Here is another study by Palehorse on the state of the dead in a discussion with a non Adventist member:
Before I proceed I want to post this link that shows the rules of hermeneutics; for I believe it is a solid process of determining meanings of scripture to find truth.
Now, to begin with, I think we can both agree that Matthew 10:28 does not define what a soul is; and I believe that is the question at hand. Or maybe I should ask plainly, what is the question exactly? Exacting answers come from exacting questions.
While I agree that the NT's usage of soul/psuche (Strong's #5590) is an expanded one that covers various symbolic meanings, however none of the NT references that I'm aware of define what a soul is. That definition is found in the OT.
Now some points on this verse in question:
1) By one saying that this verse possibly indicates that the soul is a seperate, dualistic part of a human, than the verse itself states clearly that the soul is NOT immortal; "destroy both soul and body in hell". That alone tells me that the soul, however we decide to define it, CAN be destroyed - thus it is not immortal.
2) When we look at the various definitions for psuche in the lexicon we find a miriad of possible definitions. How do you decide which one of these definitions fits?
3) When one reads the entire Matthew 10 (particularly starting at 10:16 onward) account we find that Christ is talking to the apostles in regards to their persecution as they are being sent out to spread the Gospel. He tells them how hard it is going to be (such as in 10:9 how they would be poor (no gold, nor silver, nor brass)). He tells them not to fear those that are going to persecute them, that they would be brought before governers and kings (verse 18) by those that would have them persecuted. Basically, what we find is Jesus warning them but at the same time giving them strength to do His work - that is the theme - not fearing men. He is telling them to stay strong, for though men may be able to kill them ONLY God can determine ones salvation.
4) I think the crux of your point is going to be "why is body and soul mentioned seperately if they are one and the same as your essay states"? That is a very simple answer; as I stated at the beginning of this reply, the NT expands the means of words used in the OT. Soul in the NT, as we've seen from the Strong's Lexicon #5590, has various meanings. But you'll notice that virtually every definition (in particularly definition #2) shows traits that are associated with the whole being of a person (their feelings, desires, affections, etc). These are parts of the whole person, not some seperate "essense" as the very last definition (2c) would try to squeeze in. As such, the verse simply means [paraphrase] "do not be afraid of those that can kill you, if you are going to be afraid of anyone be afraid of God, for it is He that can destroy you utterly as it is He that decides your salvation".
Does this make sense for I might not have been very clear? But I think once we look at the entire body of texts the overwhelming conclusion of what a soul is easily found. According to rule #7 we must harmonize less-clear verses with those that are more clear. As such, Gen 2:7 is the clearer verse and it tells us exactly what a soul is.
Originally Posted by Justme
Thank you for the compliment; I always try to stay "on point" because it is very easy to muddle the waters when Bible topics are being discussed. I'm just as guilty as anybody of straying sometimes. And by all means return the favor to me, if I "stray" just pull on the reigns a little.
Originally Posted by Justme
1 Timothy 6:15-16 - Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
1 Timothy 1:17 - Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
To arrive at the conclusion that souls are somehow immortal would take a lot of scriptural proof, and as far as I know, such scriptures simply do not exist.
Originally Posted by Justme
Psalms 40:14 - Let them be ashamed and confounded together that seek after my soul to destroy it; let them be driven backward and put to shame that wish me evil.
Psalms 35:4 - Let them be confounded and put to shame that seek after my soul: let them be turned back and brought to confusion that devise my hurt.
When we look to the rules of hermeneutics we see that we must interpret the means of obscure passages with those that are clearer (rule #7). As such, I have a verse that tells what a soul is [Gen 2:7], that only God has immortality [specifically 1 Tim 6:16], that man can in fact destroy a human soul (for that is what David was talking about)[Psalms 40:14 specifically]; in light of this it would seem the clearest interpretation that can be derived is that the Bible teaches body/soul/spirit wholism verses body/soul dualism.
If I may add a verse to further support my the Gen 2:7 verse (for we should never rely on just one verse for any biblical truth) that man is a soul instead of man having a soul;
1 Corinthians 15:45 - And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
This verse supports Gen 2:7 for 1) it is talking about the same event, the creation of man, and 2) it reaffirms that man was made a living soul - not man was given a living soul.
Originally Posted by JustMe
If I may address the verse you cited in the above post:
John 11:25 & 26 - Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.
I can certainly see where this verse, especially due to the use of the word never, does make it seem that the soul/spirit/something doesn't die. So let's look at this.
Reading through the verse I see some keys; 1) we see Christ saying He is the resurrection (which we all firmly believe) and 2) He talks of those that were dead. Now since we know that Christ is the resurrection (i.e. - He has the power to resurrect us) and He will resurrect those that died who believed in Him. But then Christ says "And"! Of course "and" means "in addition to". Christ is talking about two groups of believers; in verse 25 He is addressing those that died (the ones He'll raise from the grave), in verse 26 He is addressing those that will be alive when He returns - for they will put on immortality [1 Corinthians 15:53 & 54] and never die.
I must admit, it took me reading that verse about 7 times before it struck me that there are two different groups being addressed by Christ - and recognizing that now puts this verse in perfect harmony with all the other verses contained in my essay.
I'd like to address the Matt 10:28 verse again for I believe there is a small thing you might have overlooked:
1) breath
a) the breath of life
1) the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing
a) of animals
b) of men
b) life
c) that in which there is life
1) a living being, a living soul
2) the soul
a) the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.) b) the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
c) the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)
Now, I must agree with definition 2a due to its agreement in harmonizing all the scriptures in play. I cannot agree with definitions 2b or 2c for those are what we are trying to prove in the first place. Also, using those definitions puts disharmony between the verses in question. You see, as I tried to explain earlier, what Christ was telling the apostles was simple; "don't fear those that can kill you, for they can't take away your reward of salvation no matter what they do, they cannot kill (def 2a) your desires, your affections i.e. what is in your heart; but God can utterly destroy you". The verse was not intended to define what a soul is, as such we must lend more weight to those verses that state outright what a soul is; the word psuche was used in this verse to denote those intangible parts of a human that cannot be harmed by man - the seat of the emotions and intellect.
I'd like to next address the verses from Revelation you posted:
Revelation 6:9 - And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 20:4 - And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God...
Now, you stated that this leads you believe in what is termed today as the "immortal soul". But we should bear in mind certain things when reading any prophetic book (as rules #1, #7 & #12 imply) is the highly figurative language being used. For instance, John also saw strange beasts coming out of the sea, a woman riding a ferocious beast, another woman clothed with the sun, etc. There is all kinds of imagery used in Revelation that is symbolic of a greater truth; the souls under the alter is no exception and hardly constitutes a reliable reference in which one should base a doctrine on. The verse in Rev 18 should be questioned on this premise as well. I could go on to explain exactly what the souls of the martyrs symbolizes but that is a long study that falls well outside the scope of this souls discussion. But let me leave you with one thought, if this verse is to be taken literally (as your position demands) then what honor or purpose is there in stuffing martyred souls under an alter? Is this to be taken literally? Another important question I have for you in this regard - you said that there is no time in heaven...
"And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" Now, if there is no time in heaven why do they ask such a question? It would appear there is a contradiction here, don't you think? Also, there is talk of the 1,000 years in heaven (Rev 20:2-6) and it is mentioned 6 times.
After reading John 11 I feel there are some things to point out:
1) Yes, Jesus is speaking to Martha - but He is talking about the death of Lazarus. After checking my parallel Bible I find that the NIV correctly calls this chapter "The Death of Lazarus" for that is the very topic.
2) Christ says (verse 11) "Our friend Lazarus sleepeth...but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep". When questioned by the disciples it says (verse 14) "Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead". As Christ said, Lazarus was dead, utterly and completely dead, and had been dead for 4 days at this point in the chapter. Christ makes no mention as to a "sleeping soul" - Christ makes no differenciation at all in fact.
3) When Christ does eventually raise Lazarus from the tomb (verse 43), Lazarus comes forward in a regular fleshy body - not as a disembodied spirit; for he is still wearing his graveclothes and bound (as the custom of the day was) hand and foot (verse 44).
You see, that is what makes our coming ressurection a true miracle - that Christ performs another act of creation and brings us to life. There is no indication in the Bible that a disembodied soul/spirit returns to reanimate a dead body - the soul IS that dead body.
At this point I need to make something very clear for I think this point has been lost; the question being asked here is what is a soul, and not what is the meaning of the Greek word for soul in the NT. That seems to be the hangup. Are we discussing the meaning of psuche or are we trying to define what constitutes the soul. In light of the direct references (Gen 2:7 and 1 Corinthians 15:45) we know what a soul is - it is the body. The NT's psuche, is an expanded, and somewhat poetic, description for the untangible parts of a whole person such as the feelings, the desires, etc. These same attributes are also given to the heart and the mind because they help to make up a whole person.
If someone says that any part of Lazarus (or ourselves for that matter) isn't 100% dead when Christ says he is dead and doesn't further qualify His statement, then that means we are falling under the belief of the very first lie ever recorded in the Bible -
Genesis 3:4 - And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
We most certainly and surely die; 100% and completely. You saw my essay, as such, you know why I come to this conclusion.
If I may add one small observation - and I'm in no way aiming this at you; just maybe the whole of Christiandom: it is the belief that some part of us doesn't truly die that is causing spiritualism & occult practices and religions to blossom. We teach our kids that the soul doesn't actually die and that leaves that child wide open to adopting beliefs and curiosities about contacting those spirits. I walk through the local Christian book store and I see tons of books talking about the "rise in the occult in the USA" but none them, not one, has been able to define "why" it is happening. I can tell you why for I was one of them; before coming to Christ I was Wiccan for over 8 years. And during that time I was involved with such things as evocation and invocation (which are common occult practices) but here is the shocking thing - most of the time I was doing these things with interested Christian-raised young adults. Why were they interested, easy, they were taught from a young age that they don't surely die. (I know this last part was well off topic so please don't feel you have to respond to this part. It's just that I don't see the perspective of an enduring soul/spirit taught in the scriptures and I see Satan's lie as it has crept into the church.)
.....I hope this helps explain my position.
God bless you,
Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
.........Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Before I proceed I want to post this link that shows the rules of hermeneutics; for I believe it is a solid process of determining meanings of scripture to find truth.
Now, to begin with, I think we can both agree that Matthew 10:28 does not define what a soul is; and I believe that is the question at hand. Or maybe I should ask plainly, what is the question exactly? Exacting answers come from exacting questions.
While I agree that the NT's usage of soul/psuche (Strong's #5590) is an expanded one that covers various symbolic meanings, however none of the NT references that I'm aware of define what a soul is. That definition is found in the OT.
Now some points on this verse in question:
1) By one saying that this verse possibly indicates that the soul is a seperate, dualistic part of a human, than the verse itself states clearly that the soul is NOT immortal; "destroy both soul and body in hell". That alone tells me that the soul, however we decide to define it, CAN be destroyed - thus it is not immortal.
2) When we look at the various definitions for psuche in the lexicon we find a miriad of possible definitions. How do you decide which one of these definitions fits?
3) When one reads the entire Matthew 10 (particularly starting at 10:16 onward) account we find that Christ is talking to the apostles in regards to their persecution as they are being sent out to spread the Gospel. He tells them how hard it is going to be (such as in 10:9 how they would be poor (no gold, nor silver, nor brass)). He tells them not to fear those that are going to persecute them, that they would be brought before governers and kings (verse 18) by those that would have them persecuted. Basically, what we find is Jesus warning them but at the same time giving them strength to do His work - that is the theme - not fearing men. He is telling them to stay strong, for though men may be able to kill them ONLY God can determine ones salvation.
4) I think the crux of your point is going to be "why is body and soul mentioned seperately if they are one and the same as your essay states"? That is a very simple answer; as I stated at the beginning of this reply, the NT expands the means of words used in the OT. Soul in the NT, as we've seen from the Strong's Lexicon #5590, has various meanings. But you'll notice that virtually every definition (in particularly definition #2) shows traits that are associated with the whole being of a person (their feelings, desires, affections, etc). These are parts of the whole person, not some seperate "essense" as the very last definition (2c) would try to squeeze in. As such, the verse simply means [paraphrase] "do not be afraid of those that can kill you, if you are going to be afraid of anyone be afraid of God, for it is He that can destroy you utterly as it is He that decides your salvation".
Does this make sense for I might not have been very clear? But I think once we look at the entire body of texts the overwhelming conclusion of what a soul is easily found. According to rule #7 we must harmonize less-clear verses with those that are more clear. As such, Gen 2:7 is the clearer verse and it tells us exactly what a soul is.
Originally Posted by Justme
The thing that impressed me the most about your post is that you dealt with the question at hand instead of digressing to an entirely different point. Make sure I do the same thing in my responses to you.
Thank you for the compliment; I always try to stay "on point" because it is very easy to muddle the waters when Bible topics are being discussed. I'm just as guilty as anybody of straying sometimes. And by all means return the favor to me, if I "stray" just pull on the reigns a little.
Originally Posted by Justme
What the soul or spirit is, is an important point. The reason being that towards the end of your essay you discussed 'sleep'. I consider that it is that soul which sleeps and not the body and soul. I consider that the body returns to the dust and the invisible spiritual 'immortal soul' is what is sleeping.
Interesting point of view and one that I haven't heard expressed this way before. Allow me to ponder that perspective a little while, okay? However, I do have to say that the Bible tells us what a soul is (which we saw in Gen 2:7) and that only God has immortality at this point (1 Timothy 1:17 & 1 Timothy 6:15-16). Let's see those verses quickly:
1 Timothy 6:15-16 - Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
1 Timothy 1:17 - Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
To arrive at the conclusion that souls are somehow immortal would take a lot of scriptural proof, and as far as I know, such scriptures simply do not exist.
Originally Posted by Justme
You mention that the soul is not immortal because it can be killed as verse 28 says. Yes, I know what you mean but it is talking about being killed by God. I see that as different from being ran over by a bus,etc.
I would agree but there are far too many verses in Psalms where David is talking about his enemies seeking him to destroy his soul.
Psalms 40:14 - Let them be ashamed and confounded together that seek after my soul to destroy it; let them be driven backward and put to shame that wish me evil.
Psalms 35:4 - Let them be confounded and put to shame that seek after my soul: let them be turned back and brought to confusion that devise my hurt.
When we look to the rules of hermeneutics we see that we must interpret the means of obscure passages with those that are clearer (rule #7). As such, I have a verse that tells what a soul is [Gen 2:7], that only God has immortality [specifically 1 Tim 6:16], that man can in fact destroy a human soul (for that is what David was talking about)[Psalms 40:14 specifically]; in light of this it would seem the clearest interpretation that can be derived is that the Bible teaches body/soul/spirit wholism verses body/soul dualism.
If I may add a verse to further support my the Gen 2:7 verse (for we should never rely on just one verse for any biblical truth) that man is a soul instead of man having a soul;
1 Corinthians 15:45 - And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
This verse supports Gen 2:7 for 1) it is talking about the same event, the creation of man, and 2) it reaffirms that man was made a living soul - not man was given a living soul.
Originally Posted by JustMe
I consider that it is that soul which sleeps and not the body and soul. I consider that the body returns to the dust and the invisible spiritual 'immortal soul' is what is sleeping.
If I may ask, what verses do you cite for this perspective?
If I may address the verse you cited in the above post:
John 11:25 & 26 - Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.
I can certainly see where this verse, especially due to the use of the word never, does make it seem that the soul/spirit/something doesn't die. So let's look at this.
Reading through the verse I see some keys; 1) we see Christ saying He is the resurrection (which we all firmly believe) and 2) He talks of those that were dead. Now since we know that Christ is the resurrection (i.e. - He has the power to resurrect us) and He will resurrect those that died who believed in Him. But then Christ says "And"! Of course "and" means "in addition to". Christ is talking about two groups of believers; in verse 25 He is addressing those that died (the ones He'll raise from the grave), in verse 26 He is addressing those that will be alive when He returns - for they will put on immortality [1 Corinthians 15:53 & 54] and never die.
I must admit, it took me reading that verse about 7 times before it struck me that there are two different groups being addressed by Christ - and recognizing that now puts this verse in perfect harmony with all the other verses contained in my essay.
I'd like to address the Matt 10:28 verse again for I believe there is a small thing you might have overlooked:
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
This marks a definite separation of body from 'soul.'
I addressed this very point in my above reply; on the surface I would agree - but if what you say is true we'd have to eliminate Gen 2:7 and 1 Corinthians 15:45 from the Bible, which of course we cannot do. Or it there another alternative that will harmonize all of these verses? Yes there is, and the key to that is understanding the definitions of the Greek word psuche, allow me to post those definitions from Strong:This marks a definite separation of body from 'soul.'
1) breath
a) the breath of life
1) the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing
a) of animals
b) of men
b) life
c) that in which there is life
1) a living being, a living soul
2) the soul
a) the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.) b) the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
c) the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)
Now, I must agree with definition 2a due to its agreement in harmonizing all the scriptures in play. I cannot agree with definitions 2b or 2c for those are what we are trying to prove in the first place. Also, using those definitions puts disharmony between the verses in question. You see, as I tried to explain earlier, what Christ was telling the apostles was simple; "don't fear those that can kill you, for they can't take away your reward of salvation no matter what they do, they cannot kill (def 2a) your desires, your affections i.e. what is in your heart; but God can utterly destroy you". The verse was not intended to define what a soul is, as such we must lend more weight to those verses that state outright what a soul is; the word psuche was used in this verse to denote those intangible parts of a human that cannot be harmed by man - the seat of the emotions and intellect.
I'd like to next address the verses from Revelation you posted:
Revelation 6:9 - And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 20:4 - And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God...
Now, you stated that this leads you believe in what is termed today as the "immortal soul". But we should bear in mind certain things when reading any prophetic book (as rules #1, #7 & #12 imply) is the highly figurative language being used. For instance, John also saw strange beasts coming out of the sea, a woman riding a ferocious beast, another woman clothed with the sun, etc. There is all kinds of imagery used in Revelation that is symbolic of a greater truth; the souls under the alter is no exception and hardly constitutes a reliable reference in which one should base a doctrine on. The verse in Rev 18 should be questioned on this premise as well. I could go on to explain exactly what the souls of the martyrs symbolizes but that is a long study that falls well outside the scope of this souls discussion. But let me leave you with one thought, if this verse is to be taken literally (as your position demands) then what honor or purpose is there in stuffing martyred souls under an alter? Is this to be taken literally? Another important question I have for you in this regard - you said that there is no time in heaven...
Heaven is the eternal house meaning there is no time left...
..but when we look at the account of the souls under the altar they ask a question:
"And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" Now, if there is no time in heaven why do they ask such a question? It would appear there is a contradiction here, don't you think? Also, there is talk of the 1,000 years in heaven (Rev 20:2-6) and it is mentioned 6 times.
After reading John 11 I feel there are some things to point out:
1) Yes, Jesus is speaking to Martha - but He is talking about the death of Lazarus. After checking my parallel Bible I find that the NIV correctly calls this chapter "The Death of Lazarus" for that is the very topic.
2) Christ says (verse 11) "Our friend Lazarus sleepeth...but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep". When questioned by the disciples it says (verse 14) "Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead". As Christ said, Lazarus was dead, utterly and completely dead, and had been dead for 4 days at this point in the chapter. Christ makes no mention as to a "sleeping soul" - Christ makes no differenciation at all in fact.
3) When Christ does eventually raise Lazarus from the tomb (verse 43), Lazarus comes forward in a regular fleshy body - not as a disembodied spirit; for he is still wearing his graveclothes and bound (as the custom of the day was) hand and foot (verse 44).
You see, that is what makes our coming ressurection a true miracle - that Christ performs another act of creation and brings us to life. There is no indication in the Bible that a disembodied soul/spirit returns to reanimate a dead body - the soul IS that dead body.
At this point I need to make something very clear for I think this point has been lost; the question being asked here is what is a soul, and not what is the meaning of the Greek word for soul in the NT. That seems to be the hangup. Are we discussing the meaning of psuche or are we trying to define what constitutes the soul. In light of the direct references (Gen 2:7 and 1 Corinthians 15:45) we know what a soul is - it is the body. The NT's psuche, is an expanded, and somewhat poetic, description for the untangible parts of a whole person such as the feelings, the desires, etc. These same attributes are also given to the heart and the mind because they help to make up a whole person.
If someone says that any part of Lazarus (or ourselves for that matter) isn't 100% dead when Christ says he is dead and doesn't further qualify His statement, then that means we are falling under the belief of the very first lie ever recorded in the Bible -
Genesis 3:4 - And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
We most certainly and surely die; 100% and completely. You saw my essay, as such, you know why I come to this conclusion.
If I may add one small observation - and I'm in no way aiming this at you; just maybe the whole of Christiandom: it is the belief that some part of us doesn't truly die that is causing spiritualism & occult practices and religions to blossom. We teach our kids that the soul doesn't actually die and that leaves that child wide open to adopting beliefs and curiosities about contacting those spirits. I walk through the local Christian book store and I see tons of books talking about the "rise in the occult in the USA" but none them, not one, has been able to define "why" it is happening. I can tell you why for I was one of them; before coming to Christ I was Wiccan for over 8 years. And during that time I was involved with such things as evocation and invocation (which are common occult practices) but here is the shocking thing - most of the time I was doing these things with interested Christian-raised young adults. Why were they interested, easy, they were taught from a young age that they don't surely die. (I know this last part was well off topic so please don't feel you have to respond to this part. It's just that I don't see the perspective of an enduring soul/spirit taught in the scriptures and I see Satan's lie as it has crept into the church.)
.....I hope this helps explain my position.
God bless you,
