Religion and millennials

[Larniavc]

Unless someone is serious about studying the Bible and the claims of Christianity it’s impossible to understand what snippets of verses mean without context.

Is this not to say that unless you are predisposed to believing that the Bible is factual you will not believe the claims of the Bible?

 

[Larniavc]

It would be like me taking a sentence out of a Harry Potter book and quoting it as the answer to all of life’s problems.

The difference here is the the Harry Potter books do not contains claims of being factual.

2nd Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

 

[Larniavc]

Okay well let’s talk about yoga and meditation. That’s spirituality. Is it not?

No, it’s not. Yoga is a was of building muscle tone and flexibility. It’s also quite relaxing.

Transcendental mediation is basically mindfulness with Buddhist trappings. And mindfulness is really only a mental exercise to lessen the impact of distressing emotions by recognising the thought process taking place and decoupling it from the emotion and reducing the distress.

So neither has a supernatural component.

 

[Zion Princess]

What if you have read the Bible and remain unconvinced? I’ve read the Bible (yes, even the lineages) and I remain unconvinced by the claims which to my gen x mind seem outlandish and hard to swallow.

yes, agreed. There is a lot there that is outlandish and hard to swallow. The reason it seems so outlandish is because it is real history that actually happened, not fiction. Things are outrageous, outlandish things, just like some things that happen in this present day. It’s good that you have read it and don’t necessarily believe everything at first glance. It shows you aren’t foolish. You are intelligently searching the scriptures to see what they say. The Bible is a holy book (holy scriptures) which means unlike (almost) any other book in the world. (The Koran for example). This means that much of it is meant to be spiritually discerned. It is a book that is ultimately meant for believers in the one true God. It can be read by non-believers but one of two things will happen. Either you will walk away unconvinced or you will begin to find great significance in what you’re reading and a fascination with this extremely different type of reading experience that has a spiritual component. What i mean by spiritual component means when you read something and are moved deeply within and have an unexplainable exhilaration, a feeling of familiarity, a feeling of goodness, a feeling of home. This is what it’s like to read a book spiritually.

 

[Larniavc]

And there are no atheists on the battlefield. When faced with death we pray that there is a Higher Power hoping for an answer.

That’s an interesting claim. Do you have any evidence that that is the case? It’s often stated as fact but I’ve yet to see any evidence of that claim.

In my personal experience I sat with with both my Nan and my dad as they were dying in hospital. At no point did I reach out to any supernatural agency.

 

[Larniavc]

What i mean by spiritual component means when you read something and are moved deeply within and have an unexplainable exhilaration, a feeling of familiarity, a feeling of goodness, a feeling of home. This is what it’s like to read a book spiritually.

That’s an interesting experience. I certainly never had that reading the Bible but I have experienced exactly the same feelings under other circumstances not connected with religious thought.

Which tells me that those experiences are not unique to religious thought: what say you?

 

[Zion Princess]

That’s an interesting claim. Do you have any evidence that that is the case? It’s often stated as fact but I’ve yet to see any evidence of that claim.

In my personal experience I sat with with both my Nan and my dad as they were dying in hospital. At no point did I reach out to any supernatural agency.

I will not be able to convince you that life has a spiritual component, but for many it does. And that’s okay to view things as you do. Everyone views life in their own way. I’m not trying to convince you so much as just answering the questions you asked with knowledge I have learned in my studies. I answered as honestly and accurately as I could.

 

[Zion Princess]

That’s an interesting experience. I certainly never had that reading the Bible but I have experienced exactly the same feelings under other circumstances not connected with religious thought.

Which tells me that those experiences are not unique to religious thought: what say you?

That feeling is the connection to the spiritual I believe. There are many ways to connect to the spiritual in this world. I believe it’s like gateways of goodness shining light trying to reach out to us. I would pay close attention to the things that bring those feelings because that’s your connection to spirituality. And about religion you’re absolutely right. Christianity is ultimately a spiritual relationship with the divine, not a religion. It has become a religion, but at its core it is and always has been about relationship/ spiritual connection to the divine aka God aka Higher Power. Spirituality is not a feeling but more like a sixth sense. It’s distinct and different, although at first it may be hard to differentiate from feeling’s because connecting to the spiritual is leads to feeling emotions. Emotion is how we interact with the world around us and our experiences. It’s only natural spirituality would make us feel things, but ultimately it is different than just feelings.

 

[disciple Clint]

No they don’t.

OK then explain where that knowledge came from if not from God and His image.

 

[Larniavc]

OK then explain where that knowledge came from if not from God and His image.

It’s what we get taught growing up. Our culture and society imprints it on us; that’s where.

 

[water of life]

Christianity is still growing overall in the world, and I do find it interesting that it is growing so fast in a nation like China. Mao Zedong attempted to exterminate all religion during the purges of the Cultural Revolution and nearly succeeded. Yet, 50 years later, China has more Christians than any other country in the world. And in spite of the fact that persecution today is at its most intense there since the 1970s.

Religion (and Christianity) does indeed have an appeal to the disenfranchised or those suffering oppression. ex. the Jews, born as a nation after enduring centuries of slavery in Egypt. Here in the west, we have generations of people who have no idea what that is like. Growing up prosperous, growing up free, lacking for little, small wonder that we've decided we don't need God.

 

[disciple Clint]

It’s what we get taught growing up. Our culture and society imprints it on us; that’s where.

And were did they get it? Beyond that we naturally know that some things are wrong we do not need to be told, we know in our own hearts what is right and what is wrong.

 

[RileyG]

i'm surprised with how much i am learning from this thread! (it's a good thing)

 

[kdm1984]

i'm surprised with how much i am learning from this thread! (it's a good thing)

Glad to hear!

Regrettably, I've seen lots of division among age groups lately, and this has even found its way into Christendom. I've noticed that in the last couple of years, for example, "Boomers" has colloquially become a very negative term used by younger people to refer to any older people, and is applied not only to those born 1946-1964, but anyone perceived as rather "old" (usually 35 and over, which actually includes the oldest members of even the Millennial generation!). Meanwhile, "Millennials" has colloquially become a very negative term used by older people to refer to any younger people, especially college-age and twentysomethings -- but the college-age people are actually Generation Z, and only the very youngest people in the Millennial group are in their twenties (the generation ends in 1996, per Pew research); the vast majority of us are in our 30s now, and the very oldest have actually hit their 40s already (my generation spans from 1981-1996).

I see this trend almost everywhere I go online these days, and it's gotten frustrating. For example, I was recently on a Confessional Lutheran online group (mostly LCMS) that was populated heavily by college age people and twentysomethings (Generation Z and younger Millennials). It had been two years since I'd visited the group because I'd grown tired of the immature behavior displayed by some of its youngest members, a tendency that caused me in part to leave LCMS for WELS a couple of years ago. While the clergy were gracious, and I had a nice conversation with one of the pastors there who welcomed me back, sadly a few of the laymembers continued to exhibit petty behavior toward people older and with more experience than them. There were a number of snarky comments about thirtysomethings being "cringe" and older Millennials essentially being "Boomers." And one twentysomething woman in particular, who had once urged women to have children because she said it was God's highest calling for women, still hadn't married yet herself and didn't have any children. Rather than granting me honor for doing so, she said that while she still believed that, she said her experience in being a babysitter granted her just as much understanding into motherhood as I could have, and said she could speak to parenthood with every bit as much authority as me. She didn't welcome me back, refused to talk to me about any topics other than ones she could argue with me on, and displayed continued immaturity. Rather than try to argue with her, I left the group. At my age, it becomes easier to learn which online discussions are worth pursuing, and which one aren't -- this one definitely wasn't. I will just pray for them; I think a number of them will learn in time that this youthful behavior of theirs was silly.

In short, age antipathy is a real problem right now, and not even the church is immune. Some of the younger members and older members are willing to reach across the aisle, but it doesn't happen often enough. It takes a lot of time and discernment to figure out which ones are and which ones aren't.

 

[TheRealAriel]

Posting pretty blind, but this is a conversation I've been having with peers and religious leaders I know lately so I feel eager to comment.

I think a lot of millennials struggle because we are one of the first generations that really diverged from the expected life path. A lot of us didn't get married or since been divorced, many of us are not/cannot be home owners, many don't have children (either because they are waiting for later in life, they chose not to altogether, or because they couldn't for some reason or another), many of us are nomadic in both career paths and living situations. All of this to say, this is not the 3 kids and a picket fence standard that churches so often preach to. Sermons are often alienating to us and churches seldom offer groups for singles above a certain age. So over time the message we receive is "You're not wanted here," "there's something wrong with you," or "we're not talking to you." I know for me this has been a major player in the temptation I feel to "give up on church" sometimes. Instead of actually doing so I'm trying to channel that energy into creating spaces where misfits like me can feel welcome in church... but it's difficult for sure!

 

[Zion Princess]

Posting pretty blind, but this is a conversation I've been having with peers and religious leaders I know lately so I feel eager to comment.

I think a lot of millennials struggle because we are one of the first generations that really diverged from the expected life path. A lot of us didn't get married or since been divorced, many of us are not/cannot be home owners, many don't have children (either because they are waiting for later in life, they chose not to altogether, or because they couldn't for some reason or another), many of us are nomadic in both career paths and living situations. All of this to say, this is not the 3 kids and a picket fence standard that churches so often preach to. Sermons are often alienating to us and churches seldom offer groups for singles above a certain age. So over time the message we receive is "You're not wanted here," "there's something wrong with you," or "we're not talking to you." I know for me this has been a major player in the temptation I feel to "give up on church" sometimes. Instead of actually doing so I'm trying to channel that energy into creating spaces where misfits like me can feel welcome in church... but it's difficult for sure!

yes, I can relate to the feeling of wanting a place for misfits. I didn’t get married til 37 or have a child til 38. And to be honest I still don’t feel like I fit in! I try to be as honest and authentic as possible in my faith. I have felt many people were hiding behind a mask, not being real and it was honestly a turn off. I have found people few and far between who were also “misfits”. But honestly sometimes I think the so called “misfits” are the normal ones who aren’t pretending to be anything.

 

[Zion Princess]

yes, I can relate to the feeling of wanting a place for misfits. I didn’t get married til 37 or have a child til 38. And to be honest I still don’t feel like I fit in! I try to be as honest and authentic as possible in my faith. I have felt many people were hiding behind a mask, not being real and it was honestly a turn off. I have found people few and far between who were also “misfits”. But honestly sometimes I think the so called “misfits” are the normal ones who aren’t pretending to be anything.

 

[gerbilwoman]

I’m a millennial and I’ve noticed other millennials are more often spiritual rather than religious.

 

[Proselyte of Yah]

As a Millennial (early 30s) in the UK, I can attest to my school days, that teachers actively would teach us "there is no god".

I recall when I went to the zoo to learn about animals as a kid, and the teacher said "just because everything looks designed doesn't mean it is, evolution is responsible, not God".

Often, especially in modern schooling, critical thought and independence over tradition and family values are taught. Which in many respects I do admire, so long as the "good values" and traditions we have are not put aside for harmful forms of progressivism (ie; I can do and think what I want, and reality is subjective to what I make of it, an ironic mindset I've witnessed in many Western-American atheistic liberalism in certain circles).


The UK is very secular, and more often than not mocks religion, 'especially' American religion (Christianity mainly). Though I can see why at times, there 'is' a lot of cringe inducing, embarrassing and politicised forms of Christianity in America.


I of course, was raised on a form of faith, but I was always taught by my parents "don't believe because we do, don't believe because people around you in the church do, you need to believe it for yourself and prove it to yourself". So that's what I did, I searched and still search for things I think build a case for the Bible and Christianity, and I do my best to be fair and try and play devil's advocate and "steelman" my argumentation.

Whilst I can say I can attest to certain very specific prayers in my past to be answered, I don't like to use this as a standard of proof, because, we live in a world of coincidences, and personal testimony, whilst useful for the self, won't convince any critically minded hardcore atheist, especially in the modern world as it is today.

We can also sadly blame many Christian con-artists in history for that, who fake miracles and experiences because they often want people's money and the seats of the churches to be filled up for fame and glory.


So for me, my evidence for my faith is based upon modern empiricism, logic, historicism, as well certain forms of philosophy that is in line with the scriptures.

For example:

Spoiler

I came to my own conclusion and argumentation about God's existence (as well as other subjects such as freewill, morality ,etc) via utilising what I later found out was known as "ontology" (as was pioneered by "St" Anselm), the fact that we can "conceive" of such concept being the proof of it, much like how one cannot conceive of colour unless they have seen it. In the same way, our minds have seen god (at the fundamental primordial level), for us to be able to even argue back and forth over God's existence.

Now, this doesn't prove the god of the "Bible" is the true God, but it's a starting point.


There are of course certain prophecies I find convincing proofs for the Bible. But certain ones I don't use as my defence, because, atheists have a point that some of them, anyone could simply read in the Bible in advance and then "act them out" to pretend to be the said Messiah, or just "write down it was fulfilled by x person" when it actually wasn't.

In this respect, that's what many mean by "using the Bible to prove the Bible". I agree, it's not the strongest road.

It's why I find certain more in-depth prophecies, that include things outside the realms and control of an individual to fulfil, but is fulfilled by additional surrounding "circumstantial" fulfilments.

One essential one for me, is Daniel's 70 weeks which not only gives us a "timeline" for the Messiah, but also tells us by the end of its fulfilment, a new religious covenant would be fulfilled for Israel, Jerusalem would be destroyed with its temple, and sacrifices would be brought to an complete end.

This was written hundreds of years in advance, and all the things it predicted in the time period it was said to happen, happened! Jesus himself pointed to Daniel as a major prophet to pay attention to in that regard.

The reason it can't just be "manually fulfilled" as it were, is because it was beyond any single man's power to do so, and we also have historical proof, that none of the players wanted these things to happen. The Romans never planned to burn down Jerusalem, but were "ordered" to preserve it when they attacked in 70A.D, and the Jews since those days, have never ever rebuild the Temple, and seem to be stuck in a predicament where they can't. And the Jews are a proud and zealous people, who would not easily give up as something as important as their temple and ways of worship (as we noted after their Babylonian exile and destruction of the first temple).

We also note that without the temple, no official Jewish sacrifices can be performed anymore (making Jesus essential to both Jews and Gentiles in that respect, as he is the eternal sacrifice, giving extra meaning to Daniel's prophecy). And with the scattering of the 12 tribes, even if the temple was rebuilt, it's impossible to discover who is a true Levite to authorise orthodox temple sacrifices anyway.

So all these circumstances, as they have been for over 2000 years now, are massive fulfilments of Daniel's prophecy, which required special circumstances, and it was not something that could just be "easily predicted" or made to happen, as Daniel had to:

1. Predict the rise of an Empire that would fulfil the role of "the destroyer"
2. Predict they would destroy Jerusalem
3. Predict they would destroy the temple and that it would not be rebuilt
4. Predict that the official sacrifices could never be done ever again
5. Predict that in that time, there would be a Covenant made


And following this, for scripture to be additionally fulfilled in this respect, it has had to have been ensured that:

1. The 12 tribes would scatter to the extent so that no Levite could be traced to arrange temple worship arrangements for 2000+ years
2. The Jews still remain a cultural ethnic group of people with unified faith despite their scattering and destruction of Jerusalem for 2000+ years
3. The Jewish temple remains in ruins for 2000+ years


To say all this was done "on purpose" and was organised by the Jews, Christians (seen as just a small sect of Jewish zealots and heretics in the 1st century) and Romans all working together in unison, and has been carried on to this day, just to try and make Daniel look like a true prophet, would be the most stupidly grandiose and ridiculous conspiracy theory in all of history.

So for me, the fact that Daniel's prediction came true on all these accounts, Messiah or no, and the effects of which, have lasted to "this day", is a massive piece of supernatural evidence in my book.


And then of course there are other subjects. For example, certain interpretations I have of Genesis based on the Greek and Hebrew that I think closest matches secular science of the origin of life, but that's a whole other massive topic (which I wrote on on my site)...

Other proof would be extrabiblical texts and archaeology proving Jesus and other Biblical figures and events happened.

But to put an end to my rambling, I think many people are being raised in a world biased more to atheism, scepticism, and critical thought now, combined with (in America more so) extremist Christians making an embarrassment of the faith, and people who just are not very well read or educated in scripture.

I've also personally noticed that many apply a very "modern mindset" when reading scripture, as opposed to understanding the culture of the time it was written in, as I've also noted many younger critical atheists have a very "overly literalistic" reading style of the Bible too, almost to what I'd call to an "Autistic level" of literalism (I say this as a person on the spectrum), and many seem to be blind to spiritualism and poetry in scripture, and can't "read between the lines" to understand the ancient ways of speaking. It's a... "wisdom" that has been lost on people today.

We've developed intelligence in a mechanical sense, but we've lost something else.

For example, I've seen some antitheistic people call Jesus a "hypocrite" and a "promoter of violence" because he teaches love and peace, and then said "I came to bring a sword not peace, you must hate your father and mother", and so in this they say he contradicted himself (my eyes roll like the slot machines in a casino when I read things like that).

The meaning of Jesus' teachings are just completely lost on some people, just because they have no... "sight" as it were. Hence my wording "autistic level of literalism", and I think it's become a bit of an epidemic today.

And it's to be expected in a very modern, very mechanical world... and maybe it's just the way the world is meant to go, as Jesus and his Apostles warned it would.

 

[peaceful-forest]

Why has religion become less important over time? Is it a sign of the times? I've noticed very few young people taking religious vocations, or being serious about their faith.

*BTW, by "religion" I mean relationship with God. Not necessarily rules and rituals.

God bless

I think this is a hard question.

I've reflected on my own experiences. Since I stopped going to church 3 years ago, my interest and desire to do things like reading the Bible daily, watching a sermon every Sunday, doing a Bible study weekly, etc. have decreased. I believe this can happen to any age group, not just Millennials.

The church that I had been a member of and had gone to for many years, I decided to leave because they refused to allow a Singles Bible study class. They said it was because "there were more important things to focus on", but after a while, I didn't want to go to a class with old women that had trouble understanding simple things in the Bible** and I didn't want to go to a class that's intended for couples, even though they're classified as "co-ed". I tried another church that had a singles group, but I had an issue with the church's teaching on baptism. I haven't found a church that's worth trying out.

**The reason I feel this way is because I've had repeated encounters of the two oldest generations acting like they're smarter and better than the Millennials, including in knowledge of the Bible. It's a major turn off after awhile. It's like they're unaware that there are people in their generations that are not Christians and do sin.