so anyone can be self-ordained?

[Paidiske]

As long as I can teach and preach the word of God, I'm OK with all of them.

This is the privilege of being a man, I guess. That's not even true for me in many churches of my own denomination.

 

[Peter J Barban]

This is the privilege of being a man, I guess. That's not even true for me in many churches of my own denomination.

I agree with these churches biblically, as you already know, but I genuinely feel sympathy for women in your position.

One of my seminary deans was a missionary to Vietnam. He said that after the Vietnam War., the Viet Cong kill all 100 or our denomination's pastors. However, the pastors' wives kept the churches going in secret. In my mind, these faithful women were true heroes.

Additionally, my preaching class professor privately told me that on average the women students were better preachers than the men students, though they weren't allowed to preach in our churches (they were allowed to "share from the pulpit").

So, I do work with women pastors and leaders without complaint if their churches allow it. I would certainly work with you if the opportunity presented itself.

 

[Paidiske]

In a way, it kind of illustrates my point, though, about not being self-ordained. In most churches, we only take up ministries for which our churches authorise us.

 

[Peter J Barban]

Wow how you navigate btw their differences? Have you ever have issue signing certain type or creed or confession pior joining a church? Also isn't a church or a local community would always want you to stay long? What's your excuses to move on?

I haven't been asked to sign any statements. The big sticking point for most churches is control. They usually push me to give up my home Presbyterian church and work for their church exclusively. So my divided loyalties create tension and some leaders don't deal with this well.

Another reason for moving on is that I have a "prophetic personality" and I am not afraid to tell my leaders the truth when they often just want "loyal" followers.

The most divisive message I have even given was to my Presbyterian church that God wanted them to forgive their enemies.

Another time my Baptist pastor and friend of 7 years found a different place for me to minister after I wrote him a letter that he should not continue to give converts assurance of salvation for raising their hand while he prayed the "Jesus prayer" as everyone closed their eyes.

Another paster went "insane" as my high school daughter age put it because I wouldn't go on a mission trip with him and didn't laugh at his jokes- and I criticized a visiting speaker's sermon.

Even the church where I met my wife no longer allowed me to teach when they found out that I don't speak in tongues.

For my part, sure I've made a lot of mistakes of impatience and pushing too hard for righteousness.

On the other hand, I have a 30-year service gift from my Presbyterian church. So, it's not all church hopping.

 

[Jesusthekingofking]

In a way, it kind of illustrates my point, though, about not being self-ordained. In most churches, we only take up ministries for which our churches authorise us.

I'm speaking about those who break off their church or denomination and decided to start something anew.

 

[High Fidelity]

Depends on the denomination.

If you’re considering ministry, especially pastoral ministry, then you would frankly be irresponsible to not attend seminary or some form of significant training and preparation for the role you intend on undertaking.

An ill-equipped Pastor is nothing but a shepherd standing by the wide gate, smiling ignorantly as he ushers the flock through.

 

[Jesusthekingofking]

Depends on the denomination.

If you’re considering ministry, especially pastoral ministry, then you would frankly be irresponsible to not attend seminary or some form of significant training and preparation for the role you intend on undertaking.

An ill-equipped Pastor is nothing but a shepherd standing by the wide gate, smiling ignorantly as he ushers the flock through.

Anyone these day can start their own ministry, found their own church, set their own doctinal standard. If everyone attend seminary and submit to each other they should be one authority, we don't see that today at all.

 

[High Fidelity]

Anyone these day can start their own ministry, found their own church, set their own doctinal standard. If everyone attend seminary and submit to each other they should be one authority, we don't see that today at all.

They can indeed. It’s very wrong but unsurprising.

We have charlatans in tailored suits promising health and wealth in exchange for what little the congregants have to give…

One even had people fund his private jet.

Insane what people claim to be in service of Christ.

Alas, the day will come where they stand before the One they exploited in their sales pitch and be judged accordingly.

 

[Paidiske]

I'm speaking about those who break off their church or denomination and decided to start something anew.

That's not most Protestant churches, though.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

in the protestant circle, anyone can set up their own church and claim to be a servant of God. As long as they have followers they are the person in charge, free to set up any kind of system. How does that differ from the roman catholic system? at least in RC or eastern Christianity there must be a hierarchy, one must be ordained to be able to minister. otherwise, any wolf or man with ambition can create a business to set up their own church.

The real issue is truth and accountability. The early church from the writings of the church fathers would not accept any communion outside of the church walls. This was protection so that cults and foreign ideas could not enter the church.

Today we have the problem that many mainstream churches have built structures that enshrine unbiblical ideas. Just being ordained in a church today does not mean you stand for truth. That said it is also not wise to self-ordain, there needs to be an oversight in ministries, so people and the self-ordained minister are not deceived and led into error.

I personally could never be a Catholic, due to the great number of errors enshrined by the church. So I have remained a protestant, yet even in that, I see errors in some church teaching. Would I start my own church, no, I neither have the courage nor skill to do so. So I remain under teaching that although I am not 100% in agreement with, I see nothing better.

 

[Jesusthekingofking]

That's not most Protestant churches, though.

But at least you see that mostly in protestant church. My definition of protestant church is not RC or not EO.

 

[Paidiske]

But at least you see that mostly in protestant church. My definition of protestant church is not RC or not EO.

My point is, you also don't see that in Anglican, Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian churches (etc etc). You are looking at one very small, rather extreme practice and describing it as "Protestant" when it does not relate to most Protestant churches at all.

 

[Jesusthekingofking]

My point is, you also don't see that in Anglican, Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian churches (etc etc). You are looking at one very small, rather extreme practice and describing it as "Protestant" when it does not relate to most Protestant churches at all.

Ah I see. I would refer those are classic or mainstream protestant. There are plently of "new" church started by anyone. You can Google it, there are all over the street. They call themselves non denominational

 

[Peter J Barban]

Wow how you navigate btw their differences? Have you ever have issue signing certain type or creed or confession pior joining a church? Also isn't a church or a local community would always want you to stay long? What's your excuses to move on?

It occurs to me that you are only getting my side of the story. Here is an email I sent to my pastor who had started a new church. I had known him for years and considered him my closest friend. His name and church name have been changed.

Hi Pastor and Pastor's wife,
Sorry I wasn't at the worship on Sunday. I had a bad allergy the night before and slept poorly. I plan to be there next Sunday.

After more than a week of prayer and meditation, I have decided to share with you some concerns I have about the current worship service. I hope to present these concerns in a respectful and constructive manner.

1. More testimonies.
It was good to hear the healing work God has done in your wife's life. I think we should encourage more people to give testimonies of what God is doing in their life, even if they are still struggling. In this small church, there is a risk of this becoming the "Pastor and Wife Show". I'm sure you don't want that.

2. More public prayer.
The services I have attended have little, if any, prayer except when calling for a response from the people. I know that prayer is important to you and for your vision of this church, so it should be prominent in the worship meeting. There are many ways to do this. Perhaps you could demonstrate your dependence on prayer by calling on the congregation to join you in prayer before the music starts, before the sermon starts and other times as well. Don't be afraid to show us the intensity of your prayers (but personally I'd prefer prayers that are under 5 minutes long).

3. The worship music needs more milk.
Many of our worship songs only hint at who we worship and what he has done. The week before the baptism, none of the songs (as far as I can remember) used the words Jesus, Christ, cross, sin, or repentance. These feelgood songs are neither meat nor milk they are sugary cotton candy that melts in your mouth and provides no spiritual nourishment. Since this is a young church with many immature believers and if it grows will constantly have a new stream if immature believers, we ought to follow Paul's example to the Corinthians. He said in

1 Cor 3:1-2
Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly--mere infants in Christ. I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready.

1 Cor 2:1-2
When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.

Paul said that spiritual infants need milk and that milk is the message of Jesus Christ crucified. I believe that this message needs to featured in our worship music. Often times this message is there in the worship songs, but hidden. For example "He lived and died, with arms open wide, He gave his life away." You already know what these cotton candy songs are referring to, but I doubt most of the congregation does. I'll bet most people sing that song without really understanding the reference to the cross and Christ's atoning sacrifice. After all, they didn't go to Bible school and English is not the native language for most.

So I suggest either mixing in some songs with a more explicit message of Christ crucified or taking time during the worship to explain some of these songs. I believe that will better contribute to the church's spiritual growth.

4. Sermon Response should not appear shameful

At the end of most sermons, there is a call for response where everyone is told to bow their head and close there eyes. Then those who are moved by God should raise their hand and the Pastor will lead them in anonymous prayer. I know that you believe this method is effective and honors God. However, it gives the appearance that responding to God is a shameful act, one that should be hidden from others. I honestly think God is unhappy, even dishonored by this method. You should make it obvious that responding to God is something to be publicly celebrated, not hidden and anonymous. No one in the Bible ever uses this method and I can't imagine they would, not even in modern Taiwan.

What kind of response is God seeking? Consider

Romans 10:8-11
But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

John 12:42-43
Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not confess their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue; 43 for they loved praise from men more than praise from God.

Are you raising up a congregation that doesn't confess their faith because they love men more than God? Only God knows because you don't have people confess in public.

In summary, you know the truth and are working hard for God. However some of your methods are counterproductive in helping the congregation to know and live in the truth. Such ways may have worked before but don't count on God's continued blessing if keep cutting corners to get more church growth. I believe to reach your vision for this church you need:
1. More Testimonies
2. More Public Prayer
3. More Worship of Christ Crucified
4. More Public Confession/Response to God's work

Respectfully submitted by Peter J Barban.

 

[Peter J Barban]

It occurs to me that you are only getting my side of the story. Here is an email I sent to my pastor who had started a new church. I had known him for years and considered him my closest friend. His name and church name have been changed.

Hi Pastor and Pastor's wife,
Sorry I wasn't at the worship on Sunday. I had a bad allergy the night before and slept poorly. I plan to be there next Sunday.

After more than a week of prayer and meditation, I have decided to share with you some concerns I have about the current worship service. I hope to present these concerns in a respectful and constructive manner.

1. More testimonies.
It was good to hear the healing work God has done in your wife's life. I think we should encourage more people to give testimonies of what God is doing in their life, even if they are still struggling. In this small church, there is a risk of this becoming the "Pastor and Wife Show". I'm sure you don't want that.

2. More public prayer.
The services I have attended have little, if any, prayer except when calling for a response from the people. I know that prayer is important to you and for your vision of this church, so it should be prominent in the worship meeting. There are many ways to do this. Perhaps you could demonstrate your dependence on prayer by calling on the congregation to join you in prayer before the music starts, before the sermon starts and other times as well. Don't be afraid to show us the intensity of your prayers (but personally I'd prefer prayers that are under 5 minutes long).

3. The worship music needs more milk.
Many of our worship songs only hint at who we worship and what he has done. The week before the baptism, none of the songs (as far as I can remember) used the words Jesus, Christ, cross, sin, or repentance. These feelgood songs are neither meat nor milk they are sugary cotton candy that melts in your mouth and provides no spiritual nourishment. Since this is a young church with many immature believers and if it grows will constantly have a new stream if immature believers, we ought to follow Paul's example to the Corinthians. He said in

1 Cor 3:1-2
Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly--mere infants in Christ. I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready.

1 Cor 2:1-2
When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.

Paul said that spiritual infants need milk and that milk is the message of Jesus Christ crucified. I believe that this message needs to featured in our worship music. Often times this message is there in the worship songs, but hidden. For example "He lived and died, with arms open wide, He gave his life away." You already know what these cotton candy songs are referring to, but I doubt most of the congregation does. I'll bet most people sing that song without really understanding the reference to the cross and Christ's atoning sacrifice. After all, they didn't go to Bible school and English is not the native language for most.

So I suggest either mixing in some songs with a more explicit message of Christ crucified or taking time during the worship to explain some of these songs. I believe that will better contribute to the church's spiritual growth.

4. Sermon Response should not appear shameful

At the end of most sermons, there is a call for response where everyone is told to bow their head and close there eyes. Then those who are moved by God should raise their hand and the Pastor will lead them in anonymous prayer. I know that you believe this method is effective and honors God. However, it gives the appearance that responding to God is a shameful act, one that should be hidden from others. I honestly think God is unhappy, even dishonored by this method. You should make it obvious that responding to God is something to be publicly celebrated, not hidden and anonymous. No one in the Bible ever uses this method and I can't imagine they would, not even in modern Taiwan.

What kind of response is God seeking? Consider

Romans 10:8-11
But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

John 12:42-43
Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not confess their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue; 43 for they loved praise from men more than praise from God.

Are you raising up a congregation that doesn't confess their faith because they love men more than God? Only God knows because you don't have people confess in public.

In summary, you know the truth and are working hard for God. However some of your methods are counterproductive in helping the congregation to know and live in the truth. Such ways may have worked before but don't count on God's continued blessing if keep cutting corners to get more church growth. I believe to reach your vision for this church you need:
1. More Testimonies
2. More Public Prayer
3. More Worship of Christ Crucified
4. More Public Confession/Response to God's work

Respectfully submitted by Peter J Barban.

Here is the Pastor's reply.

Dear Peter,

I appreciate that you feel confortable to write your concerns and hope you will always feel comfortable to do that. As I read your email, I did so in a prayerful attitude, asking God if there was anything to these things you mentioned.

Point 1: Regarding more testimonies, I would love to have more testimonies and will do more in the future as it is possible. I know Saddleback has testimonies every week, but they also have 20000 people to choose from. When a church is this small, it is not possible to have testimonies every week. By the way, this last Sunday, we had two people baptised, and they both shared their testimonies. It was great. We had A.J. share her testimony with the church. Danial XYZ has shared his testimony and some others.

Point 2: Concerning more prayer, we already pray 3 to 4 times in most of the worship services, so I am not sure what you are talking about. I am passionate about prayer and have numerous times expressed that in church. I don't believe that I should beat it into the ground as that could be counter-productive. I think, because you haven't been to church every week, maybe you haven't seen that.

Point 3: The music needs more milk...i am not sure why you think the worship music needs more milk...do you mean that the music has wrong theology? The fact that they don't have these words (Jesus, Christ, cross, sin, or repentance.) in them does not mean they don't talk about them. We have those words in most of the songs we sing. The truth is, we pick songs because they do have more meat in them than previous praise songs that were very repetitious. I don't think any of the songs have bad theology. We won't sing a song that has bad theology. We sing songs like I'll Stand from Michael W. Smith that are rich with meaning. The purpose of music is not to teach a theology lesson...that can be done through Bible Studies or sermons...I see the purpose of worship to usher people into the presence of God where they are bringing their lives and presenting them on the altar. I would most certainly not call the music we sing as cotton candy. I have heard that argument by a lot of people in the past, when saying hymns have more theology in them. That is not necessarily true. In fact, there are a lot of hymns that actually have bad theology. You can go to the internet and see many examples. We choose not to use songs with bad theology. We also do use hymns . We sing 3-4 hymns every month. We don't sing hymns that have a lot of oldfEnglish because no one will understand them. I have no problem with the songs we sing, and if you were to ask others, I think you would find the same thing.

Point 4: Sermon Response should not appear shameful. First of all, asking people to come down an isle to receive Jesus is a method of drawing people to receive Christ that did not appear until the revivals of the early 1900's. No one came down an isle to receive Jesus in the gospels or in the early church. The way people publically professed their faith was during the baptism. Those who receive Christ in our church do the same...in fact we ask them to share their testimony with the congregation during their baptism. I do what I do, not because I think they feel ashamed of the gospel, but many people are embarrased to stand out in a crowd, no matter the reason. It is in fact the number one fear people have...public speaking...even more than death.

Peter, in the Bible, when God spoke through the prophets, it was usually to confirm with those people what God had already been saying to them. When Isaiah and Jeremiah spoke of impending doom, they referenced all the times God spoke to them and how they had hardened their hearts. Becausxe they had done so, God was going to judge them. Most prophets also were apprehensive about sharing these things. As we read your email, we did not feel you were confirming things God was telling us. It felt more like you came to church looking for things that were wrong. Your first or second time you came to Living Springs,, you accused me of wanting to build a big empire or my big church. You judged my motives. No one can judge the motives of someone except that person and God. You were way off on that, just as I feel you are off on these things.

I don't want to minimize your feelings, but rather than trying to change what we are doing, maybe you should go find a pastor you can support, or go start a church yourself. Our church is the way it is because of us and the members and what we feel God has told us to do. It is not all me. We feel we are a very Biblically based church. We talk about sin and Christ. I don't water down the gospel at all. I make it is very clear why we are here. I call people to repentance and following Christ. I point people to a genuine real relationship with Christ, and God has blessed it. I take no glory for any of the things done here and I don't worry about the numbers...that is God's job.

I do appreciate you and your friendship, but I have to do what I feel God is telling me to do. I hope you can understand where we are coming from.

Love in Christ,
Pastor