Religious ritual and maintaining faith.

[Xeno.of.athens]

Sociologists observe what happens with people in all sorts of circumstances; one observation that sociologists make is that communities that suffer from war and the stress associated with it or suffer from natural disasters and the terror associated with them, experience increases in attendance at religious rituals including Christian church services. Sociologists also observe that costly sacrifices associated with adherence to a religion tend to make it more likely that people will stay in the religion. Thus fasting, sacrificial giving, frequent services, and religious activities that demand time and effort play a significant role in keeping attendance high and make adherence long term.

All of the above is interesting, its applicability to Christianity and Christians may be questioned, and, of course, the faithful will want to argue that the truth of their religion and its teachings is the principal cause for its longevity, persuasiveness, and power to convert. The holy scriptures also back up the argument from truth being that cause for a religion's longevity and the personal sacrifices that the faithful make for the sake of their religion.

So, I am wondering if the argument in Hebrews chapter eleven is an example of the observations made by sociologists about religion.

 

[Clare73]

Sociologists observe what happens with people in all sorts of circumstances; one observation that sociologists make is that communities that suffer from war and the stress associated with it or suffer from natural disasters and the terror associated with them, experience increases in attendance at religious rituals including Christian church services. Sociologists also observe that costly sacrifices associated with adherence to a religion tend to make it more likely that people will stay in the religion. Thus fasting, sacrificial giving, frequent services, and religious activities that demand time and effort play a significant role in keeping attendance high and make adherence long term.
All of the above is interesting, its applicability to Christianity and Christians may be questioned, and, of course, the faithful will want to argue that the truth of their religion and its teachings is the principal cause for its longevity, persuasiveness, and power to convert. The holy scriptures also back up the argument from truth being that cause for a religion's longevity and the personal sacrifices that the faithful make for the sake of their religion.

So, I am wondering if the argument in Hebrews chapter eleven is an example of the observations made by sociologists about religion.

Actually, Heb 11 is more than that. It is a call to persevere and a warning, based on past examples, of the peril of falling away.

 

[The Liturgist]

So, I am wondering if the argument in Hebrews chapter eleven is an example of the observations made by sociologists about religion.

That seems unlikely, since sociology had not emerged as a distinct discipline in the first century AD, and would not do so really until the 19th century, when you had scholars like Max Weber, Auguste Comte as well as rather overrated psuedo-intellectuals such as Karl Marx.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

That seems unlikely, since sociology had not emerged as a distinct discipline in the first century AD, and would not do so really until the 19th century, when you had scholars like Max Weber, Auguste Comte as well as rather overrated psuedo-intellectuals such as Karl Marx.

Sociology can exist without the word "sociology". The argument in part of Hebrews chapter eleven is that people paid a high price to maintain their integrity in the faith and that readers ought to take that high price to heart and do likewise if circumstances require it. The sociologists argue that a religion's longevity and stability as a community is enhanced by payment of a price to maintain one's life of faith.

 

[The Liturgist]

Sociology can exist without the word "sociology". The argument in part of Hebrews chapter eleven is that people paid a high price to maintain their integrity in the faith and that readers ought to take that high to heart and do likewise if circumstances require it. The sociologists argue that a religion's longevity and stability as a community is enhanced by payment of a price to maintain one's life of faith.

It might be more accurate to say society can exist without the study of sociology. After all we don’t need economics to have an economy.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Actually, Heb 11 is more than that. It is a call to persevere and a warning, based on past examples, of the peril of falling away.

Does Hebrews chapter eleven make you feel threatened?

 

[The Liturgist]

Does Hebrews chapter eleven make you feel threatened?

I find it rather comforting actually.

 

[RandyPNW]

Sociologists observe what happens with people in all sorts of circumstances; one observation that sociologists make is that communities that suffer from war and the stress associated with it or suffer from natural disasters and the terror associated with them, experience increases in attendance at religious rituals including Christian church services. Sociologists also observe that costly sacrifices associated with adherence to a religion tend to make it more likely that people will stay in the religion. Thus fasting, sacrificial giving, frequent services, and religious activities that demand time and effort play a significant role in keeping attendance high and make adherence long term.

All of the above is interesting, its applicability to Christianity and Christians may be questioned, and, of course, the faithful will want to argue that the truth of their religion and its teachings is the principal cause for its longevity, persuasiveness, and power to convert. The holy scriptures also back up the argument from truth being that cause for a religion's longevity and the personal sacrifices that the faithful make for the sake of their religion.

So, I am wondering if the argument in Hebrews chapter eleven is an example of the observations made by sociologists about religion.

Though these things are true, that sacrificial commitment tends to solidify a commitment, it has nothing to do with our response to spiritual realities. I may invest lots of money in a product, but if that product turns out to be a scam, I'll be "licking my wounds." I certainly won't continue to support that product.

Also, we may use a kind of "shock therapy" to coerce someone to move away from their obsessions. If they are afraid enough of the consequences of their obsessions, they may be willing to try *not* having those obsessions. For example, if every time I reach for a cigarette my fingers catch on fire, I may be willing to consider not smoking anymore.

In Christianity we are dealing with spiritual realities that do involve obsessions. We are obsessed with doing things by ignoring the spiritual guidance that God wants to give us. We want our own way.

So God causes our "works"--even good works, to blow up every time we operate in opposition to God's Spirit. This discourages us from acting strictly on our own--particularly when we are Christians.

And God does ask us to make a huge investment in our faith so that we are taught to rely solely on Him in all of our decisions in life. In this way we will not get burned.

Regardless of our investment in a religious ideal, it will not provide adequate reinforcement of our "devotion" if it proves to lack spiritual vitality, or if it proves to be false. Sacrifice and fear may aid religious continuity, but apart from its spiritual energy it has no more power to hold us than a pipe dream.

If our religion's veracity is built upon values other than the spiritual value inherent in Christ--ideals like fellowship, idealism, etc. then it can certainly hold us. But it isn't real Christianity--just the shell of it.

 

[Clare73]

Does Hebrews chapter eleven make you feel threatened?

Is it supposed to do so?

Are exhortations (2:1-4, 3:7-4:13, 4:14-16, 5:11-6:12, 10:19-39, 12:12-17) threatening?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Two key verses in Heb 11 were noted in our Bible Study last week.
Hebrews 11:13 KJV
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Hebrews 11:39 KJV
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

It is in times of trouble, when things seem the darkest and when the truth of scripture seems furthest away, that faith and the practice of that faith are the true proofs. You believe and practice even til death, having not received. Today we exist in the promise of the blessed hope. Millions have died having not received that hope in their life. Millions more will. But we endure to the end, when He will raise us up. That is our faith.

 

[hislegacy]

So, I am wondering if the argument in Hebrews chapter eleven is an example of the observations made by sociologists about religion.

Here is Hebrews 11

11 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.​

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3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.​

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4 By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead.​

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5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.” For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.​

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7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.​

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8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11 And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12 And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.​

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13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.​

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17 By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18 even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 19 Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death.​

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20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.​

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21 By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph’s sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.​

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22 By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions concerning the burial of his bones.​

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23 By faith Moses’ parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict.​

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24 By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. 25 He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. 26 He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. 27 By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and the application of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.​

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29 By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.​

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30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the army had marched around them for seven days.​

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31 By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.​

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32 And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets, 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection. 36 Some faced jeers and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were put to death by stoning; they were sawed in two; they were killed by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, living in caves and in holes in the ground.​

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39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.​

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Could you please show which verses were referred to in the sociology study please and how they correlate with your OP. Or at least who presented the argument you are speaking of.

Thanks.