...


But here is something very interesting, later on(1949) the Jews found the Dead sea scrolls in a series of caves near a place called QURAM (lets hope the Muslims mis-spell when they search for the word QURAN in Google and maybe find QURAM instead to see if they come to realize the bible found in the QURAM area (near the dead sea) is the same as the bible translation we already had), the caves contained a series of scrolls dated back possibly from around the year 200BC or 100BC, however these caves had been buried from around the year 70AC, these scrolls were in Hebrew, unlike the original scriptures accepted by the catholic church which dated back from a translation in the year 200BC (king of Egypt Ptolemy II Philadelphus created the famous library of Alexandria), that translation into Greek by the 70 rabies that the king hired to translate the OT books of the bible is best know as the Septuagint (Latin word for 70).

My question, Do Muslims actually know about these findings at QURAM(of these copy of the bible)?
(The Jews scientists have hold of these scrolls (which contain the extra books found in the catholic bible), but so did the Jews know of their existence since earlier ages when they decided to remove them as they did not believe they were inspired, unlike we Catholics believed they were inspired... this decision was taken by the Jewish canon (100AC)).

We Catholics and the Jews have an explanation in our history of these facts (without asking a protestant what their views are), I wonder how Muslims explain these findings?

I hope this is helpful, but be careful with my post, this is only my understanding, you better check it against official sources.

GOD help us discern the works of the enemy.


Jesus is LORD






May The LORD bless you
and keep you;
May the LORD make his face shine upon you
and be gracious to you;
May the LORD turn his face toward you
and give you peace.

 

[QuantaCura]

What do you guys think about this?

I think that the author maybe has a point about the facts... that they don't believe in God as we do, but I also think that his underlying message is different than the Vatican's and that the Vatican's is in line with the teachings of Jesus. What I mean is that I think the Vatican said this because they recognize it is important to look at our similarities and treat each other like we are all in the same community than look at each other as enemies and drastically different... if that makes sense...

Remember when St. Paul comes across the pagans with the altar to the one God (Acts 17:23) ? He affirms this as the true God, because they were attempting to worship the one God who is Creator and Ruler of the universe. The same goes for modern Muslim people. They are trying to worship the one God, they just haven't had their faith enlightened and perfected with the Gospel yet.

For further reading, I suggest Hillaire Belloc's "Great Heresies" which explains how Islam is a Catholic heresy--usually we say heretics worship the same God, just erroneously. Here is the appropriate chapter:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/HOMELIBR/HERESY4.TXT

 

[PolycarpII]

They do worship the same God as us. They are Monotheistic, they are decendants of Abraham, and these play into there worship of the one true God. Infact, I will argue that all religions reach out to the same God. The difference is that Christianity is revealed through Christ who alone is the way to salvation. Other religions try to reach out to God themselves, but Christianity is the only religion where God reched down to us.

 

[QuantaCura]

The Catechism of St. Pius X also says Muslims worship the true God:

12 Q. Who are infidels?

A. Infidels are those who have not been baptised and do not believe in Jesus Christ, because they either believe in and worship false gods as idolaters do, or though admitting one true God, they do not believe in the Messiah, neither as already come in the Person of Jesus Christ, nor as to come; for instance, Mohammedans and the like.

Notice, they are specifically distinguished from those who worship false gods.

 

[Cecilia]

Very interesting. Hmm..

 

[plmarquette]

here is a link comparing Islam and Christianity
http://www.answering-islam.org/Books/Zwemer/God/index.htm

the biggest problem is that their teachings conflict with the teaching of the church (what is written in the bible and the torah )
1. Jesus was an exalted man , not the son of God
2. Jesus did not die on the cross -Judas was placed there & Jesus spared
3. the teachings of Mohammed are the most recent & nullify words spoken previously by other prophets ( I am the same , change not ; Jesus , the same today , yesterday and forever Heb 13.8)

 

[DiaconoGuillermo]

To understand pp 841 it is useful to read the underlying documents from Vatican II. I have, below, quoted the pertinent portions of Lumen Gentium and Nostra Aetate.

I think it is very evident from these documents that we, as Catholics should have, NO!, must have a profound respect for the truths discovered by all true seekers. This is especially obvious in Nostra Aetate when it says:

"The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. "

I think it is fairly clear from these two documents, both from the general considerations and specific statements, the muslems worship the true God who is the good, kind, just, merciful Creator of all mankind. And while they have recognized God they have yet to discern much in the nature of God. eg The Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and Jesus as the human incarnation of the Son of God. Rather than condemning them for the lack of this discernment we should pray that they might come to it, our understanding of be increased and that we have the strength to live our lives so as to manifest it to the world.

Having spent some brief time in Turkey in the company of devout muslem as a guide I came to the realization that we have a very distorted idea as to what they are through a very unfortunate twist of language. When we hear a muslem say; "There is no god but Allah!" we make the assumption that they are saying, particularly to Christians, that your God is not god. And there in is the problem. In most western languages there is no commonly used collective for god(s) except god with a lower case "g". Or conversely there is no commonly used noun for "God" except "God" with an upper case "G". In Arabic this confusion does not exist. I would suggest that the better translation into English would be "There is no god except God" or perhaps better yet, though rather stilted "There is no true deity except God."

As a final thought, many Christian Arabs use the appellation "Allah" when referring to God.

May God (Allah) bless all the children of the book.

DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
LUMEN GENTIUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HOLINESS?POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964​

Chapter II: ON THE PEOPLE OF GOD​

16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126); But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the muslems (Mohamedans) , who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, "Preach the Gospel to every creature",(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.​

DECLARATION ON
THE RELATION OF THE CHURCH TO NON-CHRISTIAN RELIGIONS
NOSTRA AETATE
PROCLAIMED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI?ON OCTOBER 28, 1965​

1. In our time, when day by day mankind is being drawn closer together, and the ties between different peoples are becoming stronger, the Church examines more closely he relationship to non- Christian religions. In her task of promoting unity and love among men, indeed among nations, she considers above all in this declaration what men have in common and what draws them to fellowship.

One is the community of all peoples, one their origin, for God made the whole human race to live over the face of the earth.(1) One also is their final goal, God. His providence, His manifestations of goodness, His saving design extend to all men,(2) until that time when the elect will be united in the Holy City, the city ablaze with the glory of God, where the nations will walk in His light.(3)

Men expect from the various religions answers to the unsolved riddles of the human condition, which today, even as in former times, deeply stir the hearts of men: What is man? What is the meaning, the aim of our life? What is moral good, what sin? Whence suffering and what purpose does it serve? Which is the road to true happiness? What are death, judgment and retribution after death? What, finally, is that ultimate inexpressible mystery which encompasses our existence: whence do we come, and where are we going?

2. From ancient times down to the present, there is found among various peoples a certain perception of that hidden power which hovers over the course of things and over the events of human history; at times some indeed have come to the recognition of a Supreme Being, or even of a Father. This perception and recognition penetrates their lives with a profound religious sense.

Religions, however, that are bound up with an advanced culture have struggled to answer the same questions by means of more refined concepts and a more developed language. Thus in Hinduism, men contemplate the divine mystery and express it through an inexhaustible abundance of myths and through searching philosophical inquiry. They seek freedom from the anguish of our human condition either through ascetical practices or profound meditation or a flight to God with love and trust. Again, Buddhism, in its various forms, realizes the radical insufficiency of this changeable world; it teaches a way by which men, in a devout and confident spirit, may be able either to acquire the state of perfect liberation, or attain, by their own efforts or through higher help, supreme illumination. Likewise, other religions found everywhere try to counter the restlessness of the human heart, each in its own manner, by proposing "ways," comprising teachings, rules of life, and sacred rites. The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. Indeed, she proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ "the way, the truth, and the life" (John 14:6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself.(4)

The Church, therefore, exhorts her sons, that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life, they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men.

3. The Church regards with esteem also the muslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and muslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom.​

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Hi DiaconoGuillermo:

Greetings and welcome to OBOB


Are you able to comment on the subject of henotheism and how it would apply in our Catholic relations with Muslims? vbmenu_register("postmenu_34968192", true);

 

[AetheriusLamia]

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

It is saying that God has a plan for Muslims regarding their salvation, although we do not know precisely what it is. First note that we do not know what happens to our brothers when they die; it is foolish to assume that God's plan necessarily ends with our deaths (for God can do all things). Then recall the story in one of the Gospels about the blind man whom Jesus heals. Jesus asks him, "Do you acknowledge the son of Man?" or something like that. And the guy responds, "Show him to me, Lord, that I may know and worship him." I think it will be something similar with Muslims, maybe even agnostics who desire and seek the truth but are similarly blinded.

Islam acknowledges that it serves the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. But in so doing it is stating that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, were Muslims!

By their definition, they are correct. Note that a Muslim is simply one who is obedient to God (according to their definition.) So Mary was a Muslim as well as Abraham (see the Catechism's teachings regarding Mary's perfect example of obedience.) Realize that words like "Muslim" are simply descriptive.

Furthermore, Islam denies that God is a Trinity.
"They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them," (Quran 5:73, Yusufali).

They are not truly denying the Mystery of the Trinity; rather, they are denying their misconception of it. If I were to hear someone talking about elephants, and I thought an elephant was a polka-dotted whale with six legs, I would go around saying the idea of elephants is false. I'm not really denying the elephant as it exists, though -- how could I, when I have no knowledge of it? Rather, I'm denying the idea of a polka-dotted whale with six legs.

Similarly, the Church teaches that your knowledge limits the graveness of your sin, since God is just. For example, concerning the sin of masturbation, the Catechism teaches,

To form an equitable judgment about the subjects' moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.

We don't execute an insane person guilty of murder; we put him in a hospital, and so on.

To get back on topic, they deny this misconception of the Trinity -- that there are three gods, or two (separate) things level with God, because they proclaim what the Church proclaims:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PC.HTM

42 God transcends all creatures. We must therefore continually purify our language of everything in it that is limited, imagebound or imperfect, if we are not to confuse our image of God --"the inexpressible, the incomprehensible, the invisible, the ungraspable"-- with our human representations.16 Our human words always fall short of the mystery of God.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PD.HTM

44 Man is by nature and vocation a religious being. Coming from God, going toward God, man lives a fully human life only if he freely lives by his bond with God.

(Muslims call this 'being Muslim', being obedient to God's will.)

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P16.HTM

I. "I BELIEVE IN ONE GOD"

200 These are the words with which the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed begins. the confession of God's oneness, which has its roots in the divine revelation of the Old Covenant, is inseparable from the profession of God's existence and is equally fundamental. God is unique; there is only one God: "The Christian faith confesses that God is one in nature, substance and essence."3

This is what Muslims mean when they say, as you quoted,

They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no Allah save the One Allah. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve," (Quran 5:73, Pickthal). See Chapter five of Online version of Quran.

I pray this post helps, and that I have spoken the truth.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Let us keep in mind, that the road block to many people becoming Christians, isn't their unwillingness to accept the faith, but rather, their experience with us Christians.

We have been in many cases, the road block that prevents non-Christians from seeing Christ in us.

Jim

 

[Quaero]

Forgive me if I have missed something glaringly obvious, but don't Muslims, Christians and Jews all worship the same God - The God of Abraham?

 

[QuantaCura]

Forgive me if I have missed something glaringly obvious, but don't Muslims, Christians and Jews all worship the same God - The God of Abraham?

Yes, which is what the Catechism is stating. Some people don't want to believe that is the case with Muslims because they equate believing in the same God with their religion being equally good, true, and salvific (which is not what it means). Second, some Muslims in the news do evil things in the name of God so that gives people a natural aversion to who's will they claim to be acting on.

Basically, the Catholic position has always been that if you acknowledge one uncreated God, creator of all else then you acknowledge the one Creator (since this much can be known without access to divine revelation). Idolators and polytheists do not.

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

Forgive me if I have missed something glaringly obvious, but don't Muslims, Christians and Jews all worship the same God - The God of Abraham?

I gotta admit, this is one Catechism section I have difficulty with, and I'm about as rigid a Catholic as you'll meet.

On one hand, when you phrase it like that - "The God of Abraham" - then you could say that we worship the same God. But on the other hand, our understanding of who and what God is is so radically different from theirs that you could make the asrgument that we really DON'T worship the same God.

 

[Budgie]

Hi,
I think the Muslims believe in a Creator, Allah who could be compared to Yahweh in the Old Testament or God the Father in the New Testament. However, they do not believe that Christ is the Son of God and only a prophet lesser than Mohamed. I think Christians would agree that the revelation of the Quran is a false revelation and that Mohamed is also a false prophet. However, there are elements of truth in the Quran as it took some ideas from the Old and New Testaments as it grew up in a similar area. So it's shades of grey rather than black and white. There could be elements of truth in every religion as we are able to discern some moral laws through Natural Revelation and the use of reason (St. Thomas Aquinas). For example, marrying a virgin is a law based on natural revelation. However, having only one spouse is based on divine revelation and comes from our holy books.

Islam alongside Christianity and Judaism is a monotheistic religion. Sometimes Islam is considered to be our largest threat as it is the second largest religion in the world after Christianity. However, we still may share more in common with Muslims than polytheists or atheists. Muslims and followers of other religions may view Christians as polytheists due to our belief in the Trinity.

As Christians we see God as the Father of all mankind. This means, whatever we believe, the same God still created us. We cannot change the reality of God, or change who he is. The question is whether we worship him correctly or not.

 

[Alfonso]

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Basel, 1434: “… there is hope that very many from the abominable sect of Mahomet will be converted to the Catholic faith.”

Pope Callixtus III: “I vow to… exalt the true Faith, and to extirpate the diabolical sect of the reprobate and faithless Mahomet in the East.”

EDIT:

How can there be any debate over whether Catholics worship the same God as Mohammedans? The answer is no. God is the Most Holy Trinity, which the Qu'ran blasphemes.

 

[Cardinal John H. Newman]

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Basel, 1434: “… there is hope that very many from the abominable sect of Mahomet will be converted to the Catholic faith.”

Pope Callixtus III: “I vow to… exalt the true Faith, and to extirpate the diabolical sect of the reprobate and faithless Mahomet in the East.”

EDIT:

How can there be any debate over whether Catholics worship the same God as Mohammedans? The answer is no. God is the Most Holy Trinity, which the Qu'ran blasphemes.

The document was concerning Abraham and God the Father. Really, Muslims are kind-a-like another form of a Christian heresy. Obviously, Muslims blasphemy the Trinity. Plus, with a little Divine help from Our Lady, who Muslims hold in high respect (they believe that she was sinless, as she was/is), I ask for her help in their conversion.

P.S. Also, if you love them as neighbors and respect them as humans , you'll get a longer ways then calling them blasphemous (even though they might be) and help them on their journey to accepting Christ. A little love and acceptance always helps. Another thing, in our own time especially, you may see in Muslims powerful allies that are completely against the evils of abortion and contraception. Unity on these issues definitely helps bring together both sides with hopes that they will convert and repent.

Cardinal Newman

 

[Cardinal John H. Newman]

Let us keep in mind, that the road block to many people becoming Christians, isn't their unwillingness to accept the faith, but rather, their experience with us Christians.

We have been in many cases, the road block that prevents non-Christians from seeing Christ in us.

Jim

Completely agreeable. I have seen so-called Christians, whether Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant (from many denominations), Sedevacantists, or other so-called Christians yelling the F-word to their friends while wearing shirts that talk about Christ. Pretty disgusting to me. It's time to clean out the filth from the language.

Cardinal Newman