Technical improvement - pitch, etc.

[~Anastasia~]

Hi all,

Just wondering if anyone has any suggestions that might help me? Especially apps, or practice techniques, etc. I can't afford any sort of lessons, and I'm not trained much in music. I self-taught playing a few instruments as a young child though, and in some aspects I have a good ear.

I normally learn to sing a piece well by listening and practicing MANY times. We have in our Church though many hymns that change continually - especially Orthros is a very musical service about an hour and a half long with a different overriding "tone" each week (which is basically a melody frame shaped by base and high notes, and typical steps, but the actual melody varies a little) and many, many hymns fit into these tones (of which there are 8 and there will be at least some each week in a different tone - some special services use nearly all of them).

So it is impossible to practice and actually learn dozens of hymns every week.

And we don't use instruments for that service. And I need to learn to harmonize well with other voices when taking turns singing these.

So ... I can match a note (sometimes I have to "feel around" a little for it, when listening to some instruments. But I can feel in my ear when I hit it.

Human voices don't work the same way to my ear though. I'm terrible at hearing and matching a tone sung by someone.

So my questions are - is there a way I can learn to match sung pitch as opposed to instrumentally-generated ones?

Can I become faster and more accurate at matching pitch? "Searching" for notes isn't appropriate.

Learning to harmonize well is a more long-term goal. I need to do the first things first, but learning to do that would be helpful.

Anyone have any suggestions to offer? I use a few apps and I notice they are helpful in expanding my range and accuracy but I still can't hear a voice singing and match it perfectly - especially not right away. It's frustrating because I've been in the choir and can manage that well because I've learned those songs. But the Orthros service is far more challenging.

Thanks!

 

[Anhelyna]

Hmmmmm -

I don't think this is the time to mention that next week a lot of the music is different Its , in my experience of the UGCC , in minor keys and some melodies are very different

 

[Bass4Jesus]

Let me get this right: You're trying to sing with someone (whether melody or harmony) but you don't know the part(s) yet?

Even if you were perfect at the skill level you're trying to achieve, you'd fail, because you don't know the notes beforehand -- you'd be trying to track in real time what another person is singing. That won't work. Your processing time would have to be as fast as the best electronic harmony generators sold today. We're talking tiny, tiny fractions of a second. Single-digit milliseconds in most cases.

This would be like asking a lead singer to sing a new song she's never heard before by singing along with the original artist's vocal the sound tech is playing in her in-ear monitors. That's a guaranteed train wreck, even for the best singers.

The solution is to learn the material ahead of time, which will sidestep these issues. How, you ask? Ask your church to place you on duty no more than once a month, and ask them to tell you at least a month early which hymns you'll be responsible for on a particular day (that day being at least a month in the future, of course). That will take the pressure off you, it'll give you a chance to practice practice practice, and it'll help you deliver a product that's worthy of God in terms of quality. If the church can supply you with the actual music you have to learn (whether directly or via a Youtube link), all the better.

Side note: Your not being able to discern which notes someone is singing may be because that person's doing a bad job of it. My own experience in churches today is that about half the singers are unencumbered by talent. Not my current one, but some in the past. However, I was at an Armenian church once, and the priest had an incredibly accurate voice (not at all "pitchy" as we like to call a vocal delivery that's off-pitch). You could have followed him no problem, but again, the delay's too long to make this sort of effort a success.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Let me get this right: You're trying to sing with someone (whether melody or harmony) but you don't know the part(s) yet?

Even if you were perfect at the skill level you're trying to achieve, you'd fail, because you don't know the notes beforehand -- you'd be trying to track in real time what another person is singing. That won't work. Your processing time would have to be as fast as the best electronic harmony generators sold today. We're talking tiny, tiny fractions of a second. Single-digit milliseconds in most cases.

This would be like asking a lead singer to sing a new song she's never heard before by singing along with the original artist's vocal the sound tech is playing in her in-ear monitors. That's a guaranteed train wreck, even for the best singers.

The solution is to learn the material ahead of time, which will sidestep these issues. How, you ask? Ask your church to place you on duty no more than once a month, and ask them to tell you at least a month early which hymns you'll be responsible for on a particular day (that day being at least a month in the future, of course). That will take the pressure off you, it'll give you a chance to practice practice practice, and it'll help you deliver a product that's worthy of God in terms of quality. If the church can supply you with the actual music you have to learn (whether directly or via a Youtube link), all the better.

Side note: Your not being able to discern which notes someone is singing may be because that person's doing a bad job of it. My own experience in churches today is that about half the singers are unencumbered by talent. Not my current one, but some in the past. However, I was at an Armenian church once, and the priest had an incredibly accurate voice (not at all "pitchy" as we like to call a vocal delivery that's off-pitch). You could have followed him no problem, but again, the delay's too long to make this sort of effort a success.

I understand your suggestions but ... it won't work for how we do things. And it's been done this way for around 1500 years I think.

There is music, in Byzantine notation. I'm working on learning to read it. It's going to take time. It really takes about 35 years to be fully trained as a cantor but I'm hoping I can do a creditable job sooner. I might not have 35 years lol.

The main voice I'm following, he does have very good technique and talent. Thankfully!

I don't have to harmonize WITH him, but we take turns, sometimes by phrases, sometimes by hymn, and my notes can't mess him up, and shouldn't be jarring to the worship of the congregation. Problem is, I'm not QUITE sure what that needs to sound like, but that's a more long-term goal.

To further complicate things, the notes in Byzantine scales CAN slide to accommodate the comfortable range of the cantors.

I don't really understand the technical terms for the skills I'm trying to learn.

As I said, I trained myself as a child. I had an organ and used to play it a lot ... as a result I can easily know the "G" that starts "Silent Night" and I'm good at knowing when notes are off. But I seem to have trained my ear to those kinds of electronic sounds. And my voice isn't as good as my ear.

I've been reading websites and using various tools, but my training is Western music is extremely basic and it doesn't all translate to Byzantine.

I'm just really at a loss as to how to proceed, but I want to be working on my skills that are lacking.

Thanks for the reply. I know ours is so different from what happens in most worship ministry, but was hoping someone might be able to help.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Hmmmmm -

I don't think this is the time to mention that next week a lot of the music is different Its , in my experience of the UGCC , in minor keys and some melodies are very different

Anhelyna? Any suggestions?

I'm desperate, lol. Is your experience with Byzantine chanting, the isson and melody, in the 8 tones? Or something different?

I think I asked in TAW, but my exact questions were different then, and I don't think I got any help with these particular issues. Maybe I could ask again.

 

[WMusic]

How has this been going for you?

I'm not familiar with the service, but after looking up some examples it seems like there are set chant tones / modes that are used and can be learned to apply to any text. Is that about right? Hope it's going well!

 

[~Anastasia~]

How has this been going for you?

I'm not familiar with the service, but after looking up some examples it seems like there are set chant tones / modes that are used and can be learned to apply to any text. Is that about right? Hope it's going well!

Thanks for asking.

I thought about posting again.

It's going. It's pretty nerve-wracking to set out chanting something - of course not accompanied by instruments, and know I'm off.

I am improving I guess. I hope. I have apps that let me practice singing on pitch, copying a note. I started with a narrow range and I've gotten good at it so I'm widening the range. Of course there's no pitch to match when I'm in Church, and no app to light up when I'm on pitch.

I'm working to learn the notation. It's going to take a long time.

Yes, there are modes. But it's not like learning a set melody, like learning "Row Your Boat" and setting other words to it. Rather the tone is more like a range, that usually starts and ends in similar ways, and includes characteristic intervals, similar patterns. I'm trying to learn them but ... with listening I can get a good sense of that week's tone, but some services include them all (or nearly all) so I need to get a lot better.

There are I think around 125 set melodies that ARE standard - if I knew those melodies it's a matter of plugging new words into them. They are only a small portion of the service though.

It takes a long time and a lot of work to learn this I suppose.

I'm frustrated to not have anyone teaching me.

But I'm doing the best I can with books, recorded music, and general singing apps. I feel like I'm honestly still quite awful at times lol.

It's frustrating that sometimes my ear knows perfectly what I should sound like - but I don't, perhaps because it's so hard for me to sing unaccompanied over a mic and know I'm messing up - it seems to make the next note worse just knowing that.

And it's frustrating sometimes not knowing what I'm supposed to sound like.

I want SO very badly to be able to do this though. I must, to subject myself to this.

 

[Anhelyna]

I'll come back in here for a bit.

Music in the Orthodox [ and Eastern Catholic ] Church is very different to the western ear. There are basically two different styles , Byzantine and Russian. The really big snag is that it's centuries old and not a lot is written down !

Many folk learn by listening and absorbing the Chant pattern. My own parish is very very mixed as regards tradition - greek [ they use an ison a LOT ] , russian, romanian etc etc.

Add into that mix, that music is also very marked by regional variations I can only quote from the Ukrainian traditions here - what is sung in one village Church [ remember no instruments are used ] may be recognisable to someone from 2 villages away but it will be very different at times . At the same time when you hear Liturgy and other Services sung but the whole congregation using 4 part harmony it can be breathtakingly beautiful - and then you suddenly realise there's no choir ! It's just the people singing as they, and their ancestors have sung, for hundreds of years.

I do understand what Anastasia is going through - it's hard to pick this up and feel confident that you are not going to mess things up.

 

[WMusic]

Yes, there are modes. But it's not like learning a set melody, like learning "Row Your Boat" and setting other words to it. Rather the tone is more like a range, that usually starts and ends in similar ways, and includes characteristic intervals, similar patterns. I'm trying to learn them but ... with listening I can get a good sense of that week's tone, but some services include them all (or nearly all) so I need to get a lot better.

There are I think around 125 set melodies that ARE standard - if I knew those melodies it's a matter of plugging new words into them. They are only a small portion of the service though.

From your description and what I've heard online, it sounds like a more intricate version of psalm tones used by other churches. Cool idea! It reminds me of some of the music I've heard by Romanos the Melodist and Kassia as well, which I guess makes it sense. But it also sounds like there's a steep learning curve.

I don't know if I can help you with that, but I might be able to help with singing. Often there's an initial difficulty with a man and woman singing together or trading because of the different registers. Either you'll need to transpose an octave higher or adjust because a pitch that sounds high in his voice is lower in your voice, which will make it feel like you should be higher than you actually need to be. (Sort of a "he's singing high, so I need to sing high" effect.) I encounter that occasionally when I have our altos sing with our tenors. It's always an adventure!

If you'd like, you could share a link to audio or video of you speaking a short phrase (like a line or two of the Lord's prayer) and I can make some recordings based on where you naturally speak to help with matching pitch with a male voice, or we could Skype if you want. I'm afraid I just don't know any apps for that!

 

[~Anastasia~]

From your description and what I've heard online, it sounds like a more intricate version of psalm tones used by other churches. Cool idea! It reminds me of some of the music I've heard by Romanos the Melodist and Kassia as well, which I guess makes it sense. But it also sounds like there's a steep learning curve.

I don't know if I can help you with that, but I might be able to help with singing. Often there's an initial difficulty with a man and woman singing together or trading because of the different registers. Either you'll need to transpose an octave higher or adjust because a pitch that sounds high in his voice is lower in your voice, which will make it feel like you should be higher than you actually need to be. (Sort of a "he's singing high, so I need to sing high" effect.) I encounter that occasionally when I have our altos sing with our tenors. It's always an adventure!

If you'd like, you could share a link to audio or video of you speaking a short phrase (like a line or two of the Lord's prayer) and I can make some recordings based on where you naturally speak to help with matching pitch with a male voice, or we could Skype if you want. I'm afraid I just don't know any apps for that!

That would actually be really helpful to me I think.

I learned my choir parts by finding a female voice I could match on YouTube. But today I stayed in Church for a couple of hours after Bible Study singing through next week's music. We are getting into more "normal" times so most of it is in Mode 2 (the mode of the week next week). It gets easier singing many hymns in the same mode. But the recording is a male voice, and when I try to match his I'm not really singing. When I try to go up an octave it doesn't feel like I'm in the right place.

One more thing - the scales in Byzantine are not fixed. So "vu" isn't always the same note. Which makes it tricky. It's more about intervals. But I'm doing better today on this week's music than I was yesterday.

Getting a better idea of how to do it right with someone else would be very helpful though. Thanks for the offer. I need to figure out how to send a recording?

Thanks again!

 

[Paidiske]

I also found learning a cappella (or solo) liturgical singing from a male voice almost impossible. I gave up on recordings of men to learn from. I also found responding to a male cantor much more difficult than I thought it "should" be. (I think some of our liturgical chant would be very similar, although of course I don't do anywhere near as much).

I'd suggest a buddy to learn with; another woman to work from and practice with. Any chance your parish - or a nearby parish or monastery - has someone you could do that with?

 

[~Anastasia~]

I also found learning a cappella (or solo) liturgical singing from a male voice almost impossible. I gave up on recordings of men to learn from. I also found responding to a male cantor much more difficult than I thought it "should" be. (I think some of our liturgical chant would be very similar, although of course I don't do anywhere near as much).

I'd suggest a buddy to learn with; another woman to work from and practice with. Any chance your parish - or a nearby parish or monastery - has someone you could do that with?

Thanks for the input. So it's not just me?

Ugh, and I'm trying to relearn some technical aspects because I've found my technique of raising pitch has been wrong all my life so I'm in this terrible limbo state right now. I'm getting good at matching pitch with an app but I think my singing sounds deplorable.

No monasteries. We do have a female chanter but they are in Greece so much of the year and when they are here, we've tried to practice, but it's amounted to only a few minutes spread over months.

There IS another parish, and the priest there is very kind and helpful. His wife leads the singing. But it's Antiochian. I don't know really how close their music is. I can rarely visit because I'm pretty busy in my parish and from what I've heard, theirs sounds more choir-like than ours. It's hauntingly beautiful in fact. But I'm not sure I could learn. And she may very well be too busy with her own parish and family.

Too bad ... there's a young girl who demonstrated incredible talent I think during the music portions of our Vacation Church School. If I knew enough and she was interested, I'd offer to teach her and practice with her. But that's just the problem - I don't know enough. And she's only in 4th or 5th grade though. Beautiful voice though. I hope she puts that talent to use.

I'll see if there's anyone else. It would work so much better for me, I think. It's rather frustrating that only male voices are available for at least 85% of the music. The one piece we do weekly that does have an alternating male/female recording, the women's voices are too high for me and I find myself weirdly in between.

Chanting isn't just for one type of voice. The idea is that it's adaptable to whatever voices are there (though they may have to adjust to harmonize well together - our priest has to lower his voice when our deeply bass Greek chanter is here - he's in Greece much of the year too). But I can't seem to find examples to follow.

I appreciate your post. It at least helps me understand a bit why I'm struggling so much. Thank you.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Actually you gave me an idea. There MUST be recordings of nuns chanting somewhere? I have to look for that. If not, someone needs to make one lol. I'll settle for a recording, I just need it in my range.

 

[WMusic]

That would actually be really helpful to me I think.

Getting a better idea of how to do it right with someone else would be very helpful though. Thanks for the offer. I need to figure out how to send a recording?

No problem! Probably the easiest way to record is to use a free service like Vocaroo where you can just record yourself, "save" it, and then it gives you a link to share, like this: Vocaroo | Voice message

A little bit of you just speaking would be great, and if you want to throw in a little chanting or singing then go for it, but it's not necessary!

 

[~Anastasia~]

Speaking I'm most comfortable with. Believe it or not I do NOT like to sing or chant knowing I'm being heard - I just get over it in Church (or try to).

 

[Paidiske]

Definitely not just you. I found it very difficult when I was learning. And also frustrating that for a lot of it, the only recordings I could find were men.

YouTube seems to have a lot of Orthodox nuns chanting, although whether you can find exactly what you want is another question. I hope that helps!

 

[~Anastasia~]

Probably not exactly what I want. But I'd settle for SOMETHING in the different tones.

I think I'll ask around. Maybe shamelessly beg lol. Just a little recording during the services even ...

But I'll definitely see what I can find on YouTube.

 

[Dave-W]

Even if you were perfect at the skill level you're trying to achieve, you'd fail, because you don't know the notes beforehand -- you'd be trying to track in real time what another person is singing. That won't work. Your processing time would have to be as fast as the best electronic harmony generators sold today. We're talking tiny, tiny fractions of a second. Single-digit milliseconds in most cases.

Actually I disagree.

One thing humans have that software does not (at least not yet) is the ability to anticipate.

IMO it is not a skill that can be taught or developed. I have it to a degree with chord progressions which works for playing rhythm guitar or singing bass. I have known a few that could do it with an alto or tenor harmony part.

It is rather rare.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Too it's not as though the melodies are all over the map.

They fall within a typical range, have similar structures, start and end with the same notes and flourishes much of the time - for each given tone of the 8 - and that's about it. It won't be wildly all over the map with pitch. Of course, I've never studied music - maybe that's true of other genres or groups of songs. But it's all I've got to work with.

I got to sing with another person for a few minutes yesterday. I could only anticipate in what was familiar to me, but I wasn't far behind at least on the other parts. But in practice we would not be singing together (except perhaps in ending flourishes) but at best, in antiphonal style.

 

[WMusic]

Speaking I'm most comfortable with. Believe it or not I do NOT like to sing or chant knowing I'm being heard - I just get over it in Church (or try to).

Sure thing, feel free to post it whenever! Or we can correspond through the message system, I think.