relics

[FireDragon76]

I'm surprised the topic of relics have never been discussed here before.

Right around the year 150 we see evidence for the veneration of a saint's body:

".. each of the faithful always vied with one another as to which of them would be first to touch his body. For he had always been honored, even before his martyrdom, for his holy life." (Martyrdom of Polycarp 13:2)"

"Thus we, having afterwards taken up his bones, more valuable than precious stones, laid them where it was suitable. (Martyrdom of Polycarp 18:2)

Compare that story to this one from the Bible:

"Now God worked unusual miracles by the hands of Paul, so that even handkerchiefs or aprons were brought from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out of them" (Acts 19:11-12)

"Then Elisha died, and they buried him. And the raiding bands from Moab invaded the land in the spring of the year. So it was, as they were burying a man, that suddenly they spied a band of raiders; and they put the man in the tomb of Elisha; and when the man was let down and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived and stood on his feet." (2 Kings 13:20-21)

 

[prodromos]

Everytime I bring up the miracle working myrrh streaming relics of St Demetrios of Thessaloniki, it usually kills the thread. No one wants to acknowledge or deal with something so far removed from their particular Christian cultural experience.
I've also had the opportunity to venerate the left hand of St Mary Magdalan which not only is completely whole, no sign of any decay, but also maintains body temperature.
The Saints are indeed alive!

 

[Catherineanne]

I have no problem with second or third class relics; I have some myself. I used to have more but gave them away to a priest who had none. I find first class relics a bit of a challenge, though. It seems disrespectful to me. But that is just me; I don't like human remains in museums, and I don't like them on display in churches or anywhere else.

If I could choose I would make sure all human remains are respectfully interred or at least enclosed away from view in a tomb. Not kept in cardboard boxes in museums, in glass cases or cut into bits to be venerated.

In relation to the above quotes, when I lived in Greece I was told that the Orthodox custom still is for bodies to be buried for a time then after a year or more the bones are taken out of the grave, anointed and put into an ossuary. I think this is what is described with Paul's remains; it is a one off transfer of the bones to their final resting place, not a routine event.

The handkerchiefs can be used forever; no problem with that. The bones belong in the ground, imo.

But I have no problem with the principle of secondary or tertiary relics. Or primary if they are parts of the cross or nails etc. YMMV.

 

[FireDragon76]

I do know there are a few Anglican churches that have sacred relics. I do not know about Scandinavian Lutheran churches.

I love going to antique stores, this might sound strange but they are some of the most spiritual secular places. And I love my apartment filled with antiques. I think the veneration of relics is something similar. That God grants miracles through them by faith is not surprising.

I don't own any relics but it might be nice to have a few second or third class relics. But, I have heard that selling of relics themselves is a canonical offense worthy of excommunication- I am not sure that applies to all relics or just first class relics.

I think Luther and Calvin were more men of the word than the image, both being academics surrounded by books. And the theology of relics at the time tied them in so much with the Roman sacramental system, and specifically indulgences, that they probably could not appreciate the spiritual value of them except to "fleece the faithful" of money and faith.

 

[Open Heart]

Compare that story to this one from the Bible:

Don't forget that in the book of Jude, Satan and Michael fight over the relics of Moses.

 

[FireDragon76]

According to Jewish tradition and apocrypha, Moses body was taken to heaven, hence why Satan and Michael fought over it.

 

[Tigger45]

I used to believe relics were just religious artifacts until one of the times I touched the hem of an Antiochian Orthodox priest carrying the Eucharist through the church during DL. Now I 'know' objects can be infused with the grace and power of God.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I used to believe relics were just religious artifacts until one of the times I touched the hem of an Antiochian Orthodox priest carrying the Eucharist through the church during DL. Now I 'know' objects can be infused with the grace and power of God.

Now you've piqued my curiosity. What was infused with the grace and power of God? Was it the hem, the robe, the priest, or the Eucharist? What did you actually experience? Are you aware what is taught in Malachi about something unholy touching a holy garment?

 

[Tigger45]

Now you've piqued my curiosity. What was infused with the grace and power of God? Was it the hem, the robe, the priest, or the Eucharist? What did you actually experience? Are you aware what is taught in Malachi about something unholy touching a holy garment?

Matthew 9:20-22
But a woman who had been suffering from a hemorrhage for twelve years came up behind him and touched the edge of his cloak. For she kept saying to herself, "If only I touch his cloak, I will be healed." But when Yahusha turned and saw her he said, "Have courage, daughter! Your faith has made you well." And the woman was healed from that hour

Notice Jesus didn't have a problem with it. I'll go with Him on that.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Matthew 9:20-22
But a woman who had been suffering from a hemorrhage for twelve years came up behind him and touched the edge of his cloak. For she kept saying to herself, "If only I touch his cloak, I will be healed." But when Yahusha turned and saw her he said, "Have courage, daughter! Your faith has made you well." And the woman was healed from that hour

Notice Jesus didn't have a problem with it. I'll go with Him on that.

Please note that I did not request biblical support for your experience, but further explication of exactly what happened and what you believe to be the source. So, please answer my questions. Thank you.

 

[Tigger45]

Please note that I did not request biblical support for your experience, but further explication of exactly what happened and what you believe to be the source. So, please answer my questions. Thank you.

But you brought up Malachi.

 

[bbbbbbb]

But you brought up Malachi.

I did, indeed, not realizing that it would distract you from answering my questions. I apologize for the distraction and ask you again to reply to my questions.

Thank you.

 

[patricius79]

I'm surprised the topic of relics have never been discussed here before.

Right around the year 150 we see evidence for the veneration of a saint's body:

".. each of the faithful always vied with one another as to which of them would be first to touch his body. For he had always been honored, even before his martyrdom, for his holy life." (Martyrdom of Polycarp 13:2)"

"Thus we, having afterwards taken up his bones, more valuable than precious stones, laid them where it was suitable. (Martyrdom of Polycarp 18:2)

Compare that story to this one from the Bible:

"Now God worked unusual miracles by the hands of Paul, so that even handkerchiefs or aprons were brought from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out of them" (Acts 19:11-12)

"Then Elisha died, and they buried him. And the raiding bands from Moab invaded the land in the spring of the year. So it was, as they were burying a man, that suddenly they spied a band of raiders; and they put the man in the tomb of Elisha; and when the man was let down and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived and stood on his feet." (2 Kings 13:20-21)

What a great OP! Even secular people recognize relics in some sense, as they pay a great deal of money to preserve and protect the bodily remains of their loved ones from the elements.

 

[bbbbbbb]

But you brought up Malachi.

Please note that I did not intend for you to derail our conversation rather than having you explain your experience. So, please answer my questions. Thank you.

 

[prodromos]

I just recently learned from Catholic Answers forum that Catholic Churches are no longer required to have relics placed within them. In the Orthodox Church, every priest receives an altar cloth from their bishop with relics sewn into the corners. This is placed on top of the altar when serving the Divine Liturgy and a priest cannot serve the liturgy without it. The advantage of the altar cloth is that any flat surface can become an altar.
I was very surprised to learn the Catholic Church has dispensed with this tradition.

 

[Open Heart]

I just recently learned from Catholic Answers forum that Catholic Churches are no longer required to have relics placed within them.

I'm shocked. I thought that all Catholic altars had relics in them.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I just recently learned from Catholic Answers forum that Catholic Churches are no longer required to have relics placed within them. In the Orthodox Church, every priest receives an altar cloth from their bishop with relics sewn into the corners. This is placed on top of the altar when serving the Divine Liturgy and a priest cannot serve the liturgy without it. The advantage of the altar cloth is that any flat surface can become an altar.
I was very surprised to learn the Catholic Church has dispensed with this tradition.

I must admit that this also comes as quite a surprise to me. Perhaps a Catholic poster can verify this for us.

I have mixed feelings about this issue. Without relics in a Catholic Church, especially in or on the altar, what sanctifies the altar? Secondarily, what sanctifies the relics?

 

[Open Heart]

what sanctifies the relics

The personal holiness of the saint, who is usually a martyr. The tradition of relics in the altars goes back to the days when Christians hid in the catecombs, and said eucharistic liturgy on the tombs of the martyrs.

 

[Daniel Hoseini]

Relic: the right handpalm of John Chrysostom in the Filotheou monastery, Mount Athos. 1600 years incorrupt

Incorrupt body of Alexander Svirsky in the monastery named after him. 500 years incorrupt, even after being hidden during the 70 years of communist totalitarian regime.