SDA please explain the failed prediction of Ellen White (SDA Prophet)

[BobRyan]

EllenWhite.Org Website - Changes Made to Ellen White's Writings

ellenwhite.org

This email, now hosted by the White Estate. describes how the pronouns for the Holy Spirit in a devotional on the Holy Spirit were changed for a while from "It" to "He", and then later reversed.

The KJV Bible uses BOTH "it" and "HE" when speaking of the Holy Spirit -- and it is NOT because the KJV is against the Holy Spirit as the third person of the Godhead.

John 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

1 Pet 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Fault finders, false accusers etc might try to "accuse" the KJV authors of rejecting the key doctrine of the Holy Spirit as the "third person" of the Godhead but we all know that would not get very far.

 

[BobRyan]

If I recall correctly, the link you give in this post uses the phrase "currently ravaging congregations".

In general you have to look far and wide to find it being successful in any congregation and many are not even aware that it exists.

I finally ran across one that did have a history where that came up - and everyone aligning against the Trinity doctrine were disfellowshipped. So I guess I do know of "one". I am sure more are out there some where on planet Earth some place.

Hint: Note that Tall73 himself claims to have been an SDA pastor at one time but never claims to have been instructed to reject the Trinity in our Seminary.

 

[tall73]

The KJV Bible uses BOTH "it" and "HE" when speaking of the Holy Spirit -- and it is NOT because the KJV is against the Holy Spirit as the third person of the Godhead.

John 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

1 Pet 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Fault finders, false accusers etc might try to "accuse" the KJV authors of rejecting the key doctrine of the Holy Spirit as the "third person" of the Godhead but we all know that would not get very far.

You don't find it interesting the White Estate edited some Bob?

 

[Leaf473]

We weren't talking about "some person in a pew" but "a pastor teaching doctrinal error" in my prior response to you on that topic - are you changing topics??

I had in mind your recent discussion with @tall73 regarding both White's views on the Trinity and non-Trinitarians currently within the SDA Church.

Everyone in the church already says that.

Great, then it's not a problem if she changed her views on the Trinity. Seems to me.

1 Cor 14 has nothing in it about "speaking correctly" when reporting a prophecy.

But you can find something along those lines in Gal 1:6-9 and 1 John 4:1-3

By speaking correctly, I mean whatever it is the Paul is talking about the other people judging, probably something like whether they're speaking from the Spirit.

If the common SDA belief is that she had the gift of prophecy, but she wasn't perfect, then it doesn't seem like a big deal for an individual SDA to say that a particular prophecy wasn't from the Spirit.

Does that make sense?

 

[Leaf473]

In general you have to look far and wide to find it being successful in any congregation and many are not even aware that it exists.

I finally ran across one that did have a history where that came up - and everyone aligning against the Trinity doctrine were disfellowshipped. So I guess I do know of "one". I am sure more are out there some where on planet Earth some place.

Hint: Note that Tall73 himself claims to have been an SDA pastor at one time but never claims to have been instructed to reject the Trinity in our Seminary.

The particular person in the link, an assistant professor at Andrews IIRC, describes it as "currently ravaging congregations". Quoted from memory, I may have missed a word or two.

If you're having a different experience than that faculty member, great!

The Andrews faculty member doesn't say it's currently being taught there.

 

[BobRyan]

The particular person in the link, an assistant professor at Andrews IIRC, describes it as "currently ravaging congregations". Quoted from memory, I may have missed a word or two.

Maybe he/she needs to "get out more".

As I said it is pretty hard to find it just going from local congregation to local congregation. And you don't find pastors or scholars in our denomination arguing both sides as if two different groups really exist in the denomination. And that is because in general we don't pay pastors and scholars to be at war with our fundamental doctrinal statements.

Which is "the expected" outcome - for just about anyone looking at it.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:

1 Cor 14 has nothing in it about "speaking correctly" when reporting a prophecy.

But you can find something along those lines in Gal 1:6-9 and 1 John 4:1-3

By speaking correctly, I mean whatever it is the Paul is talking about the other people judging, probably something like whether they're speaking from the Spirit.

29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment. 30 But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, the first one must keep silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted; 32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets; 33 for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

as noted in my other references from 1 John 4 and Gal 1:6-9 and Acts 17:11 etc - it is the same process of hearing someone relate a prophetic revelation then applying the test that it must be in line with scripture, with accepted prophetic statement rather than opposing them.

If the common SDA belief is that she had the gift of prophecy, but she wasn't perfect, then it doesn't seem like a big deal for an individual SDA to say that a particular prophecy wasn't from the Spirit.

On the contrary.

All prophets biblical or not were human and could make mistakes. None of them claimed to be perfect. But when they claim that some message came to them from God - that message must always be without error because God is always without error. It is not a measure of God to say that a prophet's claim to have a message from God - failed the test.

In Numbers 12 we find that the gift of prophecy works like this --

6 “Hear now My words:
If there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, shall make Myself known to him in a vision.
I shall speak with him in a dream.
7 “Not so, with My servant Moses,
He is faithful in all My household;
8 With him I speak face to face,

Prophecy is not simply standing up and saying whatever feels good at the moment. But if that were the case - then what you propose would be reasonable.

 

[BobRyan]

Great, then it's not a problem if she changed her views on the Trinity. Seems to me.

You are right that someone could say "I had a vision from God telling me to move from Georgia" -- and that might indeed be the case.

Then later we may find that this same person used to believe against the Trinity even after having that claimed revelation but later through Bible study found out they were in error and change their POV to be in line with the Bible such that they now accept the Trinity.

Such a sequence would not disqualify anything they said about being told to move from Georgia prior to that.
So in that sense - you are correct.

Nathan was asked by David if David should build God's temple and Nathan said "yes" -- but then later God told Nathan that this was the wrong answer -- so Nathan later tells David that the answer from God is in fact "no".

That did not disqualify Nathan either.

But if Nathan had said "God told me you are to build His temple - go do it" than later comes back and says "I was wrong - God told me you are not to build it" - then he is disqualifying himself as a trusted reliable prophet.

===============================

And to add some complexity - in Jonah's case God actually does tell Jonah to go tell Nineveh that it will be destroyed - then later after the people in Nineveh repent and appeal to God for mercy - He shows them mercy. God then tells Jonah He will spare the city.

No one takes that as a sign that Jonah was a false prophet.

 

[BobRyan]

You don't find it interesting the White Estate edited some Bob?

I don't find it surprising that the Bible has it both ways and that various portions of Ellen White's writings have it one way then the other - by quoting the Bible etc.

I don't find it surprising that the White estate keeps the actual hand written autographs, notes, source text from Ellen White so people can compare it as she penned it vs the form of it after it was edited and reviewed by her and then published.

I don't find it surprising that edited editions came out during Ellen White's lifetime where she approved of the edits.

I don't find it surprising that even Bible prophets had scribes, writers that wrote for them as per the Prophets direction.

 

[tall73]

I don't find it surprising that the Bible has it both ways and that various portions of Ellen White's writings have it one way then the other - by quoting the Bible etc.

I don't find it surprising that the White estate keeps the actual hand written autographs, notes, source text from Ellen White so people can compare it as she penned it vs the form of it after it was edited and reviewed by her and then published.

I don't find it surprising that edited editions came out during Ellen White's lifetime where she approved of the edits.

I don't find it surprising that even Bible prophets had scribes, writers that wrote for them as per the Prophets direction.

The revision of the Great Controversy is an example of editing during her lifetime. But the one in the email is considerably after her lifetime.

Any idea why they might want to edit it?

 

[Leaf473]

Maybe he/she needs to "get out more".

As I said, if your experience is different from that particular scholars, great!

As I said it is pretty hard to find it just going from local congregation to local congregation. And you don't find pastors or scholars in our denomination arguing both sides as if two different groups really exist in the denomination. And that is because in general we don't pay pastors and scholars to be at war with our fundamental doctrinal statements.

Which is "the expected" outcome - for just about anyone looking at it.

An article referenced earlier in the thread was written by Eric Brown, ministerial director for the
Upper Columbia Conference. It seems reasonable that he is in a position to know. He says,
"Throughout the years, we've seen a number of various anti-trinitarian ideas move through the church. Another wave seems to be cresting again in the Upper Columbia Conference with materials published by Jean Handwerk and videos by Michael McCaffrey."

It's possible that it varies by region.

I've read through two of the references that our brother @tall73 has given recently. The one above by pastor Brown, and the one by the assistant professor at Andrews. I would characterize them as high quality references.

If you have similar quality references that say something different, something to the effect that the anti-Trinitarian movement is hard to find, I'm interested

 

[Leaf473]

BobRyan said:

1 Cor 14 has nothing in it about "speaking correctly" when reporting a prophecy.

But you can find something along those lines in Gal 1:6-9 and 1 John 4:1-3

29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment. 30 But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, the first one must keep silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted; 32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets; 33 for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

as noted in my other references from 1 John 4 and Gal 1:6-9 and Acts 17:11 etc - it is the same process of hearing someone relate a prophetic revelation then applying the test that it must be in line with scripture, with accepted prophetic statement rather than opposing them.

Are we agreeing that someone can have the gift of prophecy but occasionally prophesy something that is not from God? Or are you saying that once it is known that someone has the gift of prophecy, every prophecy they give is known to be from God?

On the contrary.

All prophets biblical or not were human and could make mistakes. None of them claimed to be perfect. But when they claim that some message came to them from God - that message must always be without error because God is always without error. It is not a measure of God to say that a prophet's claim to have a message from God - failed the test.

In Numbers 12 we find that the gift of prophecy works like this --

6 “Hear now My words:
If there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, shall make Myself known to him in a vision.
I shall speak with him in a dream.
7 “Not so, with My servant Moses,
He is faithful in all My household;
8 With him I speak face to face,

Prophecy is not simply standing up and saying whatever feels good at the moment. But if that were the case - then what you propose would be reasonable.

Sorry, I'm not following you here. It sounds like you are saying that if a person is a prophet, they will always prophesy a message from God. If that's the case, then they would be perfect. And by that I mean they would prophesy perfectly.

Is that what you're saying?

 

[Leaf473]

You are right that someone could say "I had a vision from God telling me to move from Georgia" -- and that might indeed be the case.

Then later we may find that this same person used to believe against the Trinity even after having that claimed revelation but later through Bible study found out they were in error and change their POV to be in line with the Bible such that they now accept the Trinity.

Such a sequence would not disqualify anything they said about being told to move from Georgia prior to that.
So in that sense - you are correct.

Nathan was asked by David if David should build God's temple and Nathan said "yes" -- but then later God told Nathan that this was the wrong answer -- so Nathan later tells David that the answer from God is in fact "no".

That did not disqualify Nathan either.

But if Nathan had said "God told me you are to build His temple - go do it" than later comes back and says "I was wrong - God told me you are not to build it" - then he is disqualifying himself as a trusted reliable prophet.

===============================

And to add some complexity - in Jonah's case God actually does tell Jonah to go tell Nineveh that it will be destroyed - then later after the people in Nineveh repent and appeal to God for mercy - He shows them mercy. God then tells Jonah He will spare the city.

No one takes that as a sign that Jonah was a false prophet.

Right, so why is it a big deal if White changed her mind? Or is it? I'm not saying she did or didn't, I'm just asking if she did, is it a big deal?

 

[Leaf473]

BobRyan said:

1 Cor 14 has nothing in it about "speaking correctly" when reporting a prophecy.

But you can find something along those lines in Gal 1:6-9 and 1 John 4:1-3

29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment.

So that I can understand you better, what is it that you say they are passing judgment on?

30 But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, the first one must keep silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted; 32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets; 33 for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

as noted in my other references from 1 John 4 and Gal 1:6-9 and Acts 17:11 etc - it is the same process of hearing someone relate a prophetic revelation then applying the test that it must be in line with scripture, with accepted prophetic statement rather than opposing them.


On the contrary.

All prophets biblical or not were human and could make mistakes. None of them claimed to be perfect. But when they claim that some message came to them from God - that message must always be without error because God is always without error. It is not a measure of God to say that a prophet's claim to have a message from God - failed the test.

In Numbers 12 we find that the gift of prophecy works like this --

6 “Hear now My words:
If there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, shall make Myself known to him in a vision.
I shall speak with him in a dream.
7 “Not so, with My servant Moses,
He is faithful in all My household;
8 With him I speak face to face,

Prophecy is not simply standing up and saying whatever feels good at the moment. But if that were the case - then what you propose would be reasonable.

 

[tall73]

Right, so why is it a big deal if White changed her mind? Or is it? I'm not saying she did or didn't, I'm just asking if she did, is it a big deal?

Ellen White's view on the subject:

Review and Herald, September 6, 1906

The statement which you quote from "Testimony," No. 31, that "in these letters which I wrote, in the Testimonies I bear, I am presenting to you that which the Lord has presented to me. I do not write one article in the paper, expressing merely my own ideas. They are what God has opened before me in vision -- the precious rays of light shining from the throne," is correct. It is true concerning the articles in our papers and in the many volumes of my books.

Testimonies, vol. 5, p. 691

Do not by your criticisms take out all the force, all the point and power, from the Testimonies. Do not feel that you can dissect them to suit your own ideas, claiming that God has given you ability to discern what is light from heaven and what is the expression of mere human wisdom. If the Testimonies speak not according to the Word of God, reject them.

 

[Leaf473]

BobRyan said:

1 Cor 14 has nothing in it about "speaking correctly" when reporting a prophecy.

But you can find something along those lines in Gal 1:6-9 and 1 John 4:1-3

29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment. 30 But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, the first one must keep silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted; 32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets; 33 for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

as noted in my other references from 1 John 4 and Gal 1:6-9 and Acts 17:11 etc - it is the same process of hearing someone relate a prophetic revelation then applying the test that it must be in line with scripture, with accepted prophetic statement rather than opposing them.


On the contrary.

All prophets biblical or not were human and could make mistakes. None of them claimed to be perfect.

Maybe this is the question to ask:

If prophets can make mistakes, then what's the big deal if White made a mistake? Or is it a big deal?

But when they claim that some message came to them from God - that message must always be without error because God is always without error. It is not a measure of God to say that a prophet's claim to have a message from God - failed the test.

In Numbers 12 we find that the gift of prophecy works like this --

6 “Hear now My words:
If there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, shall make Myself known to him in a vision.
I shall speak with him in a dream.
7 “Not so, with My servant Moses,
He is faithful in all My household;
8 With him I speak face to face,

Prophecy is not simply standing up and saying whatever feels good at the moment. But if that were the case - then what you propose would be reasonable.

 

[BobRyan]

Maybe this is the question to ask:

If prophets can make mistakes, then what's the big deal if White made a mistake? Or is it a big deal?

It is not a big deal if Ellen White had some mistaken idea at all.

What is a big deal is if she said God told her something in a dream or vision and that turns out to be a false statement because then she could not be trusted as a prophet.

So then it is true that "some folks' will go digging through piles of personal letters or reports of something she said at breakfast to see if it was ever a mistake - which just shows how little they know about how the gift of prophecy works.

Still it is correct to say that anything she claims to have said as a message of divine revelation given to her by God - has to have the integrity of "Truth" to it that one expects when God tells someone something.

So yeah - it would not be a big deal if she had some incorrect view of a given topic... but If she claims God Himself had that incorrect view - then that is a problem for her.

 

[BobRyan]

Ellen White's view on the subject:

Review and Herald, September 6, 1906

The statement which you quote from "Testimony," No. 31, that "in these letters which I wrote, in the Testimonies I bear, I am presenting to you that which the Lord has presented to me. I do not write one article in the paper, expressing merely my own ideas.

So then one might then ask which statement published by her claiming it is inspired counsel for the church - are you quoting for your claim that she said God was in error about something or a vision or dream was in error?

 

[tall73]

So then one might then ask which statement published by her claiming it is inspired counsel for the church - are you quoting for your claim that she said God was in error about something or a vision or dream was in error?

Not even sure what your questions is asking Bob. I was noting that Ellen White agrees with you, a prophet, speaking by inspiration, has to be correct, and does not give just the opinion of the person.

Therefore, it would be a problem if Ellen White in one of her statements in her various books and articles, etc. disagreed with Ellen White in other of the same.

 

[BobRyan]

Are we agreeing that someone can have the gift of prophecy but occasionally prophesy something that is not from God?

No -- if they claim to "prophesy of their own " then they need to admit it and repent of it.

Or are you saying that once it is known that someone has the gift of prophecy, every prophecy they give is known to be from God?

People would not go around "prophesying" anything at all normally. If they ever do claim to have a prophesy it would only have value if they were claiming it was from God Himself.

Sorry, I'm not following you here. It sounds like you are saying that if a person is a prophet, they will always prophesy a message from God.

There is no other kind. There is no such thing as "I hereby prophesy of my own good instinct" etc.
But they can always say "I have an opinion on this... and it is the following" -- just like anyone else can say that.

If that's the case, then they would be perfect. And by that I mean they would prophesy perfectly.

Is that what you're saying?

I am saying that in the special case where God goes to a prophet in vision and say "say this to the people" that is what the prophet has to do ... making stuff up instead of giving God's message to the people would be a sin.