The Bible...

[armothe]

Bartleby,

I now understand where you are coming from. This hypothetical discussion seems to be focused on the belief that Satan is authentic and the Bible is not. It also assumes that God is less powerful than Satan since He would allow Satan to decieve by using God's name and His word.

You see, you are using the Bible to make a point that Satan exists, yet you claim that the Bible isn't authentic.

This is usually what is called Circular Reasoning. Unless you can come up with another source which predates the Bible that proves Satan exists.

There really is nothing I can offer except giving you examples of similar claims which compare to yours:

What if Satan was entirely made up by God to lead the people he didn't like astray?

What if there is no God (or Satan)?

What if God's Angels and Satan's Demons are little green men?

What if we are all living in a dream state and truly don't exist in this world?

Point is, Christians believe the infallibility of the Bible. If you can't accept this, then you don't have a starting point to believe anything.

-A

 

[bartleby]

armothe,
thanks for your continued contributions. i think you're getting more what i was saying now. a few comments -

"This hypothetical discussion seems to be focused on the belief that Satan is authentic and the Bible is not."
firstly i'm not entirely sure what you mean by authentic and secondly i'm not sure who here holds that belief so i don't see your observation as relevant...

"It also assumes that God is less powerful than Satan since He would allow Satan to decieve by using God's name and His word."
it assumes nothing of the sort. A similar objection was made earlier but I don't really see what grounds there are for assuming that God would neccessarily stop Satan using His name to deceive people. The vast number of people out there who believe in an a single omnipotent god who isn't the Christian version provide sound empirical support for this point. When God comes down and declares the Book of Mormon wrong then we'll see...

"You see, you are using the Bible to make a point that Satan exists, yet you claim that the Bible isn't authentic."
You see, I'm not doing that at all, the question i'm posing is presupposing his existence regardless of the authenticity of the Bible. Also on whilst we're on this subject I'm not claiming that the Bible is inauthentic I'm merely asking the question - "How can we be sure?".

"This is usually what is called Circular Reasoning. Unless you can come up with another source which predates the Bible that proves Satan exists."
and even if it were circular, which i doubt, i really don't see that it is viciously so. however the question is really just easily as posed as "how can we be sure that Loki (or Ahriman or Eblis or anyone of a number of trickster gods or a Greek god for it's own amusement) didn't write the Bible?"

"There really is nothing I can offer except giving you examples of similar claims which compare to yours:"
once more i'm not actually claiming anything. have you noticed i've mentioned this before?
however, i don't feel that you're questions are comparable to mine, not only to mention that their format is different.
to make them similar to mine we'd have to hack about with them a bit -
How can we be sure Satan wasn't entirely made up by God to lead the people he didn't like astray?
How can we be sure there is a God (or Satan)?
How can we be sure God's Angels and Satan's Demons are not little green men?
How can we be sure we're not all living in a dream state and truly don't exist in this world? (this raises interesting questions about what we mean by dream, exist, and this world)
anyone like to take a pop at any of them?
every day I'm gladder and gladder that I don't have my own internet forum where people ask me questions...

"Point is, Christians believe the infallibility of the Bible."
I often wonder how many of them believe in the infallibility of the Bible and how many believe in the infallibility of their own interpretation of the Bible... Still, at the risk of provoking the 'no true Christian' argument I am forced to disagree and say that there are many Christians who don't believe that the Bible is infallible as well as questioning what one would mean by infallible with regards to a text.

"If you can't accept this, then you don't have a starting point to believe anything."
You see, that's just plain false. Not to mention that a similar argument can be drawn for any other religion and their own Holy Book even if I didn't presuppose the infallibility of the Bible I could presuppose the infallibility of, say, my senses and therefore also have a starting point.

thanks
bb

 

[armothe]

So what you are attempting to do is to take any proof the Bible lends to the discussion out of the equation. Because, if the Bible is a tool of Satan to decieve us, we can't trust it. So let's not use any examples from the Bible.

Now we are left with a clean slate. There may or may not be a God. There may or may not be a Christ. If they do exist then everything we know about them could be a lie (since the Bible is a tool of Satan).

So far, in this world of yours we have Satan and mankind. Who/What else? Do trust use egyptian polytheism? Do we trust Greek polytheism? Do we read the Koran and believe in Allah? Are there any gods at all? What if all religion is a tool of Satan?

Where does that leave you/us?

The point of my last post is how can you claim Satan exists since his origin is solely revealed in the Bible, yet state that perhaps Satan was behind the writing of the Bible with the intention of decieving people? If he wrote the Bible to decieve people then how do you determine which parts are true and which parts arent? Perhaps all the references to Satan are untrue/decietful in itself?

Where are you drawing the line in your *hypothetical claim*
(that is how I view your question).

-A

 

[bartleby]

armothe,
thanks for your continued response. sadly however, i don't have the answers to your questions. if i did then i'd get myself a little forum on the internet and set up shop. perhaps you should ask josephus?

however, one answer, maybe not the right answer and certainly maybe not the answer to any of your questions is this - if we cannot be sure what Holy Book we can trust then we surely cannot be sure whether our interpretation of it is correct, and it is this knowledge (the knowledge of our own lack of knowledge) that we should be most aware of whenever we disagree over any metaphysical issue...

thanks
bb

 

[covenant914]

I for one, do not believe in the infallibility of the Bible. This is the crux of the "argument, misunderstanding, debate, whatever."

Most of the respondents are answering from the presupposition that the Bible is historically accurate and inspired by (dictated by God) - therefore possesing no error.

Both ofthese assumptions are incorrect and will lead you in a merry chase of circular reasoning.

The answer to your question is - we don't know.

I believe that man wrote the Bible, inspired by their personal experiences with God - or what they perceive as their personal experiences. Rather than use the Bible like lawyers use the Constitution - I use it as a light to shine on the Way. It is not the Way. Nor is it God. Only a light to help me better understand.

Not much of answer, sorry.

 

[bartleby]

covenant914,
you may not think it was much of an answer but it seems to me that it's the best one i've received so far on this forum.
it amazes me that many of the most vocal advocates for the neccessity of faith are also those that claim to be surest in their beliefs. it rather makes me wonder why one would need faith if they already have certainty.
thank you for your answer and also for your honesty, that alone is worth all the empty sophistry in the world.
bb

 

[The Simpleton]

bartleby, you said that you came here to ask questions and not to answer them. But it is abundantly clear that you did not come seeking answers. For whatever reason, your heart is completely closed to answers. Admit it. You will never accept and will always question any answer that points to Jesus Christ as the true pathway to God. Your ego blinds you from the truth.

Christ himself spoke of hardhearted people such as you…

Matthew 7

6 "Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.

7 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

The problem is bartleby, you do not truly seek and until you do, you will not truly find answers to your questions. You are much like the Pharisees who were always trying to disprove Jesus Christ with they’re trick questions…

Mark ll.

27They arrived again in Jerusalem, and while Jesus was walking in the temple courts, the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders came to him. 28"By what authority are you doing these things?" they asked. "And who gave you authority to do this?"
29Jesus replied, "I will ask you one question. Answer me, and I will tell you by what authority I am doing these things. 30John's baptism--was it from heaven, or from men? Tell me!"
31They discussed it among themselves and said, "If we say, 'From heaven,' he will ask, 'Then why didn't you believe him?' 32But if we say, 'From men'...." (They feared the people, for everyone held that John really was a prophet.)
33So they answered Jesus, "We don't know."
Jesus said, "Neither will I tell you by what authority I am doing these things.”

The Pharisees were not seeking answers but were in fact trying to discredit and prosecute him. Jesus knew their hearts and appropriately answered their question with a question. He would not give what is holy to dogs.

Unlike Josephus and the others who patiently and eloquently answered your questions, Christ knew their hearts before attempting to answer. Instead he answered their question with a question. Now that Josephus and the others know how closed hearted you are and that you have no real interest in answers, I hope that he and the others will no longer waste their time answering your questions. His and the others time is better spent attempting to answer the questions of those who are truly seeking instead of throwing their pearls to you. I know that is a bit harsh but it is the truth.

I will pray that the next time you have questions that you don’t seek your answers from mere men but instead truly seek the truth from the one true God. If your heart is truly open and you set your ego aside, he will not disappoint you.

 

[bartleby]

Simpleton,
Thank you for your response.

"you said that you came here to ask questions and not to answer them. But it is abundantly clear that you did not come seeking answers. For whatever reason, your heart is completely closed to answers. Admit it. You will never accept and will always question any answer that points to Jesus Christ as the true pathway to God. Your ego blinds you from the truth."

i fear now that you to are falling into the same errors that so many of the others have in their responses to me. that is the mistake of confusing my question with my beliefs and also the mistake of thinking any answer, as long as it says what one wants to hear, is sufficient.
if i had appeared on a maths website (pre 1800s ish) asking how can we be sure of the truth of the parallel postulate of Euclid, it would mean neither that I didn't think that Euclidean geometry was true, nor that I would have to be satisified by the answer "Because Euclid (or the Elements) says so".

with that hopefully clear there's a couple of specific points i'd now like to raise -
you accuse me of not wanting answers. and you want me to admit that my heart (though quite what that organ has to with my ability to accept answers i'm not sure) is closed to answers. now, i don't think this is true (and not just biologically). i'll gladly concede that i'm not interested in poor answers (eg. how can we tell the bible is true? because the bible says so. or similar variants - the problem with answers such as this is that they presuppose the very quality that's in question) but, and i will demonstrate this later, i am not closed to answers. in fact even the poor answers i receive rather than dismissing simply as poor, i will aim to point out their shortcomings in the hope that the answerer can either strengthen them and so that we can come through a 'dialectic' process to some mutually satisfying conclusion.
now, to show that i do in fact want answers please allow me to quote myself from my previous post -
"you may not think it was much of an answer but it seems to me that it's the best one i've received so far on this forum."
not only do i thank someone for their answer but i accept their answer and i even make it clear (so far) that i am still open to more answers. if you would like to debate with me any of the answers i have so far been given and show me why i should accept them i gladly will...

my next concern is the judgemental attitude you have decided to take - "Your ego blinds you" "hardhearted people such as you…" "you do not truly seek" "You are much like the Pharisees" "how closed hearted you are" "He would not give what is holy to dogs." "you have no real interest in answers" "no longer waste their time answering your questions" "instead of throwing their pearls to you".
now forgetting briefly the fact you have managed to ascertain this assessment of my personality from a few posts on an internet website (in most of which i have in fact complained about being misunderstood and misinterpreted and continually insisted that my question should not be taken as a statement of my beliefs) i think it is your attitude here that shows "close-heartedness" not to mention closed mindedness. as opposed to me being the pharisee here how can you be so sure that you are escaping Jesus' criticisms in Matthew 7:5 - "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye."

finally and with respect to this - "I will pray that the next time you have questions that you don’t seek your answers from mere men"
simpleton, i will pray that the next time you read a post you don't leap to inaccurate judgements concerning the person and their reasons for posting it...
thank you
bb

 

[jenlu]

My answer to bartleby's original question.............die.

 

[Thunderchild]

How can you prove that the Bible is of God and not of Satan? You can't.

How can you prove that God is good, righteous, holy, just, and loving? You can't.

These things have to be accepted (or, to give a full account, rejected) on faith.

Do I accept that God is good, righteous, holy, just, and loving? Yes. But there was a time, just after I turned my life over to Christ, when I read a section of the Old Testament - dealing with an action of God's, and was utterly repulsed by what he is recorded to have done. So much so that I hurled the Bible away from me.

But I accept - as a point of faith - that I am not and never will be as cognizant of the full extent of the demands of justice as God is. So it is with the Bible, or rather, with scripture.

Theoretically, it is possible that Satan, rather than God, inspired scripture. The theory can not be demonstrated to be false - it is a matter of belief. Even if God himself came to you and said "I inspired the scriptures" how could you be certain that it really was God and not Satan? The Bible declares certain matters which constitute a tests for such claims, BUT, if the Bible is inspired by Satan, those tests would be invalid.

Even for a thorough-going skeptic such as myself, there comes a point when demanding and seeking proofs becomes fruitless. Let the testing of claims end when any further testing becomes impossible.

 

[jenlu]

I like your answer Thunderchild...mine would work too don't you think?

 

[panterapat]

Bartleby- To answer your question you must ask another question. Who is Satan? Satan is the rebelous angel who would not serve God. The Bible pits Satan against God. But Satan is powerless before the name of Jesus. The devil is defeated through the Cross. The devil is unmasked in the Bible. The Bible gives us the means overcome the devil's temptations. Why would the devil inspire a person to write a book that spells out the means to oversome himself? And to say that the Bible is false makes your arguement moot. It is through the Bible that we even know of the devil's existance. I suggest that you spend less time on questions such as these and more time absorbing the word of God.

 

[sbbqb7n16]

I read in here that someone said "I might be getting into the mind of Satan." Not actually a bad idea (follow me on this). If you know how the enemy works, then you know how to counter-attack!

But to the point, I don't think that if Satan wrote the Bible to lead others astray, he would portray himself as such a bad person. And would predict his own demise in Revelation. "A house divided against itself cannot stand"

Plus where would the real God's book be then? That would mean that God didn't really care about anyone at all, which would make the creation of the "uncared for people" a total waste of time.

 

[Thunderchild]

Jenlu - Assume for a moment that everything we believe about love and truth is in error. Yet, when we die, we find ourselves in an environment that supports everything our prior beliefs have led us to expect.

The question originally posed posits the possibility that we are actively prevented from having access to the truth - and I can't see as how that would change after death.

 

[bartleby]

panterapat,
thanks for your answer.
i do feel ,though, that i've already answered questions similar to yours in my earlier posts so if i can refer you to them instead of repeating myself.

sbbqb7n16,
thanks for your contribution. again i feel the points you raise are ones that have already been gone over.
if we're going to assume that Satan would or wouldn't write a certain thing then we may as well just be done with it and assume he didn't write the Bible but either way i don't think it takes us any closer to answering the question.

jenlu,
thanks for your answer. i liked it alot. however, on examination i don't think it really does answer the question posed. Thunderchild's exception excluded for the moment, it really answers how we can be sure one way or the other rather than how we can be sure that the Bible is not the devil's work. further, and forgive me if i'm reading too much into it here, it implies that you are sure now and that death will only bring you confirmation of this belief and so in this way just moves the question somewhere else.
with reference, now, to what Thunderchild wrote - even if we don't take it that far the possibility of doubt is still there. say for example you die and go to hell - now how can you tell whether you have ended up in hell because the Bible was written by the devil or for some other reason (eg. the Bible is the work of God but you misinterpreted it.)?
as a final point on Thunderchild's comment, whilst i agree with it, at the same time i think that if we die expecting eternal bliss and the devil then gives us eternal bliss then does it matter if we were mislead in the first place? i think that it only becomes an issue if we assume that at some point we will suffer for our decision.

Thunderchild,
Thank you most sincerely both for your answer and for understanding my question. I find myself in agreement with you on most of the points you make.
Thanks again
bb

 

[Thunderchild]

Bartleby - Thankyou, and your points are valid. I'll use something closer to your scenario if this question gets raised again.

Though on further consideration, what if all we expect and hope for from heaven is just a pale shadow of what is available from the true heaven.

I think I'm getting a headache.

 

[wannabe]

The same "Bible" we read also states in Rev 12:9 "Satan, who deceives the whole world..."-KJV or "The primeval serpant, known as the devil or satan, who had led all the world astray..."-NJB (serpent in Hebrew means "whispering enchanter")

shalom