SDA please explain the failed prediction of Ellen White (SDA Prophet)

[H&TR]

Explain how you came to that conclusion. You are literally saying you have to believe in the Bible alone in order to accept an additional standard. Umm???

I never expect or anyone I study with to go beyond the Bible. Just follow what Paul wrote. 1 Thess 5:19 " Do not quench the Spirit.
20 Do not despise prophecies. 21 Test all things; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil."

 

[Adventist Heretic]

I never expect or anyone I study with to go beyond the Bible. Just follow what Paul wrote. 1 Thess 5:19 " Do not quench the Spirit.
20 Do not despise prophecies. 21 Test all things; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil."

ok, but how do you apply that to Ellen White. espically after the disaster we have seen.

 

[eleos1954]

T

they can be inspiring, that is not in debate, but does that make them on the same level as the scripture? No. Does that make her a prophet?NO that is the problem. if they SDA church could just say, she is not a prophet, or a source of authority, but a good author that would be fine but that is not the case. You have to bow and yeild to ANYTHING she says.

she is not just any author that is not her claim or the claim of the SDA church.

I don't claim to be the only authority on the subject matter, but I am an authority on the subject. I know SDA theology and History and I know the issues with Ellen White and how she is viewed and used by the SDA church. I was active for over 40 years in the church. I still attend.

that is true and a good attitude but you need to also know the assumptions the people you are reading and consulting with, not every thing is good, not everyone has good motives.

SDA's can be good Christians and are often unfairly targeted and misrepresented by people who thing doctrine only is the basis of being a christian. not being born again.

that is good., but SDA's don't read other people stuff. until they drop EGW because they have the "TRUTH" everyone else is wrong. Because EGW said so.

that is a great attitude to have. I only wish SDA's could have that. When you know everything because you have a modern prophet you can't take the journey you try to convince everyone else of your truth. Look at the Mormons and JWs' The SDA's are in the same catagory, i know i used to be a missionary for them.

that is good., but SDA's don't read other people stuff. until they drop EGW because they have the "TRUTH" everyone else is wrong. Because EGW said so.

I don't find this to be the case ... maybe some do ... in fact many of those on youtube and other media quote all kinds of different writings of people (christian or not) and yes do include Ellen White's writings.

but SDA's don't read other people stuff.

Kind of painting with a really broad brush don't you think? There are over 22 million members in the SDA church, you have no idea what they do or do not read.

No offense ... but none are the arbiter of truth, including you, me or any other person or denomination , God's word is the only TRUTH ... and Ms. White constantly reiterated that in her writings ... and anyone who reads her writings knows that, including yourself.

Do you think God is going to judge people on their earthly church affiliations and knowledge of biblical doctrine? .... or ... by whats in their heart?

Sure ... we all debate/discuss scripture and that's a good thing .... it makes people search the scriptures ... God most certainly wants all of us searching and discussing His Word from which we form a closer relationship with Him .... but He is also very clear we are not to judge others ... that's totally up to Jesus ... only He knows the heart and has the power to change it.

Is it a knowledge thing or a heart thing? What do you think?

What Does the Bible Say About God Knows Your Heart?

So, you decided you no longer you want to be a member of the SDA church and take issues with some of their and Ms. Whites writings/teachings ... fine .... how's your heart? (rhetorical question) no ... I don't want an answer ... it's none of my business ... it's between you and the Lord ... just like it is with each and evey of us.

We are to point others to Jesus .... getting the gospel out about the Lord by using His Written Word and discussing it .... hopefully by doing so something discussed will get people digging deep into His Word for themselves and they will form their personal relationship with Him and encourage others to do the same whereby hearts will be changed. Amen.

I mean think about it .... all the people who have ever lived (or living today....and in the future,) some of which never had exposure to His written word .... how will God rightly judge them?

HEART ... only God knows it .... only God can change it. Thank you Jesus! Amen and AMEN.

I encourage everyone to study His Word for themselves and find peace in their hearts... it is truly a never ending transforming experience and to be cherished. The love of God is the most powerful and wonderful thing in the universe.

1 Corinthians 13:4-8 ESV (this is God) God is Love.​

Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.

What remains? LOVE

When we get to heaven .... who will be there? Only God knows. Everybody that's supposed to be there ... will be there.

Can't wait to live in a place and be with the Lord and others where there is nothing but love for one another forever and ever .... how about you?

 

[Adventist Heretic]

that is good., but SDA's don't read other people stuff. until they drop EGW because they have the "TRUTH" everyone else is wrong. Because EGW said so.

I don't find this to be the case ... maybe some do ... in fact many of those on youtube and other media quote all kinds of different writings of people (christian or not) and yes do include Ellen White's writings.



Kind of painting with a really broad brush don't you think? There are over 22 million members in the SDA church, you have no idea what they do or do not read.

i can tell you with over 50+ years of experiance with The SDA church. They do not read other work in mass, maybe hear a little, There a little, but not as a regular diet. Why would they everyone else is in apostasy. The more conservative/traditional they are the less like they are to read out side of Adventism, The have the bible and Ellen White, that is enough. I am speaking from a North American, European/ Australian perspective

No offense ... but none are the arbiter of truth, including you, me or any other person or denomination , God's word is the only TRUTH ... and Ms. White constantly reiterated that in her writings ... and anyone who reads her writings knows that, including yourself.

I know you are trying to be tactful, but you are on very dangerous ground. SDA use EGW as the final Arbiter of truth. That is the problem. if you don't agree with here you can loose your Job, Membership and voting rights and you can be shunned. the Traditionalist do not allo any disagreement at all on this matter..

Do you think God is going to judge people on their earthly church affiliations and knowledge of biblical doctrine? .... or ... by whats in their heart?

Does that really apply here? "If you love me keep my commandments." "test everything hold fast to what is true, because Many false prophets have go into the world'. this is not about being "nice" this is about "truth" SDA's claim to have a modern day prophet. that is either true or false. God either spooke through her or did not. she either has authority and must be listened to and obeyed or not. That is the claim. some of the demands she makes on people leads to crazy thing.

Sure ... we all debate/discuss scripture and that's a good thing .... it makes people search the scriptures ... God most certainly wants all of us searching and discussing His Word from which we form a closer relationship with Him .... but He is also very clear we are not to judge others ... that's totally up to Jesus ... only He knows the heart and has the power to change it.

this is not about the heart, it is about obey God. either you will or you won't rebellion is rebellion no matter how "nice" you are. it is either sin or it is not.

Is it a knowledge thing or a heart thing? What do you think?

it is an authority thing. she is not just some other tv preacher raido show host or christian author. That is the deception. He speaks for God in his place. she must be listened to at all cost or you are in rebelling againt God and could envoke the wrath of God.

What Does the Bible Say About God Knows Your Heart?

So, you decided you no longer you want to be a member of the SDA church and take issues with some of their and Ms. Whites writings/teachings ... fine .... how's your heart? (rhetorical question) no ... I don't want an answer ... it's none of my business ... it's between you and the Lord ... just like it is with each and evey of us.

this is not relevent. my heart is just fine. I am doing what God told me to do.

We are to point others to Jesus .... getting the gospel out about the Lord by using His Written Word and discussing it .... hopefully by doing so something discussed will get people digging deep into His Word for themselves and they will form their personal relationship with Him and encourage others to do the same whereby hearts will be changed. Amen.

we are also to correct and rebuke sin, error and blasphmey, EGW is all 3.

I mean think about it .... all the people who have ever lived (or living today....and in the future,) some of which never had exposure to His written word .... how will God rightly judge them?

don't see the relevence.

HEART ... only God knows it .... only God can change it. Thank you Jesus! Amen and AMEN.

I encourage everyone to study His Word for themselves and find peace in their hearts... it is truly a never ending transforming experience and to be cherished. The love of God is the most powerful and wonderful thing in the universe.

1 Corinthians 13:4-8 ESV (this is God) God is Love.​

Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.

What remains? LOVE

When we get to heaven .... who will be there? Only God knows. Everybody that's supposed to be there ... will be there.

Can't wait to live in a place and be with the Lord and others where there is nothing but love for one another forever and ever .... how about you?

those are nice ideas but not related to the subject matter. it appears you are trying to shift the discussion from Ellen Whites failed prediction to me. This is not about me it is about Ellen. so let us get back to examining her statements and the facts and stay out of the personal emotional speculation. Thank -you.

 

[JSRG]

FAILED Accusation #3 - The Civil War is a sign the Jesus is about to Return Testimonies for the Church, vol. 1, p. 260

EVERY calamity by land or by sea was taught as a sign that Christ's coming is near and we continue to give that same warning today... and we all know it.

REv 22:
20 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.” Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!

FAILED accusation #4 -- Jesus would return in a few months (1850) Early Writings, p. 58 -
(No such Jesus will return in a few months) statement in that reference - and all of us who read it - know it.

" Some are looking too far off for the coming of the Lord. Time has continued a few years longer than they expected; therefore they think it may continue a few years more, and in this way their minds are being led from present truth, out after the world. In these things I saw great danger; for if the mind is filled with other things, present truth is shut out, and there is no place in our foreheads for the seal of the living God. I saw that the time for Jesus to be in the most holy place was nearly finished and that time can last but a very little longer. What leisure time we have should be spent in searching the Bible, which is to judge us in the last day." EW 58.1​

REv 22:
20 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.” Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!

FAILED accusation #2 - "england will attack the United States'

"Said the angel: “Hear, O heavens, the cry of the oppressed, and reward the oppressors double according to their deeds.” This nation will yet be humbled into the dust. England is studying whether it is best to take advantage of the present weak condition of our nation, and venture to make war upon her. She is weighing the matter, and trying to sound other nations. She fears, if she should commence war abroad, that she would be weak at home, and that other nations would take advantage of her weakness. Other nations are making quiet yet active preparations for war, and are hoping that England will make war with our nation, for then they would improve the opportunity to be revenged on her for the advantage she has taken of them in the past and the injustice done them. A portion of the queen's subjects are waiting a favorable opportunity to break their yoke; but if England thinks it will pay, she will not hesitate a moment to improve her opportunities to exercise her power and humble our nation. ..."1T 259.1​

step one - provide an actual quote in context - rather than a string of false accusations. This should be very easy to do if you actually have a case, a point , a fact.

For example.. your last to false accusations are totally bogus - they work best if you provide no quote and no context. So I suppose I have to applaud you for giving those accusations their best chance of being regarded as fact.

FAILED accusation #7 -- you have no quote at all from Ellen White saying she was shown "Jupiter" or "Saturn" in a vision much less that she was shown people "living on Jupiter or Saturn" .. simple fact and it is irrefutable. She did claim to have been shown some planet in the Universe that had moons and that had people on it - but never said what planet it was (likely because humans had no name for whatever galaxy/solar system/ planet it was)

FAILED accusation #6 --WE both know that her statement about the "pious slave" that shakes of their chains at the appearing of Jesus never claims that the slave was in America - only that that a slave would exist on earth at the time of the 7th plague and the appearing of Christ. We also know that this statement was published in the 1880's in Early Writings and in 1947 in "Story of Redemption" -- yet no SDA was saying in 1880's or in 1940's that Christ came in 1880 or in 1947 because they don't need that kind of teaching to say that someone on planet Earth is a slave during the time of the 7 plagues of Rev 16 and Christ's appearing during the 7th plague.

I do not see a response from you for #1 or #5. Are you admitting those ones are false prophecies, or was there another reason you didn't respond to them (e.g. lack of time/interest to go through all seven)?

 

[JSRG]

You're treading a dangerous road here; EGW is a failed prophetess in much the same way that Ezekiel is a failed prophet because he prophesied that Nebuchadnezzar would raise to the ground Tyre, that men would dry their fishing nets on the rocks where her foundations once stood. But Nebuchadnezzar did no such thing, nor did Alexander the great, 300 years later, nor has anyone to this day since Tyre's foundations are still visible today and the 'island' which once was her stronghold is still occupied today, despite Ezekiel's prophecy that it would never be occupied again.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/49/3a/08/493a08e6b6bc01962b0d951c30b262b0.jpg

No comment on Ellen G White, but in regards to Ezekiel...

Ezekiel Tyre prophecy defended

Answering Bible contradictions, misunderstandings, and misinterpretations

www.tektonics.org

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

No comment on Ellen G White, but in regards to Ezekiel...

Ezekiel Tyre prophecy defended

Answering Bible contradictions, misunderstandings, and misinterpretations

www.tektonics.org

The URL gives a long winded set of excuses for the prophecy not taking place; wouldn't such failure come under the condemnation of false prophecy in Deuteronomy 18?

when a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken: the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously, thou shalt not be afraid of him.​

Deuteronomy 18:22

 

[Adventist Heretic]

The URL gives a long winded set of excuses for the prophecy not taking place; wouldn't such failure come under the condemnation of false prophecy in Deuteronomy 18?

when a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken: the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously, thou shalt not be afraid of him.​

Deuteronomy 18:22

should be that simple, but for some reason it is not. this what I want people to see.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

=====================
That statement above does show someone some place on Earth is a slave in the still-future second coming but does not say it is slavery in America still being in place at that future time. -- Obviously

This was also published again as slate as 1947 - and was never positioned as America returning to slavery. Just that it would exist some place on Earth at that future event.

Bob God's wrath burns against THIS NATION, and this land of light.

Early Writings

All heaven beholds with indignation human beings, the workmanship of God, reduced by their fellow men to the lowest depths of degradation and placed on a level with the brute creation. Professed followers of that dear Saviour whose compassion was ever moved at the sight of human woe, heartily engage in this enormous and grievous sin, and deal in slaves and souls of men. Human agony is carried from place to place and bought and sold. Angels have recorded it all; it is written in the book. The tears of the pious bondmen and bondwomen, of fathers, mothers, and children, brothers and sisters, are all bottled up in heaven. God will restrain His anger but little longer. His wrath burns against this nation and especially against the religious bodies that have sanctioned this terrible traffic and have themselves engaged in it. Such injustice, such oppression, such sufferings, are looked upon with heartless indifference by many professed followers of the meek and lowly Jesus. And many of them can themselves inflict, with hateful satisfaction, all this indescribable agony; and yet they dare to worship God. It is solemn mockery; Satan exults over it and reproaches Jesus and His angels with such inconsistency, saying, with hellish triumph, "Such are Christ's followers!"

These professed Christians read of the sufferings of the martyrs, and tears course down their cheeks. They wonder that men could ever become so hardened as to practice such cruelty toward their fellow men. Yet those who think and speak thus are at the same time holding human beings in slavery. And this is not all; they sever the ties of nature and cruelly oppress their fellow men. They can inflict most inhuman torture with the same relentless cruelty manifested by

276

papists and heathen toward Christ's followers. Said the angel, "It will be more tolerable for the heathen and for papists in the day of the execution of God's judgment than for such men." The cries of the oppressed have reached unto heaven, and angels stand amazed at the untold, agonizing sufferings which man, formed in the image of his Maker, causes his fellow man. Said the angel, "The names of the oppressors are written in blood, crossed with stripes, and flooded with agonizing, burning tears of suffering. God's anger will not cease until He has caused this land of light to drink the dregs of the cup of His fury, until He has rewarded unto Babylon double. Reward her even as she rewarded you, double unto her double according to her works; in the cup which she hath filled, fill to her double."

I saw that the slave master will have to answer for the soul of his slave whom he has kept in ignorance; and the sins of the slave will be visited upon the master. God cannot take to heaven the slave who has been kept in ignorance and degradation, knowing nothing of God or the Bible, fearing nothing but his master's lash, and holding a lower position than the brutes. But He does the best thing for him that a compassionate God can do. He permits him to be as if he had not been, while the master must endure the seven last plagues and then come up in the second resurrection and suffer the second, most awful death. Then the justice of God will be satisfied.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob God's wrath burns against THIS NATION, and this land of light.

Early Writings

All heaven beholds with indignation human beings, the workmanship of God, reduced by their fellow men to the lowest depths of degradation and placed on a level with the brute creation. Professed followers of that dear Saviour whose compassion was ever moved at the sight of human woe, heartily engage in this enormous and grievous sin, and deal in slaves and souls of men. Human agony is carried from place to place and bought and sold. Angels have recorded it all; it is written in the book.

No doubt a lot of warnings to America against its role in slavery - and slavery continued in Muslims countries many decades after it ended in America - but the statement about the slave in chains at the second coming is about "a slave on earth" no mention is made of which nation that slave was in. Your contrived accusation is not "how terrible Ellen White said a slave would be on Earth at the second coming" rather it is that the statements published in the 1880's in Early Writings and in 1947 in Story of Redemption "predicted" that the second coming would be before 1860's even though they said nothing about a slave in chains in America at the second coming.

We are allowed to condemn slavery in America in the 1800's without also having to insist that the slave mentioned as being in chains at the future second coming - can only be in America -- given that slavery on planet earth went on for many decades in Muslim countries after the 1860's, still exists in some nations today.

We have no way to see the future to know - there absolutely cannot be a slave on planet Earth during the seven plagues of Rev 16. (and we all know it). Such failed accusations are mere fluff, hay, straw, stubble.

It is just not that difficult to understand the point.

 

[BobRyan]

No comment on Ellen G White, but in regards to Ezekiel...

Ezekiel Tyre prophecy defended

Answering Bible contradictions, misunderstandings, and misinterpretations

www.tektonics.org

Thanks - the info at that site was very informative.

Do you have one for Jonah "40 days and Nineveh will be destroyed" outside of the Jer 18 statement on the fact of conditional prophecy?

Interesting that Ezek 18 has something the similar but Jer 18 is a much stronger statement on the aspect of conditional prophecy.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

No doubt a lot of warnings to America against its role in slavery - and slavery continued in Muslims countries many decades after it ended in America - but the statement about the slave in chains at the second coming is about "a slave on earth" no mention is made of which nation that slave was in. Your contrived accusation is not "how terrible Ellen White said a slave would be on Earth at the second coming" rather it is that the statements published in the 1880's in Early Writings and in 1947 in Story of Redemption "predicted" that the second coming would be before 1860's even though they said nothing about a slave in chains in America at the second coming.

We are allowed to condemn slavery in America in the 1800's without also having to insist that the slave mentioned as in chains at the second coming - can only be in America given that slavery on planet earth went on for many decades in Muslim countries after the 1860's, still exists in some nations today and that we have no way to see the future to know - there is not a slave on Earth during the seven plagues of Rev 16.

It is just not that difficult to understand the point.

She directly says it's this nation. The nation she was in at the time of writing. Which was the United States.

To the people on The forum
Do you see how far The Ellen white supporters will go to defend her? They will twist anything to protector her.

 

[BobRyan]

I do not see a response from you for #1 or #5. Are you admitting those ones are false prophecies, or was there another reason you didn't respond to them (e.g. lack of time/interest to go through all seven)?

Thank you for pointing to two that you see some merit in at this point. I am happy to respond to the details in those cases.

FAILED Accusation #1 --

False prophecy #1.
Jerusalem will never be built up again, Early Writings, p. 75 - EGW FAILED (no quote give but a page reference)
Jerusalem will be trampled under foot until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled. Luke 21:24 -Jesus - Fulfilled

Rev 11
Then there was given to me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, “Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it. 2 Leave out the courtyard which is outside the temple and do not measure it, because it has been given to the gentiles (nations); and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months. 3 And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”

So what is the actual quote?? Does the actual quote give us a hint as to why the accusation deliberately did not quote it?

The Gathering Time​

"The Lord has shown me that the message of the third angel must go, and be proclaimed to the scattered children of the Lord, but it must not be hung on time. I saw that some were getting a false excitement, arising from preaching time; but the third angel's message is stronger than time can be. I saw that this message can stand on its own foundation and needs not time to strengthen it; and that it will go in mighty power, and do its work, and will be cut short in righteousness.
EW 75.1

Then I was pointed to some who are in the great error of believing that it is their duty to go to Old Jerusalem, [See Appendix.] and think they have a work to do there before the Lord comes. Such a view is calculated to take the mind and interest from the present work of the Lord, under the message of the third angel; for those who think that they are yet to go to Jerusalem will have their minds there, and their means will be withheld from the cause of present truth to get themselves and others there. I saw that such a mission would accomplish no real good, that it would take a long while to make a very few of the Jews believe even in the first advent of Christ, much more to believe in His second advent. I saw that Satan had greatly deceived some in this thing and that souls all around them in this land could be helped by them and led to keep the commandments of God, but they were leaving them to perish. I also saw that Old Jerusalem never would be built up; and that Satan was doing his utmost to lead the minds of the children of the Lord into these things now, in the gathering time, to keep them from throwing their whole interest into the present work of the Lord, and to cause them to neglect the necessary preparation for the day of the Lord.
EW 75.2

*****
historic context for "going to old Jerusalem" in the Adventist church of the 1840's and 50's was in opposition to the follow --

" teaching that the Old Testament prophecies of Israel's restoration and world leadership were to be fulfilled by a future gathering of literal Jews into Christ's millennial kingdom--a kingdom on this earth with its capital in literal Jerusalem, to which the nations would come up to a restored temple and its services. "​

​

Ellen G. White® Estate: The Gathering of Israel: A Historical Study of Early Writings, pp. 74-76

whiteestate.org

Ellen White and most other Adventist rejected that idea - and taught instead that the Jerusalem of this age would never be brought to world leadership and have a restored temple with its services where all mankind was called to come for worship. Her statement Early Writings EW 75:2 was that going to Jerusalem to try and build the temple, focusing all efforts there instead of going to all the world and sharing the everlasting Gospel of Rev 14:6 - was a huge mistake.

False accusations are then created that avoid direct quotes and historic context for the statement resulting in a hay-stubble-straw-fluff distraction for its readers.

 

[eleos1954]

i can tell you with over 50+ years of experiance with The SDA church. They do not read other work in mass, maybe hear a little, There a little, but not as a regular diet. Why would they everyone else is in apostasy. The more conservative/traditional they are the less like they are to read out side of Adventism, The have the bible and Ellen White, that is enough. I am speaking from a North American, European/ Australian perspective

I know you are trying to be tactful, but you are on very dangerous ground. SDA use EGW as the final Arbiter of truth. That is the problem. if you don't agree with here you can loose your Job, Membership and voting rights and you can be shunned. the Traditionalist do not allo any disagreement at all on this matter..

Does that really apply here? "If you love me keep my commandments." "test everything hold fast to what is true, because Many false prophets have go into the world'. this is not about being "nice" this is about "truth" SDA's claim to have a modern day prophet. that is either true or false. God either spooke through her or did not. she either has authority and must be listened to and obeyed or not. That is the claim. some of the demands she makes on people leads to crazy thing.

this is not about the heart, it is about obey God. either you will or you won't rebellion is rebellion no matter how "nice" you are. it is either sin or it is not.

it is an authority thing. she is not just some other tv preacher raido show host or christian author. That is the deception. He speaks for God in his place. she must be listened to at all cost or you are in rebelling againt God and could envoke the wrath of God.

this is not relevent. my heart is just fine. I am doing what God told me to do.

we are also to correct and rebuke sin, error and blasphmey, EGW is all 3.

don't see the relevence.

those are nice ideas but not related to the subject matter. it appears you are trying to shift the discussion from Ellen Whites failed prediction to me. This is not about me it is about Ellen. so let us get back to examining her statements and the facts and stay out of the personal emotional speculation. Thank -you.

Well .... yes .... we are to rebuke false teachings .... nobody is a replacement for God (blasphemy) .... I find nothing in her writings where she claims this ... some believe she was a prophetess, some don't ... it's not out of the realm of possibility ... I take no stance one way or the other regarding this. The stance I take is I find her writings inspiring. But certainly will not cite blasphemy or heretic teachings in regard to what she wrote.

Accusing someone of blasphemy and/or being a heretic is a serious thing ... don't forget Jesus himself was accused of these things.

Blasphemy, in a religious sense, refers to great disrespect shown to God or to something holy, or to something said or done that shows this kind of disrespect; heresy refers a belief or opinion that does not agree with the official belief or opinion of a particular religion.

So, your are putting forth your opinions .... that's fine ... however .... people should research these things for themselves.

There is a fine line between expressing one's opinion and being judgmental.

My point about the heart is .... we don't know whats in someones heart ... only God does .... and He judges according to it.

His basic principles are written in everyone's heart whether they choose to admit that fact .... or not. We all fall short. We all have "heart problems", including myself .... I wasn't "picking on you" or trying to deflect from the OP, nor was it an emotional response .... I was stating a principle that is taught in His Word ... God searches and judges the heart ... not us.

Again ... when someone goes outside His Written Word .... they should carefully compare that with it ... this was Ms. Whites continuous belief and stated this many many times ... and is solid biblical advice.

Religious "systems" set up the way they run things, are not perfect because they are run by imperfect people. People complain/bicker about their churches all the time. One of the reasons I choose to study on my own and not be "boxed" into any particular "church system" or what doctrines they may put forth.

Those in the Lord are His church and they transcend all earthly church systems. Who am I to say who those people are?

Ok, so you disagree with some things within the SDA church .... and making statements about them ... to what result/outcome? What are your expectations?

 

[BobRyan]

I do not see a response from you for #1 or #5. Are you admitting those ones are false prophecies, or was there another reason you didn't respond to them (e.g. lack of time/interest to go through all seven)?

Response to accusation #1 is posted above.

FAILED Accusation #5 --

False prophecy #5. Adventist alive in 1856 would be alive to see Jesus return. Testimonies for the Church, vol. 1, pp. 131-132. - FAILED, they are all dead.

The quote from the reference given: 1850's

Chapter 23—Conformity to the World​

1T 131

I was shown the company present at the Conference. Said the angel: “Some food for worms, [Sister Clarissa M. Bonfoey, who fell asleep in Jesus only three days after this vision was given, was present in usual health, and was deeply impressed that she was one who would go into the grave, and stated her convictions to others.] some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus.”​

1T 131.3​

In Egypt Moses' message was not "hey pack all of your things and lets go die in the wilderness - but at least those 19 and older will live to go to Canaan". And I think everyone agrees here. His message was that everyone was going "to a land flowing with milk and honey".

The statement above is like that of Moses - the direct route to Canaan.

But Israel failed to enter due to insubordination.

We may have to remain here in this world because of insubordination many more years as did the children of Israel; but for Christ’s sake, His people should not add sin to sin by charging God with the consequence of their own wrong course of action. Now, have men who claim to believe the Word of God learned their lesson that obedience is better than sacrifice? “He hath shewed thee (this rebellious people), O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God.” [Micah 6:8.] 16LtMs, Lt 184, 1901, par. 17​

1 Cor 10 says that the lessons of the OT - are lessons to be learned by NT Christians.

Millerites were initially all called "Adventists" but only a small fraction of them went on to become "Seventh-day Adventists". A lot of focus of the SDAs in the mid 1800's was a focus on reaching out to Millerite "Adventists", addition to world-wide evangelism.

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"Had Adventists, after the great disappointment in 1844, held fast their faith and followed on unitedly in the opening providence of God, receiving the message of the third angel and in the power of the Holy Spirit proclaiming it to the world, they would have seen the salvation of God, the Lord would have wrought mightily with their efforts, the work would have been completed, and Christ would have come ere this to receive His people to their reward. But in the period of doubt and uncertainty that followed the disappointment, many of the advent believers yielded their faith.... Thus the work was hindered, and the world was left in darkness. Had the whole Adventist body united upon the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, how widely different would have been our history!" {Ev 695.3}​

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"It was not the will of God that the coming of Christ should be thus delayed. God did not design that His people, Israel, should wander forty years in the wilderness. He promised to lead them directly to the land of Canaan, and establish them there a holy, healthy, happy people. But those to whom it was first preached, went not in “because of unbelief.” Their hearts were filled with murmuring, rebellion, and hatred, and He could not fulfill His covenant with them." {Ev 696.1}​

(BTW: Jan 22, 2015 Christianity Today Article states that SDAs are now the 5th largest Christian denomination in the world

https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2015/januaryfebruary/season-of-adventists-can-ben-carson-church-stay-separatist.html).

It is the unbelief, the worldliness, unconsecration, and strife among the Lord's professed people that have kept us in this world of sin and sorrow so many years. . . . {Mar 19.2}​

"The angels of God in their messages to men represent time as very short. [See Romans 13:11, 12; 1 Corinthians 7:29; 1 Thessalonians 4:15, 17; Hebrews 10:25; James 5:8, 9; 1 Peter 4:7; Revelation 22:6, 7.] Thus it has always been presented to me. It is true that time has continued longer than we expected in the early days of this message. Our Saviour did not appear as soon as we hoped. But has the Word of the Lord failed? Never! It should be remembered that the promises and threatenings of God are alike conditional. [See Jeremiah 18:7-10; Jonah 3:4-10.]... {LDE 38.3}​

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:
Do you have one for Jonah "40 days and Nineveh will be destroyed"??

That is a very weak argument

Not for those that read their Bibles.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

Well .... yes .... we are to rebuke false teachings .... nobody is a replacement for God (blasphemy) .... I find nothing in her writings where she claims this ... some believe she was a prophetess, some don't ... it's not out of the realm of possibility ... I take no stance one way or the other regarding this. The stance I take is I find her writings inspiring. But certainly will not cite blasphemy or heretic teachings in regard to what she wrote.

Accusing someone of blasphemy and/or being a heretic is a serious thing ... don't forget Jesus himself was accused of these things.

Blasphemy, in a religious sense, refers to great disrespect shown to God or to something holy, or to something said or done that shows this kind of disrespect; heresy refers a belief or opinion that does not agree with the official belief or opinion of a particular religion.

So, your are putting forth your opinions .... that's fine ... however .... people should research these things for themselves.

There is a fine line between expressing one's opinion and being judgmental.

My point about the heart is .... we don't know whats in someones heart ... only God does .... and He judges according to it.

His basic principles are written in everyone's heart whether they choose to admit that fact .... or not. We all fall short. We all have "heart problems", including myself .... I wasn't "picking on you" or trying to deflect from the OP, nor was it an emotional response .... I was stating a principle that is taught in His Word ... God searches and judges the heart ... not us.

Again ... when someone goes outside His Written Word .... they should carefully compare that with it ... this was Ms. Whites continuous belief and stated this many many times ... and is solid biblical advice.

Religious "systems" set up the way they run things, are not perfect because they are run by imperfect people. People complain/bicker about their churches all the time. One of the reasons I choose to study on my own and not be "boxed" into any particular "church system" or what doctrines they may put forth.

Those in the Lord are His church and they transcend all earthly church systems. Who am I to say who those people are?

Ok, so you disagree with some things within the SDA church .... and making statements about them ... to what result/outcome? What are your expectations?

It's not everybody else's fault that the people who support Ellen White support her they're not victims it's their fault. They are seeking credibility and authority and influence. It goes directly against What God says, place the blame where it belongs, place the responsibility where it belongs and stop blaming everybody else for not knowing how to deal with it.

Again it's not my fault that certain people come in here and add that standard. It's Their fault for coming in here and bringing that standard, it's their fault for being deceptive about it. It's their fault they want to talk to people on the forum and pass their ideas off.

If they want to do that they have to play by the same rules as everybody else does. And they're not. I don't feel one bit sorry for exposing them or bringing this up. That's what we are called to do as disciples of the Lord.

Nobody is above Jesus nobody!!!! I don't know why you want to defend them, I don't know why you want to enable this. The less Ellen White they use the better adventism becomes.

So I'm not sorry for what I've done nor am I sorry for what I've said. The SDA Church would be better off without Ellen White. They can do it I've seen it done it's the best church I've ever been to. I want that for everybody else.

 

[BobRyan]

FAILED accusation #9

#9 MRS. WHITE SAID THAT WE HAVE ANIMAL ORGANS IN OUR BRAINS AND THE WEARING OF WIGS WOULD CAUSE INSANITY​

Just as the words "gay" and "nice" have changed their meaning over time - so also the use of the term "animal" is different today than when Ellen White used the term - and we all know it
.
She uses the term for basic-biology vs the higher moral powers of the brain. The higher nature.

From: 2014​

Researchers Find Human Conscience: Part of Brain Differentiating Right and Wrong - LifeNews.com

I have long argued that the difference in humans is moral in nature, not merely biological. But that doesn’t mean that some or all of what makes us unique doesn’t arise out of unique biological differences between us and all other known life. Scientists have apparently discovered a region in the...

www.lifenews.com

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“This is about the brain’s connection to morality. This means that the Oxford scientists, without apparently realising what they’ve done, have located the conscience.​

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“One, it’s called the lateral frontal pole. Two, it’s unique to humans – they ran tests on monkeys in the course of the research at Oxford and, nope, they don’t have it. Three, it’s the size of “a large Brussels sprout”. And four, it’s a leap beyond current scientific knowledge into realms that can only be described as spooky.”​

If your argument is that all of your biological brain is confined to the part responsible for morality, conscience , values of right vs wrong - feel free to keep digging that hole deeper.

 

[BobRyan]

It's not everybody else's fault that the people who support Ellen White support her they're not victims it's their fault.

(feel free to edit your statement to make it legible)

BTW -- You are the one with this "all--ellen-white-all-the-time" topic thread , not the SDAs here -- did you forget??

 

[BobRyan]

Well .... yes .... we are to rebuke false teachings .... nobody is a replacement for God (blasphemy) .... I find nothing in her writings where she claims this ... some believe she was a prophetess, some don't ... it's not out of the realm of possibility ... I take no stance one way or the other regarding this.

Thank you for your posts here. As an SDA I have no inclination to object to your statements rather I find them to be insightful.

I can tell you with over 50 years of experience with the SDA church that we do not expect non-SDAs to accept Ellen White as a prophet and we do not blame them for that position. What is more we do not "lead with Ellen White" but rather the Bible -- sola scriptura. We seek to have Bible-in-common dialogue where we can all refer to scripture for our basis of accepting what is correct vs not correct.

We do not expect non-SDAs to agree with all of our views on what the Bible teaches. in fact we don't expect people in varying denominations to agree 100% across denominations on all topics. It is a given that "some differences" will exist and they also exist inside the SDA church as well.

Everyone has free will and can read the Bible for themselves to determine what they view to be correct Bible doctrine.

The stance I take is I find her writings inspiring.

As do I.

When I share things like her commentary on the Life of Christ "Desire of Ages" with someone I expect them to treat it as they would any other commentary on the life of Christ. To the extent that they find something that blesses them - well praise the Lord.