Rate the historicity of Bible books

Select books of the Bible that seem historical

  • Genesis before Abraham

    Votes: 2 14.3%
  • Genesis Abraham thru Joseph

    Votes: 3 21.4%
  • Exodus thru Joshua

    Votes: 4 28.6%
  • Judges

    Votes: 5 35.7%
  • Kings narratives of Elijah / Elisha

    Votes: 4 28.6%
  • Esther

    Votes: 4 28.6%
  • Job

    Votes: 2 14.3%
  • Jonah

    Votes: 3 21.4%
  • Daniel

    Votes: 4 28.6%
  • None of the above

    Votes: 8 57.1%

  • Total voters
    14

cloudyday2

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(This is my first attempt at creating a thread with a poll, so I hope it works.)

I'm going to list some books of the Old Testament, and you can select those that seem historically factual.

You can select more than one option, and there is a "none of the above" option too.
 
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JackRT

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(This is my first attempt at creating a thread with a poll, so I hope it works.)
I'm going to list some books of the Old Testament, and you can select those that seem historically factual.

You can select more than one option, and there is a "none of the above" option too.

Genesis and Exodus are for the most part mythological but they may contain some elements of historical fact. Job, Ruth and Jonah are parables written to address societal evils at the time. Daniel appears to be historical but was written almost entirely after the fact.
 
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cloudyday2

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Daniel appears to be historical but was written almost entirely after the fact.
A big question with Daniel is whether the fulfilled prophecies were penned after the predicted events had already happened. What's your opinion?
 
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cloudyday2

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Jok

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Here is an article with a theory on Exodus.
The Historical Exodus - TheTorah.com
A lot of things just become more probable IMO if the numbers are much smaller. So although I do not pretend to side with the following statements because I claim to be some expert in Hebrew, I do side with them because the smallers number would cause everything to make much more sense to me; a literal reading of Numbers 1-3 indicates that Israel had a population of about 2,000,000 - 3,000,000. Many scholars claim that that such a literal interpretation is not intended by the text because the common interpretation of “thousand” in Numbers 1-3 is better interpreted as a military “squad”, and a squad is about 10 men. Well that is huge, that is a factor of 1 to 100, making the total more like 30,000.
 
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solid_core

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My bet:

More or less historical:
Genesis Abraham thru Joseph
Exodus thru Joshua
Judges
Kings narratives of Elijah / Elisha
Daniel

Mostly mythological, but can contain historical events:
Genesis before Abraham, Job, Jonah

---

I do not think Esther belongs in the Bible.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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It all depends what you mean by 'historically factual'. That statement itself is laden with presuppostions. Our idea of history is fairly young, as the assumed 'third person' or disinterested observed history writing is fairly recent. Even then, it is an affectation, as no one is really being objective but writing within their cultural paradigm and belief system.

So, when we write on the ancient world, we mine ancient texts for what we can slot comfortably into our idea of 'if a modern person had been present then, what would he have perceived occured', and call this History. We cannot even be sure what happened a week ago was factual, as look at the different ways various media or sources interpret or present events - and now we need to look at 2000-3000 year old texts and decide this?

That said, I believe a lot of information is there. The writers thereof certainly believed in it, and if they were to adopt our affectation anachronistically, they would consider it 'historically factual' in all likelihood. Does all of it fit within our modern historical paradigm? Well, no. Does this mean it is in some sense not true? Also no. People used to think the Iliad and Odyssey were completely made up, but then Schlieman found Troy and Mycenae. The Hitittes in the Bible were thought fictional by the late 18th and early 19th century scholars, then the tablets of Hatussas and the Neo-Hititte states were unearthed. What is 'historically factual' is not set in stone - seeing as sometimes it is set in stone in the form of ruins or inscriptions; but then, interpretation can be the devil in the details - from things considered hoaxes like the Kensington Runestone and the Jesus Ossuary, to the Nazareth Decree ascribed to Claudius, the Arthur stone at Tintagel, or the Res Gestae of Augustus. Writings like De Situ Britanniae were considered factually accurate, only for us to set them aside as spurious later. Sufficed to say, what is historically factual today, is different from what had been historically factual a hundred years ago.

Anyway, after hedging my answer and if I adopt a persona of a 21st century historian, I would say that Kings and Chronicles certainly holds much useful historical information. This starts to dissipate as you move backwards from David onwards, but is not wholely absent. Things like Joseph's name of Zaanath Paneah certainly seem echoes of something, especially if placed next to Osarseph of Manetho or the Hyksos (who seem to have been not conquerors, but immigrants that rose to become an elite, according to new genetic evidence, before being overthrown). Others like Esther or Jonah are more literary, and even listed as Writings of the Ketuvim amongst Jews. But again, the answer depends on what epistemological meaning you apply to the concept of 'historically factual'.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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A lot of things just become more probable IMO if the numbers are much smaller. So although I do not pretend to side with the following statements because I claim to be some expert in Hebrew, I do side with them because the smallers number would cause everything to make much more sense to me; a literal reading of Numbers 1-3 indicates that Israel had a population of about 2,000,000 - 3,000,000. Many scholars claim that that such a literal interpretation is not intended by the text because the common interpretation of “thousand” in Numbers 1-3 is better interpreted as a military “squad”, and a squad is about 10 men. Well that is huge, that is a factor of 1 to 100, making the total more like 30,000.
Let us look at another example: Xerxes' army at Thermopylae. The Greek accounts say 1000000 men fought under the Great King. Modern historians trust the general gist of the Greek accounts, even accepting the 300 Spartans and the 6000 or so other Greeks at Thermopylae, but decrease Xerxes' army to a more manageable 60000 to 300000, depending whose estimate. The Greeks are still grossly outnumbered, but the forage and logistics seem more believable. For some reason, we are often not allowed this leeway for the Exodus.

Or mediaeval battle accounts often list nice round numbers of 20000 soldiers or the like, then when you look at surviving muster rolls, we see numbers down to 7000 or less. Such numbers are often inexact, when documents aren't even trying to accurately reflect them. The point is the scale, the many against the few, more often than not. Talk of large numbers are often more to create the idea of 'a lot'.
 
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cloudyday2

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It all depends what you mean by 'historically factual'. That statement itself is laden with presuppostions. Our idea of history is fairly young, as the assumed 'third person' or disinterested observed history writing is fairly recent. Even then, it is an affectation, as no one is really being objective but writing within their cultural paradigm and belief system.

So, when we write on the ancient world, we mine ancient texts for what we can slot comfortably into our idea of 'if a modern person had been present then, what would he have perceived occured', and call this History. We cannot even be sure what happened a week ago was factual, as look at the different ways various media or sources interpret or present events - and now we need to look at 2000-3000 year old texts and decide this?

That said, I believe a lot of information is there. The writers thereof certainly believed in it, and if they were to adopt our affectation anachronistically, they would consider it 'historically factual' in all likelihood. Does all of it fit within our modern historical paradigm? Well, no. Does this mean it is in some sense not true? Also no. People used to think the Iliad and Odyssey were completely made up, but then Schlieman found Troy and Mycenae. The Hitittes in the Bible were thought fictional by the late 18th and early 19th century scholars, then the tablets of Hatussas and the Neo-Hititte states were unearthed. What is 'historically factual' is not set in stone - seeing as sometimes it is set in stone in the form of ruins or inscriptions; but then, interpretation can be the devil in the details - from things considered hoaxes like the Kensington Runestone and the Jesus Ossuary, to the Nazareth Decree ascribed to Claudius, the Arthur stone at Tintagel, or the Res Gestae of Augustus. Writings like De Situ Britanniae were considered factually accurate, only for us to set them aside as spurious later. Sufficed to say, what is historically factual today, is different from what had been historically factual a hundred years ago.

Anyway, after hedging my answer and if I adopt a persona of a 21st century historian, I would say that Kings and Chronicles certainly holds much useful historical information. This starts to dissipate as you move backwards from David onwards, but is not wholely absent. Things like Joseph's name of Zaanath Paneah certainly seem echoes of something, especially if placed next to Osarseph of Manetho or the Hyksos (who seem to have been not conquerors, but immigrants that rose to become an elite, according to new genetic evidence, before being overthrown). Others like Esther or Jonah are more literary, and even listed as Writings of the Ketuvim amongst Jews. But again, the answer depends on what epistemological meaning you apply to the concept of 'historically factual'.
Yep, I found myself wishing the poll allowed a number from 1 o 10 or some other way to allow for more fine tuning of responses.

I personally consider all the options listed to be more fiction than fact, but I was curious to see if those who venerate the Bible rate some options more fictional than others. For example, do they believe in the miracles of Elijah while not believing in the Garden of Eden.
 
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Semper-Fi

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All of the bible is historically factual.

Can We Trust the Book of Daniel?
Can We Trust the Book of Daniel?

Was the book of Daniel written before or after the
incredible events it claims to have prophesied?

The book of Daniel is evidence that a divine Being
inspired the Bible. But Skeptics use several arguments
to make their point, and make God prophesies void.

To the critics, it is impossible that such incredibly
accurate prophecies could have been made in advance.
-

Biblical Names Confirmed Through Archaeology
Biblical Names Confirmed Through Archaeology
 
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FireDragon76

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Genesis and Exodus are for the most part mythological but they may contain some elements of historical fact. Job, Ruth and Jonah are parables written to address societal evils at the time. Daniel appears to be historical but was written almost entirely after the fact.

Job is theology set in a fanciful tale. So is Jonah, for that matter.
 
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Oseas

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A big question with Daniel is whether the fulfilled prophecies were penned after the predicted events had already happened. What's your opinion?
The book of Daniel has several prophetic messages: Which ones do you want to know?

The chapter 2 of the book, for example, is about the dream of Nebuchaddnezzar's dream of the Great Image, and the interpretation of the dream God had given to the king was of prophetical content (similar the dream given to Pharaoh times ago). That said, what matter is not if the book was written after the fulfilment of the prophecies, as you are insinuating, but the perfect accuracy of the interpretation of the king's dream that brings a prophetic message to be fulfilled in about 2500 years.
In my perception, you don’t know, don’t have the knowledge, don’t even imagine, that
we are living now, even now, and from now on, in the time corresponding to the two feet and the respective 10 toes of the Great Image, exactly according the prophecy described from the verses 41 to 45 of chapter 2.

This fact simply points out that Daniel's prophetic message in the chapter 2 is not fully fulfilled yet.
This is a proof that has no any sense what you suggest in your post, that is, "the prophecies were penned after the predicted events had already happened". No true as is showed by the exposed above.

Furthermore, even the king himself worshiped Daniel and offered him gifts. Daniel 2:v.46-49 CJB-Complete Jewish Bible(
Bible Gateway.com)
46 Then King N’vukhadnetzar fell on his face and worshipped Dani’el; he ordered that a grain offering and incense be offered to him. 47 To Dani’el the king said, “Your God is indeed the God of gods, the Lord of kings and a revealer of secrets, since you have been able to reveal this secret.” 48 The king promoted Dani’el to a high rank, gave him many rich gifts and made him governor of the entire province of Bavel and head of all the sages of Bavel. 49 At Dani’el’s request, the king put Shadrakh, Meishakh and ‘Aved-N’go in charge of the affairs of the province of Bavel, while Dani’el remained in attendance on the king.

 
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Oseas

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Daniel appears to be historical but was written almost entirely after the fact.

Not true. JESUS referred to the book of Daniel saying: When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand. This prophecy written in Daniel 12:v.11 does not fulfilled yet. This will fulfil henceforwards.

Inclusive Daniel 11:v.31-33 fulffilled not yet:
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many:...
 
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cloudyday2

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The book of Daniel has several prophetic messages: Which ones do you want to know?

The chapter 2 of the book, for example, is about the dream of Nebuchaddnezzar's dream of the Great Image, and the interpretation of the dream God had given to the king was of prophetical content (similar the dream given to Pharaoh times ago). That said, what matter is not if the book was written after the fulfilment of the prophecies, as you are insinuating, but the perfect accuracy of the interpretation of the king's dream that brings a prophetic message to be fulfilled in about 2500 years.
In my perception, you don’t know, don’t have the knowledge, don’t even imagine, that we are living now, even now, and from now on, in the time corresponding to the two feet and the respective 10 toes of the Great Image, exactly according the prophecy described from the verses 41 to 45 of chapter 2.

This fact simply points out that Daniel's prophetic message in the chapter 2 is not fully fulfilled yet. This is a proof that has no any sense what you suggest in your post, that is, "the prophecies were penned after the predicted events had already happened". No true as is showed by the exposed above.

Furthermore, even the king himself worshiped Daniel and offered him gifts. Daniel 2:v.46-49 CJB-Complete Jewish Bible(Bible Gateway.com)
46 Then King N’vukhadnetzar fell on his face and worshipped Dani’el; he ordered that a grain offering and incense be offered to him. 47 To Dani’el the king said, “Your God is indeed the God of gods, the Lord of kings and a revealer of secrets, since you have been able to reveal this secret.” 48 The king promoted Dani’el to a high rank, gave him many rich gifts and made him governor of the entire province of Bavel and head of all the sages of Bavel. 49 At Dani’el’s request, the king put Shadrakh, Meishakh and ‘Aved-N’go in charge of the affairs of the province of Bavel, while Dani’el remained in attendance on the king.
I would imagine the final kingdom of baked clay mixed with iron would be an alliance of incompatible nations formed for some short-term purpose such as the Battle of Armageddon.
 
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Oseas

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I just think that there’s a major error of interpretation in Exodus that drastically inflates the number of sojourners (making it seem historically impossible)
Ok, it is your opinion. But what prevails is the Word of God. In addition, Moses was extremely capable and skilled, and knew what he was talking about when writing Exodus. By the way, when JESUS was praying,
the fashion of His countenance was altered, and His raiment was white and glistering. And behold, there
talked with Him two men, which were Moses and Elias: Who appeared in glory, and spake of His decease which JESUS should accomplish at Jerusalem.
 
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Zoness

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I don't think any of them are historical other than the legal declarations and maybe the lineages announced in many of the books, errors aside. The Pentateuch is the most mixed bag, I think Genesis and Exodus especially can be seen as purely mythical accounts wherein scant evidence exists for their events. Moses was probably at best a mythical figure who did not author the Pentateuch but hos existence adds a lot for cohesion to the foundation of the Hebrews. The others gain a couple of points for contextualizing the circumstances of the a Hebrews in the Levant during a long period.
 
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Oseas

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I would imagine the final kingdom of baked clay mixed with iron would be an alliance of incompatible nations formed for some short-term purpose such as the Battle of Armageddon.

Oh! I am surprised with your reply, splendid, wonderful. You are 100% correct in your three conceptions:
- "alliance of incompatible nations";
- alliance "formed for some short-term purpose";
- ''such as the Battle of Armageddon".

- Would you know the extension of that "alliance between incompatible nations"? Sincerely, I like to decipher biblical enigmas/riddles. I give you a way to start decipher the first riddle: What nation do you imagine to be the clay or baked clay as you wrote?

- Could you say how long "the short-term alliance will be? Daniel prophesied about the deadline of that "alliance of short-term";

- The battle of Armageddon is not a kind of conventional war, no, absolutely no. In my understanding or vision, Armageddon is a contraction of three words: Air - Magog - Eddon. Its a profound riddle, no? The battle will be spiritual against a MONSTRUOUS religious and universal system,
figured in the Bible as a red Dragon with 7 heads, and 10 horns, and a TAIL. Terrible. Terrible. This is another great enigma to decipher: Who are the 7 heads of the red Dragon? And his 10 horns? And his TERRIBLE TAIL? Yeah, who are them?

I stop here, but actually, I haven't said everything, for now.

Any question? Feel free to ask.

Have a nice day.
 
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