Romans 1:26-27 (Split from Should Christians Oppose Gay Civil Marriage?)

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brightmorningstar

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To Olliefranz,
We need to examine exactly what Paul was saying and what he was not saying.
We have what Paul is saying written down in Romans 1. It is quite clear that men lusting after men instead of women and committing indecent acts with other men is homosexual acts not heterosexual acts. It is also quite clear that me committing such error is wickedness. This is what the passage says.
 
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OllieFranz

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To Olliefranz,
We have what Paul is saying written down in Romans 1. It is quite clear that men lusting after men instead of women and committing indecent acts with other men is homosexual acts not heterosexual acts. It is also quite clear that me committing such error is wickedness. This is what the passage says.

Now, there is nothing wrong with this post, where you simply state your interpretation of the verse and it can be compared with my interpretation.

But the post before it is nothing but a personal attack on my honesty -- yet again.

There are different ways that post can be "explained" so that it is not a troll pure and simple, so I will not call it that. But any possible explanation still leaves it in violation of one or more of the following site rules and DoH Guidelines:

From CF Rules/TOS:

Flaming, baiting, trolling, or feeding trolls is not allowed. This also applies to groups. In other words, play nice, don't hurt others, nor call them names.

Defamation is not allowed.

Harassment of another member is not allowed.

From Theology Guidelines:

4: Provide Supporting Statements: Posters in Theology are expected to treat one another with courtesy and respect at all times, ESPECIALLY if you disagree with each other. When you disagree with someone's position, you should post evidence and supporting statements for your position. This policy, sometimes referred to as "X means Y because of Z", must be followed especially when posting claims that are widely considered to be controversial.

5. Respect Differing Points of Reference: It is expected that people who post in Theology will respect people of faith, including those for whom faith and logic are not contradictions, but complements to one another. To some Christians, arguments from the Bible, from doctrine, and from tradition, are just as valid (and at times more valid) than arguments from logic, reason, science, or history. Whether you are arguing from faith or from logic or some combination thereof, you should respect the other person's point of reference.

6. Accusations of non-Christian doctrine: Stating that another member's church is not Christian is not allowed. However, stating a teaching or belief of another church is not Christian because of X, Y, and Z, is allowed.

7: "Tread Carefully" Topics: Theology posters are expected to understand that accusations of heresy, false doctrine, idolatry, anti-Christ, cult, non-Christian beliefs, antisemitism, etc., are very emotionally laden. They are not conducive to clear discussion. While they are not forbidden in the context of a discussion (with evidence, examples, and/or support), they are discouraged by themselves, as terms of insult. This rule may be referred to as the "tread carefully" rule.
Note especially DoH Guidelines 6 and 7. I have told you that a reasoned argument would be listened to.

However you simply continue to call me a liar based on nothing more than that I happen not to bow down before your proclamation that God says X and that means Y with no explanation why it should mean Y. I agree that Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit says X. That is why your statement is calling me a liar when you claim that I do not agree to that statement. But I do not agree that it must absolutely and always mean Y. Especially if Paul himself says it means Z
 
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brightmorningstar

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To Olliefranz,
Now, there is nothing wrong with this post, where you simply state your interpretation of the verse and it can be compared with my interpretation.
Its not my interpretation my friend, the Bible (NIV) says because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. That’s same sex acts/homosexual acts, not heterosexual ones.

That’s my point, do you accept that?
 
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OllieFranz

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Why don't you just wait and see what my study shows? You may be surprised.

Just as you think you know what I am thinking (and are wrong) and attack me on that basis, you approach the Bible thinking you already know everything Paul has to say. If you have guessed right about what Paul is saying and what he means, then waiting through my study will not change things. If you are wrong, then you might learn something.

But an attempt to pre-censor me, especially when accompanied by unprovoked attacks on my character, suggests that you are afraid to allow me to study this passage. That you already suspect that Paul does not agree with what you want him to say, and you are uncomfortable with that possibility.
 
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brightmorningstar

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To Olliefranz,
Why don't you just wait and see what my study shows? You may be surprised.
Does your study agree with the Bible texts? If not its not much use arguing it against Christian views on basically Christian forum, but please let us see it anyway.

That you already suspect that Paul does not agree with what you want him to say, …
I have made no comment about what I want him to say, only what he has written. You haven’t addressed my question, it concerns what Paul has actually written, the Bible (NIV) says because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. That’s same sex acts/homosexual acts, not heterosexual ones.

That’s my point, do you accept that?
 
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OllieFranz

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While I am reluctant to simply drop this thread -- I don't like backing down when I am in the right and am attacked unfairly -- on looking over the entire thread, i see that BMS seems to be the only one following up on anything, and his posts and his attacks make this a clear example of exactly what Matthew 7:6 is talking about And so, following Jesus' advice, unless someone else other than BMS shows any interest, this is the last post I'm making in this thread.

Pity.
 
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brightmorningstar

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To Olliefranz,
Sorry my friend I dont see that I have made any personal attacks except you seeing criticism that you dont believe what is written as an attack.
I have quoted the Bible, and aksed whether you accept what it says, you have not answered, therefore as I said I do not believe we can agree on what the Bible means if we cant agree on what it says.
 
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Stinker

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Earlier in my Christian walk I was taught that (Rom.1:26,27) was an example of why homosexuality was a sin. That if it was sinful for men with masculine personalities to do those things with other masculine men, then it was sinful for men with feminine personalities to do those thngs with other men with feminine personalities as well. I have since learned that Paul was referencing the Aphrodite (and many other pagan religions) worship behavior of many people of that time. They believed that the goddess commanded her worshippers to reverse their sexual attraction to those of the same sex. The pictures of this goddess are quite bizzare. After learning this, I found that in no way can thise section of scripture be used against homosexual being or homosexual acts.
 
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KCKID

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You haven’t addressed my question, it concerns what Paul has actually written, the Bible (NIV) says because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. That’s same sex acts/homosexual acts, not heterosexual ones.

Call me dense, brightmorningstar, but I have no idea WHAT the above scripture is referring to or WHO it's referring to. They're just words that are bandied around by you and others on a regular basis. Who are 'the men' and who are 'the women' Paul refers to. When did these things take place and why did they take place? What 'natural' things had they been doing BEFORE they turned to doing 'unnatural' things? Who are 'they' and 'their' in this obscure text? How did Paul come to arrive at the idea that certain shananigans were going on that supposedly displeased God? Who told him? What was his name? Was this informant trustworthy? How did the informant know about these things in the first place?

Please, give us names, dates, places, etc. So far the 'evidence' that you present has all but been tossed out of court. It's not too reliable, y'know!
 
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brightmorningstar

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To KCKID,
There is a real breakdown in communication here.
Who are 'the men' and who are 'the women' Paul refers to.
It tells you they are the ones who suppress the truth by their wickedness, and whose thinking became futile, and whose foolish hearts were darkened. I think the reference is to Gentiles.

What 'natural' things had they been doing BEFORE they turned to doing 'unnatural' things?
The natural is man with women according to God’s word, the unnatural is men with men, the reason they turned to the unnatural, which is wickedness and ungodliness is because they didn’t retain the knowledge of God. The date and time is not so relevant, at the start of Romans 2 we see Paul addressing the believers not to judge people who do these things worse, because believers need to repent too if they fall short.


Who are 'they' and 'their' in this obscure text? How did Paul come to arrive at the idea that certain shananigans were going on that supposedly displeased God? Who told him? What was his name? Was this informant trustworthy? How did the informant know about these things in the first place?
The answer is Jesus Christ. :) That has already been explained in the first part of the chapter at the start of the letter, and in God’s word from Genesis 2 onwards. Unless one believes the gospel its no use to keep asking the same questions about it.
 
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