PSA, an essential Christian doctrine.

[Clare73]

How did God view His own death, atonement for sin ?
1- Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13
2-No man takes my life I lay it down and I will take it up again- John 10:18
3- I lay My life down for the sheep- John 10:15
4- Destroy this temple and in 3 days I will raise it up again. John 2:19
5-just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many- Matthew 20:28

6-I Am the Good Shepherd who lays down His life for the sheep- substitution, John 10:11

7-Jesus said in John 11:50- nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish- substitution

8-Jesus tells His disciples the cup of suffering that awaited Him and that they too would also drink of this cup- Matthew 20

9-This is my blood of the Covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins- Matthew 26:28

10- Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing- Luke 23:34

hope this helps !!!

None of which alters the reason the OT sacrifices were given. . .as a pattern of the NT sacrifice.

 

[ladodgers6]

​

If I may call to mind one more thing:

The righteousness (justification) imputed to us by faith (Ro 3:23, Ro 3:28, Ro 4:1-11) is a declaration of "not guilty," a sentence of acquittal, a finding of right standing with the Court (debt paid, time served). It is not the only righteousness necessary for heaven. Likewise necessary for heaven is the sanctification of obedience in the Holy Spirit, which leads to righteousness leading to holiness (Ro 6:16-19).

Amen and hallelujah, inspiring to see, people who truly understand the true Gospel that Paul preached, not a false gospel Paul warned us about, trying to be justified through the law in the flesh.

You are absolutely correct, we are imputed by the righteousness of Christ into our account, we are wrapped in the white robe of his righteousness. Stand before God declared righteous, a legal status change, and it's not based on any moral improvement on our part.

Paul says in Romans 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

​

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”​

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

So you agree with the Biblical demonstration of PSA in post #16.

Not at all as all the scriptures in my posts today show there was no wrath from the Father to the Son in the Bible . The atonement as I have shown has nothing to do with wrath .

 

[Clare73]

Not at all as all the scriptures in my posts today show there was no wrath from the Father to the Son in the Bible . The atonement as I have shown has nothing to do with wrath.

Does post #16 present wrath?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Does post #16 present wrath?

You used wrath in your post. It means anger, retribution and vengeance always which falls upon the wicked , ungodly , unjust , reprobates and never upon the Righteous , Holy, Godly, Upright , Saints etc ….

 

[ladodgers6]

Does post #16 present wrath?

Precisely! My question is why was Christ crushed, afflicted, pierced for our transgressions. Why does his wounds heal us?​

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Precisely! My question is why was Christ crushed, afflicted, pierced for our transgressions. Why does his wounds heal us?​

Now all you need is the NT writer quoting the passage and applying your “ essential “ doctrine to Christ .

But guess what none of them do and neither did Jesus. So maybe it’s your misunderstanding of Isaiah that’s the problem .

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Though often taught from the pulpit and widely accepted within Christianity, there is a common misnomer that God cannot look upon sin.

This misnomer or idea is rooted in a misunderstanding of Habakkuk 1:13, which states, "Your eyes are too pure to look upon evil." To expand upon the meaning of this verse, God cannot look at sin favorably or with complacency.

However, this verse does not state that God cannot look at sin or that He cannot allow sin in His presence. God did not turn His back on Adam when he sinned--God sought him out. God did not turn His back on David when he sinned. In the book of Job, God allowed satan in His presence for a specific purpose. Satan wanted to make a deal with God over His servant, Job. God restricted Satan, telling him that he "can do anything but touch Job" and not to "lay a hand or finger on him." In the wilderness, Jesus allowed the presence of satan (face to face).

Jesus did not turn His back on Saul when he was persecuting the church and sought him out on the Damascus Road and said to him," why are you persecuting Me?" If God did not turn His back on sinners, then neither did the Father turn His back on His only Son who is Holy, Blameless, Sinless, and Righteous just like His Father. The Father turning His back on the Son (at the cross) is not found in Scripture. Jesus ate with sinners, lived among sinners, loves sinners and He suffered and died for sinners.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Clare73]

You used wrath in your post. It means anger, retribution and vengeance always which falls upon the wicked , ungodly , unjust , reprobates and never upon the Righteous , Holy, Godly, Upright , Saints etc ….

We were not righteous before saving faith. We are righteous now only because our punishment for sin has been dealt with in Christ.

 

[ladodgers6]

We are righteous only because our punishment for sin has been dealt with in Christ.

Amen and hallelujah to that!

It was by His sinlessness that Jesus qualified Himself as the perfect sacrifice for our sins. However, our salvation requires two aspects of redemption. One, it was not only necessary for Jesus to be our substitute and receive the punishment due to our sins; (Two)He also had to fulfill the Law of God perfectly to secure the merit necessary for us to be declared righteous. This was the way to remove us from the curse of the Law that brings condemnation, death and punishment. And Life by fulfilling God's Holy that that merits Justification, Life, and Eternal Bliss!

Romans 5:15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. 20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


By Grace Alone in Christ Alone!

Know what you believe and why you believe it.​

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

We were not righteous before saving faith. We are righteous now only because our punishment for sin has been dealt with in Christ.

Where in the NT does it say the Son was punished by the Father ?

The punishment and wrath came from man. He was persecuted , punished , suffered and killed by men, not God. I provided numerous scripture in the NT confirming those facts.

 

[Clare73]

Precisely! My question is why was Christ crushed, afflicted, pierced for our transgressions. Why does his wounds heal us?​

Because our wounds are the consequences of sin, his payment for our sin removes its consequences.

 

[ladodgers6]

Where in the NT does it say the Son was punished by the Father ?

The punishment and wrath came from man. He was persecuted , punished , suffered and killed by men, not God. I provided numerous scripture in the NT confirming those facts.

First of all here's the legal debt owed due to our trespasses, and the legal demand that resides over every sinner. Colossians 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.

Now, to divert away from the Prophecy of the OT doesn't help your case at all. Because Isaiah 53 is clear and precise,​

10Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him;
he has put him to grief;
when his soul makes an offering for guilt,
​

Who is the offending party, who have we sinned against? Christ is taking our place as a substitute, this is the sacrificial Lamb, the Passover Lamb, the Paschal Lamb. Where our sins are laid, the Lamb is slaughtered; a bloody sacrifice. If Christ doesn't step in and is put forward as a propitiation, the penalty lands on us.

Romans 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

Propitiation is turning God's wrath away from us to Christ, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross (Col. 2:14).​

 

[ladodgers6]

We were not righteous before saving faith. We are righteous now only because our punishment for sin has been dealt with in Christ.

Exactly, and because we receive the righteousness of Christ through Faith Alone apart from works of the Law.

 

[ladodgers6]

Though often taught from the pulpit and widely accepted within Christianity, there is a common misnomer that God cannot look upon sin.

This misnomer or idea is rooted in a misunderstanding of Habakkuk 1:13, which states, "Your eyes are too pure to look upon evil." To expand upon the meaning of this verse, God cannot look at sin favorably or with complacency.

However, this verse does not state that God cannot look at sin or that He cannot allow sin in His presence. God did not turn His back on Adam when he sinned--God sought him out. God did not turn His back on David when he sinned. In the book of Job, God allowed satan in His presence for a specific purpose. Satan wanted to make a deal with God over His servant, Job. God restricted Satan, telling him that he "can do anything but touch Job" and not to "lay a hand or finger on him." In the wilderness, Jesus allowed the presence of satan (face to face).

Jesus did not turn His back on Saul when he was persecuting the church and sought him out on the Damascus Road and said to him," why are you persecuting Me?" If God did not turn His back on sinners, then neither did the Father turn His back on His only Son who is Holy, Blameless, Sinless, and Righteous just like His Father. The Father turning His back on the Son (at the cross) is not found in Scripture. Jesus ate with sinners, lived among sinners, loves sinners and He suffered and died for sinners.

hope this helps !!!

Okay, when Moses ask God if he can se his face, what did God say?

 

[ladodgers6]

Where in the NT does it say the Son was punished by the Father ?

The punishment and wrath came from man. He was persecuted , punished , suffered and killed by men, not God. I provided numerous scripture in the NT confirming those facts.

So why was he pierced for our transgression? How are we healed by his wounds?

 

[ladodgers6]

You used wrath in your post. It means anger, retribution and vengeance always which falls upon the wicked , ungodly , unjust , reprobates and never upon the Righteous , Holy, Godly, Upright , Saints etc ….

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

First of all here's the legal debt owed due to our trespasses, and the legal demand that resides over every sinner. Colossians 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.

Now, to divert away from the Prophecy of the OT doesn't help your case at all. Because Isaiah 53 is clear and precise,​

10Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him;
he has put him to grief;
when his soul makes an offering for guilt,
​

Who is the offending party, who have we sinned against? Christ is taking our place as a substitute, this is the sacrificial Lamb, the Passover Lam, the Paschal Lamb. Where our sins on laid, the the Lamb is slaughtered; a bloody sacrifice. If Christ doesn't step in and is put forward as a propitiation.

Romans 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

Propitiation is turning God's wrath away from us to himself, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross (Col. 2:14).​

Now if you want to say Gods wrath was turned away I’m on board. But if you really mean He took Gods wrath Himself I’m not. The first is biblical the second is not.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Well then you have a huge problem on your hands there. Then how in your position explain why Christ had to suffer what he did?​

Where does the Bible say he HAD to suffer the way he did?

First, you say there's only death, no punishment.​

No I didn't, you put that in my mouth. The Bible says there is death, then judgement, then punishment - in that order.

So explain why is Christ being punished, crushed, smitten, stricken, pierced, afflicted, chastised, grieved, sorrow, oppressed, slaughtered, and hung on a tree. This is just to name a few. There is still the crown of horns, spear in his side, the lashing, his hair being pulled in clumps, he was disfigured.​

Because the Romans were cruel. They did that to hundreds of people on a regular basis.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit

Yes He did suffer like I said with many scriptures that affirm it was by the hands of wicked men who were responsible, not the Father.