Proof that Isaiah 6:9,10 does not underpin Calvinism's divine reprobation

[sdowney717]

But that is not the intuitive understanding of such a comparison. Look at what Jesus says in the emboldened part:

Matthew 13:14-16
“In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
‘YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;
FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.’
“But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear.

In other words, 'they won't see and hear, for if they did they would be healed - but you see and hear so.......'

What makes you think Judas was healed or Judas could see?
Judas went to hell. Judas did not believe Jesus was the messiah, the Christ.
Would not be right of God to send a believer to hell. Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?

Jesus asks, who do men say that I am?, some thought Him a prophet, some a teacher. The correct answer only came from Peter, and Jesus said it was revealed to Peter from God. What about the others, doubting Thomas, was Thomas healed so he could see? Not until after the Resurrection did they understand and really see. Jesus opened their minds to understand the scriptures.

So the healing you keep talking about to see and understand did not happen at the beginning, so Judas was not 'healed' in his spirit or mind. The 'healing' of their understanding happens after HIS Resurrection. And it was a work of God that Jesus did for them so they could know the truth.

Luke 24

36 While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”

37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”

40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 41 And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate it in their presence.

44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”

 

[janxharris]

I am addressing your post. You think that Judas is representative of every man.

Judas was a man like any other. You have not dealt with post #94.

You are suggesting that Judas was in some way different?

 

[janxharris]

What makes you think Judas was healed or Judas could see?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7812352-10/#post65276809

Jesus asks, who do men say that I am?, some thought Him a prophet, some a teacher. The correct answer only came from Peter, and Jesus said it was revealed to Peter from God. What about the others, doubting Thomas, was Thomas healed so he could see? Not until after the Resurrection did they understand and really see. Jesus opened their minds to understand the scriptures.

Let's stick with the OP

So the healing you keep talking about to see and understand did not happen at the beginning, so Judas was not 'healed' in his spirit or mind. The 'healing' of their understanding happens after HIS Resurrection. And it was a work of God that Jesus did for them so they could know the truth.

The OP is pretty specific - it's best we stick with it.

Luke 24

Pretty pointless if God unconditionally elected who would believe. Instead, God created a world that had real worth where people could choose to believe or not. Under your theology, people aren't much different to computer software programmes.

Please stay with the OP.

 

[janxharris]

What makes you think Judas was healed or Judas could see?
Judas went to hell. Judas did not believe Jesus was the messiah, the Christ.
Would not be right of God to send a believer to hell. Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?

Jesus asks, who do men say that I am?, some thought Him a prophet, some a teacher. The correct answer only came from Peter, and Jesus said it was revealed to Peter from God. What about the others, doubting Thomas, was Thomas healed so he could see? Not until after the Resurrection did they understand and really see. Jesus opened their minds to understand the scriptures.

So the healing you keep talking about to see and understand did not happen at the beginning, so Judas was not 'healed' in his spirit or mind. The 'healing' of their understanding happens after HIS Resurrection. And it was a work of God that Jesus did for them so they could know the truth.

Luke 24

What happens to those that 'see with their eyes, hear with their ears and understand with their heart'?

Would address that question please?

 

[sdowney717]

What happens to those that 'see with their eyes, hear with their ears and understand with their heart'?

Would address that question please?

The healing of blind minds and understanding was always dependent on Divine revelation to the hearer. For example Peter telling Jesus He was God's Christ.

Jesus said this about Judas, 'I do not speak concerning all of you', He was mentioning Judas was excluded.

Jesus Identifies His Betrayer

18 “I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.’[c] 19 Now I tell you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe that I am He. 20 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who receives whomever I send receives Me; and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.”

21 When Jesus had said these things, He was troubled in spirit, and testified and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, one of you will betray Me.” 22 Then the disciples looked at one another, perplexed about whom He spoke.

 

[Hammster]

Judas was a man like any other. You have not dealt with post #94.

You are suggesting that Judas was in some way different?

I'm asking you about Judas, since you've made him central. Was he healed? If so, of what?

 

[janxharris]

I'm asking you about Judas, since you've made him central. Was he healed? If so, of what?

Why don't you want to deal with post #94? You contend that those (in Matthew 13) that fit the Isaiah description are reprobates, but when I point out that Isaiah specifies the obverse for those that do see and hear you won't answer. Why not?

Matthew 13:15-16
'...otherwise they would see with their eyes, hear with their ears, and understand with their heart and return, and I would heal them.' “But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear."

Obviously, it is your premise that is wrong. Please deal with this first.

 

[janxharris]

The healing of blind minds and understanding was always dependent on Divine revelation to the hearer. For example Peter telling Jesus He was God's Christ.

Jesus said this about Judas, 'I do not speak concerning all of you', He was mentioning Judas was excluded.

Jesus Identifies His Betrayer

Where does Jesus ever say that He unconditionally elected such and such a man for salvation, but such and such other man will be passed over and so won't be saved?

 

[cygnusx1]

Where does Jesus ever say that He unconditionally elected such and such a man for salvation, but such and such other man will be passed over and so won't be saved?

in order to see you must look in the right place , is it profitable to spend precious time and money on a wild goose chase ?

the method :

where does it say *enter any doctrine you dispute here* ? now pick a passage that doesnt deal with the doctrine being questioned !!!

its an extremely bad approach to finding the truth

 

[janxharris]

in order to see you must look in the right place , is it profitable to spend precious time and money on a wild goose chase ?

the method :

where does it say *enter any doctrine you dispute here* ? now pick a passage that doesnt deal with the doctrine being questioned !!!

its an extremely bad approach to finding the truth

And when we examine Isaiah 6:9,10 closely in the context of Matthew 13, we see that it does not underpin Calvinism's divine election/reprobation.

Matthew 13:15-16
'...otherwise they would see with their eyes, hear with their ears, and understand with their heart and return, and I would heal them.' “But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear."

1. What happens to those that 'see with their eyes, hear with their ears and understand with their heart'?

2. Does Judas see and hear?

 

[cygnusx1]

 

[janxharris]

Good one.

 

[Hammster]

Why don't you want to deal with post #94? You contend that those (in Matthew 13) that fit the Isaiah description are reprobates, but when I point out that Isaiah specifies the obverse for those that do see and hear you won't answer. Why not?

Matthew 13:15-16
'...otherwise they would see with their eyes, hear with their ears, and understand with their heart and return, and I would heal them.' “But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear."

Obviously, it is your premise that is wrong. Please deal with this first.

We'll do it this way, then. Does everyone who hears and sees get healed, and what does that mean?

 

[janxharris]

We'll do it this way, then. Does everyone who hears and sees get healed, and what does that mean?

I did ask you a question:

You contend that those (in Matthew 13) that fit the Isaiah description are reprobates, but when I point out that Isaiah specifies the obverse for those that do see and hear you won't answer. Why not?

Matthew 13:15-16
'...otherwise they would see with their eyes, hear with their ears, and understand with their heart and return, and I would heal them.' “But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear."

Obviously, it is your premise that is wrong. Please deal with this first.

 

[Hammster]

I did ask you a question:

You contend that those (in Matthew 13) that fit the Isaiah description are reprobates, but when I point out that Isaiah specifies the obverse for those that do see and hear you won't answer. Why not?

Matthew 13:15-16
'...otherwise they would see with their eyes, hear with their ears, and understand with their heart and return, and I would heal them.' “But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear."

Obviously, it is your premise that is wrong. Please deal with this first.

You are the OP. It's incumbent upon you to defend your premise.

Are all who hear and see healed, and what does that mean?

 

[janxharris]

You are the OP. It's incumbent upon you to defend your premise.

Are all who hear and see healed, and what does that mean?

It is your premise that leads to the contradiction. You have it that Isaiah 6 delineates reprobates, but you can't say that it also delineates the elect because it would include Judas. And yet Isaiah clearly differentiates the two groups:

Matthew 13:15-16
'...otherwise they would see with their eyes, hear with their ears, and understand with their heart and return, and I would heal them.' “But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear."

Clearly, if Isaiah is describing the reprobate, then he is also describing the elect. Your premise is wrong. You are trying to throw doubt on what seeing and hearing entails, but you are fine with what you think not hearing and seeing entails.

Are you going to deal with this or not?

 

[Hammster]

Matthew 13:10-16
The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?” He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: “‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’ But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.

Not only does Jesus not include Judas in those that Calvinists would call the reprobates, but He positively puts Him in the obverse - the elect.

There can be only one conclusion - Isaiah 6:9,10 does not underpin Calvinism's doctrine of divine election/reprobation.

I guess I have to go back to the OP.

Let's say that you're right. What is Jesus saying? Is he saying that everyone who hears and sees is healed? If so, what does it mean to be healed?

 

[Hammster]

I didn't change any content. I'm asking the OP to defend his premise. Perfectly acceptable.

 

[Hammster]

So you are unable to defend your assertion regarding Isaiah 6 and divine reprobation then?

Hey OP, could you look at post 117 please? It goes right to your premise in post 1. Thanks.

 

[janxharris]

Anybody going to refute the OP?