question about ELCA

[FireDragon76]

I am formerly an Orthodox catechumen. I still identify with the catholic stream of Christian history, and I only left the Orthodox church because my priest told me I would not be happy there with liberal attitudes on certain social issues that many Orthodox Christians consider very important (I think you can guess which, my hint is one of them is a very sensitive topic on the forum). So he told me I should look for a different church. And it's been a few years and I'm still looking.

So, I tend to feel like maybe I'm an Anglo-Catholic type Episcopalian, but the only problem is that the local Episcopalians seem more like Presbyterians or other evangelicals. They don't even seem to emphasize the Real Presence in the Sacrament. The sermons are often pretty weird too, it's "all Penal Substitution, all the time" for some priests- half the priest at the cathedral went to a conservative Presbyterian seminary, and the sermons have this weird monergistic tinge to them - I think all good sermons should have an element of inspiration, doxology, and vision that pulls me out of myself, and these sermons don't do that.

I went to a small ELCA parish today and I liked the worship and the sermon but I don't know if I would fit in at the parish at all. My beliefs don't seem to perfectly match up with Lutheranism- I just have general catholic beliefs and I'm not even sure I believe in justification by faith alone - I never thought about it much as an Orthodox Christian, I guess I assumed God loved me and was merciful and I tried to live a life of repentance as much as I was able, without worrying too much how I would be judged in the end. I prayed for the help of saints and said the Jesus Prayer and the Trisagion two or three times a day.

I'm well-read in theology but I tend to approach things from an Eastern perspective. I just want to know if I would fit in at an ELCA Lutheran parish?

 

[Tigger45]

I attend an LCMC congregation and appreciate 'law & grace' in their sermons. Another thing I like about Lutheranism is their approach to adiaphora. I like you were an EO catechumen and where possible I incorporate aspects of Orthodoxy, especially their teachings of Tradition into my personal spirituality.

 

[FireDragon76]

Can you explain what a law and grace sermon is about? I am confused by this. In the Orthodox Church they preach that we should try to live out God's law, and when we fail, we should repent and in some cases, confess to the priest. Sermons in the EO church were usually encouragement to live a holy life, to be more forgiving, to talk about the gifts of God's grace in the sacraments, the saints, and icons, and so on, usually by discussing Jesus parables or a miracle, or the feast of a saint.

The sermon today in the ELCA church was just about Jesus being exalted to the right hand of God so that we could follow him into heaven and share in his glory, and he even talked about an Orthodox icon of the Ascension for a bit, with the mandorla wrapped around Christ, and what it meant (I already knews this, hehheh). I noticed the pastor has a lot of icons in his office, though I didn't actually get to talk to him much beyond shaking hands.

His sermon just seemed different in tone from the ones I often hear at the Episcopal cathedral which amount to "you mess up everything, but don't worry, Jesus did everything for you and took your sins away". Which always seem strange to me as my life doesn't feel uniformly imperfect. Honestly I don't usually feel like a moral failure, which is why this style of preaching seems strange. I go to church because Christ challenges me to truly live and empowers me to do so, even if I fall short there is always tomorrow to try again. Not because I feel like a moral failure. I'm not saying I'm perfect but... I don't feel like I screw up everything. Sometimes the preaching comes across as way, way too negative about the human condition.

 

[Tigger45]

Sorry I should of said law and gospel. The law condemns and the gospel is the answer.

See if this video helps. I like this guys. He speak really fast but he is entertaining.

 

[FireDragon76]

Sorry I should of said law and gospel. The law condemns and the gospel is the answer

I'm still not sure I understand. Especially because in the Orthodox Church, the Law is understood as itself merciful (or a gracious act of God), and Jews seem to have understood it that way as well.

I guess I'll have to try looking up some Lutheran sermons and listening to them to figure this out.

I have actually read some of Bonhoeffer's work. I think that guy in the video misses the point- 1930's Germany was indeed a country that used Christianity to accommodate evil. We are not talking about an insignificant problem there, tens of millions of people paid for the idolatry of the Nazi state.

 

[Tigger45]

Cool, I was just trying to help ya out cus I've watched you searching for a church body to call home for quite a while. Ya know this sub forum is very slow, I'd try posting your question about Lutheran law and gospel in the main Lutheran forum. God bless.

 

[Arcangl86]

Sorry, I didn't realize that this forum had been posted in since it happens so seldom. So, I'm currently an ELCA seminarian, but also had a period of time when I considered Orthodoxy and was an Anglo-catholic for a while. I think it's doable, but then again, I do not know enough about you to understand what you mean by stuff like "general catholic beliefs." Do you have any questions in particular?

 

[FireDragon76]

OK, well, what I mean by general catholic beliefs:

- the Eucharist is the real body and blood of Christ regardless of the faith of the recipient
- It is lawful to pray for the dead, and those prayers are not in vain or without merit
- The saints pray for us and it is not unlawful to ask for their intercessions
- Mary is traditionally understood as ever-virgin
- priests, bishops, ministers, and/or pastors, lawfully ordained or installed, have the authority to pronounce absolution of sin
- veneration of images and icons is lawful
- iconoclasm is sub-Christian, a Christological heresy.
- making the sign of the cross is lawful and pious
- the use of holy water is lawful and pious

However:

- I consider purgatory speculation.
- I do not believe that the Pope can speak infallibly, nor does communion with him constitute the Church
- I believe the Virgin Mary being immaculately conceived is speculation
- I don't accept the condignity of merit in salvation
- I don't believe in the supererogation of merit (as the Lord says, we are only unprofitable servants
- I don't accept the explanation of the council of Trent on justification
- our repentance is dependent on a changed heart, contrition, and not on confessing all our sins to a priest or to God, though I certainly believe it is a sign of sincere repentance
- I am not opposed to the doctrine of justification by faith, as long as that faith is not in opposition to love. "Pietism" and "enthusiasm" are the lesser of two evils compared to dry scholasticism.

Basically, my beliefs are "Old Catholic".

 

[Obedientiarius]

I went to a small ELCA parish today and I liked the worship and the sermon but I don't know if I would fit in at the parish at all. My beliefs don't seem to perfectly match up with Lutheranism- I just have general catholic beliefs and I'm not even sure I believe in justification by faith alone - I never thought about it much as an Orthodox Christian, I guess I assumed God loved me and was merciful and I tried to live a life of repentance as much as I was able, without worrying too much how I would be judged in the end. I prayed for the help of saints and said the Jesus Prayer and the Trisagion two or three times a day.

I'm well-read in theology but I tend to approach things from an Eastern perspective. I just want to know if I would fit in at an ELCA Lutheran parish?

I would first say that your beliefs don't need to match up 100% for you to start a new journey in a new faith community. That's sorta putting the cart before the horse. If you think you're going to keep going to a Lutheran church, at some point you should start reading some of the basics of Lutheranism, especially the Small Catechism of Luther and the Augsburg Confession. Since you're a theology geek, you may even be interested in diving right into the deep end with the Book of Concord and/or this lovely book: http://www.amazon.com/Augsburg-Constantinople-Correspondence-Theologians-Confession/dp/0916586820

For what it's worth, there are other Orthodox-inclined Lutherans out there even if it's not the norm. I myself have icons at home and use incense and candles at Vespers.

 

[FireDragon76]

Can I ask another question? Is the office of the Papacy considered Antichrist by a substantial number of ELCA Lutherans? I consider the Pope the patriarch of the west. He has had obvious influence and leadership ever after the Protestant Reformation (Vatican II comes to mind, as well as the revised common lectionary, and let's not forget the Gregorian calendar). I simply don't see him as infallible or recognize a universal jurisdiction.

Yes, I am an admitted theology geek, but I want to be a theologian also in the Eastern sense as well. One who prays and knows God is a theologian.

I'd also be curious to learn about ELCA-TEC concordats and agreements. The more I learn about the ELCA, the more I see clear differences in style and doctrine between the two churches, so I am wondering if the intercommunion agreements are due to liberalism or whether there is substantive agreement. My understanding was that the ELCA was not a confessional Lutheran body. Also, your understanding of Sola Scriptura seems different from many Anglicans and Episcopalians (there is a whole stream of Anglicanism that would consider the Bible only understood within the wider Christian tradition, so they might quote early Christian or medieval church theologians or saints in their theology).

I have to admit, I am not sure what to make of sola scriptura. I believe reason, tradition, and experience also must play a role in our theology, and that theology has to be worked out in the Christian community, being faithful not so much to the Bible in itself, but to Jesus Christ (I guess I am a bit of a charismatic, I actually believe the Holy Spirit can guide the Church). Having said that, I take the Bible very seriously, but I don't agree with the hermeneutics used by conservative Protestants.

About the icon thing... it is not just a passing or academic interest. It's rather like when a Mexican converts to a Protestant church like the Episcopalians, sometimes they end up bringing their Virgin of Guadalupe with them, they cannot shake it off, it's just part of them. The same is true for me and Eastern Orthodoxy. I prayed to the saints during difficult times as a catechumen, when I did not have the sacraments of the Church to help me, to St. Martin in particular because his first miracle happened while he was a catechumen. But also, I sought the intercessions of St. Mary of Egypt, and I had a devotion to St. Maria Skobstova of Paris as well. And of course, to the Mother of God and the Holy Forerunner (John the Baptist).

I did not "quit" the Orthodox church because I felt it was wrong in my devotions or liturgical life, or I disagreed with the style of worship or the piety. I left Orthodoxy and put off my chrismation because I had strong conflicts between conscience and the teachings of the Church on some of their teachings (LGBT rights are a social justice issue as far as I am concerned, my years of asceticism and trying hard to follow Jesus really seemed to bind my conscience even more, which I never expected). I realized Liberation Theology and other Western theologies had important things to say and the Orthodox Church was not listening. And I was distressed by the number of conservative Protestants entering the Church and it being caught up in the culture wars. I was also distressed by the superficial spirituality I sometimes saw in the converts, and outright religious idolatry and fundamentalism in other corners, and how much it was tolerated- my romantic images of Orthodoxy faded. By my faith in God and his saints did not. But I was left without a spiritual home, and the local Episcopalian church is very Reformed in character, and I am not fond of conservative Reformed theology at all.

 

[Obedientiarius]

The ELCA via the Lutheran World Federation has signed various documents with the Vatican, most notably the Joint Declaration on Justification (you should probably read this, btw). It is rare for ELCAers to regard the Papacy as antichrist today - usually we regard that position as one that was shaped by the context of the times of the Reformation.

If you want more information on the ELCA-TEC full communion agreement, here is the language of the thing itself: http://www.episcopalchurch.org/page/agreement-full-communion-called-common-mission

The ELCA is not referred to as a "confessional" body because the label "confessional" within North American Lutheranism denotes denominations that view the entire Book of Concord as fully authoritative equally - such as the Missouri and Wisconson Synods. The ELCA is confessional compared with say the Episcopal Church in that we are primarily defined in terms of our confessions of faith: Augsburg Confession, Small Catechism, etc. rather than praxis or liturgy, even if we don't regard the Lutheran confessions in the same way as some of our other Lutheran brothers and sisters do.

 

[FireDragon76]

I must have gotten lucky... the local Lutheran parish is almost "Anglo-Catholic". I have been looking for some type of church like that for some time. He is also very knowledgeable about Eastern Orthodoxy compared to many Lutherans and Protestants, he has a wall full of icons in his office, and he understands my Orthodox piety- he has no hangups with the fact I sometimes pray to the Mother of God or the saints.

I may still decide to be received into the Orthodox Church, but my wife probably will not be. She needs a good stable church home that is not demanding- she needs a lot of Gospel and not a lot of Law, if you know what I mean.

I may ask my spiritual father if I could attend the Lutheran church with her, including receiving the sacraments there (since I am afraid I could not commune from the Orthodox chalice anyways due to health reasons). But I do like the Orthodox feast days and Orthodox worship.

 

[Korah]

Say, FD76,
I can't see any difference between your beliefs and mine, maybe just that I'm older and more cynical about socially liberal politics and what I see as the idolatrous conservatism of local Orthodox converts that I ran into. Just tell any Reform School Lutherans that you're with Martin Luther himself on old-school Catholic beliefs and practice. ELCA is broad enough to incorporate your (and my) "Anglo-Catholicism". As an aside, I'm also a former Roman Catholic Charismatic Renewal born in the Holy Spirit in 1977 who left that denomination in 1992 after first converting to it in 1969. My local priest (er, in ELCA we call them pastors) wanted to bring in the Charismatic Renewal, but could not find anyone receptive but me. Such is the strange territory ELCA encompasses. You won't find anyone who believes exactly as you do, but Martin Luther comes close.

 

[FireDragon76]

I like some of the charismatic renewal. I just think its not always well integrated into the denominations practice and theology, and maybe that is why some saw it as disruptive. And some of the stuff is just a little odd, like I've been to charismatic services where the Holy Spirit is talked about impersonally.

The pastors I like best at the local Episcopal church all have some former contact with the charismatic renewal. One of them usually presides at the healing service I go to on Wednesdays. Only occasionally is it about me needing prayer, but I like the service just because I see so much of God's grace happening there compared to the usual services where they get the most spiritually inexperience person to preach the sermon and preside.

 

[Korah]

The Charismatic Renewal can be quite exciting. Things do change. Before I was baptized in the Spirit in 1977, the leading figure among Roman Catholics in the Charismatic Renewal was Fr. Francis MacNutt. Already by March 1977, however, he was the biggest scandal among us. He got dispensation from his vows and got married. I don't recall during my years with the Renewal (1977 to 1992) that we associated with him--probably many did, just didn't talk about it. Some time or other (probably just gradually) he became accepted again as one of our leaders. He leads training sessions (conducted mostly by his wife as he is too elderly) in Florida that participants rave about. You can find out about this right here in CF in the Charismatic Renewal sub-group.

 

[hurdygurdy]

Well I'm not much into reading theology but in general I'd say if you believe in God, and Jesus, and the Holy Ghost, and that they are three in one, then you are probably going to do okay. There's cultural stuff that might be different. I'd say if in doubt - go to a traditional service - especially if you come from an Orthodox background. If you go in with a desire for the experience, versus worries about the performance or the underlying narrative - then you will do just fine. Also scheduling some time with the pastor might help too - and exchanging emails/phone calls. My dad is a devout Lutheran and likes to contemplate Gnostic works (he's not necessarily in agreement with them, but he likes to read them anyways).

 

[FireDragon76]

The Evangelical Lutheran Church In America is totally apostate for supporting abortion, the perversions of homosexuality, homosexual marriage and the ordination of women to the clergy.

Well, I'm now in the ELCA so I have a different perspective now. I guess I don't find those issues such a big deal. The way my pastor explains our denominations stance on abortion, it makes more sense. The Church is a place for healing and reconciliation, not condemnation.

 

[John Yurich]

Well, I'm now in the ELCA so I have a different perspective now. I guess I don't find those issues such a big deal. The way my pastor explains our denominations stance on abortion, it makes more sense. The Church is a place for healing and reconciliation, not condemnation.

Abortion is murder of unborn babies. There is no defense for support of murder of unborn babies. And the Evangelical Lutheran Church In America is also totally apostate for support of the perversion of homosexuality, the perversion of homosexual marriage and the unscriptural support of ordination of women to the clergy. Saint Paul stated that women were not permitted to be ordained to the clergy.

 

[Arcangl86]

Abortion is murder of unborn babies. There is no defense for support of murder of unborn babies. And the Evangelical Lutheran Church In America is also totally apostate for support of the perversion of homosexuality, the perversion of homosexual marriage and the unscriptural support of ordination of women to the clergy. Saint Paul stated that women were not permitted to be ordained to the clergy.

Welcome to Christian Forums. Just so you know, it is against the site rules to teach against the teachings of a denomination in the denominational forums if you aren't a member of that denomination. In this particular forum for instance you cannot say that the teachings of the ELCA are wrong.