Plymouth Brethren and Egalitarianism

[FaithfulPilgrim]

I’m interested in the Plymouth Brethren Movement, particularly the Open Brethren variety, and I’d like to know what their stance on women in the ministry is.

Given that they are a conservative denomination, I wouldn’t be surprised if they are complementarians, but given that each congregation is independent and that the Open Brethren are more, well, “Open” and in line with modern Evangelicalism, there might be some congregations that hold an egalitarian stance.

Does anyone have any personal experience with them, or know what their stance is?

 

[mkgal1]

We have a few different "Brethren" churches here...but I think they have a different origin (so their framework of theology and missions may be different).

One church here has the label: Church of the Brethren. I've attended there once (and follow them on social media). They have a female pastor and are committed to seeing the dignity in ALL people. Their page says their origin is Germany....and the Plymouth Brethren were founded by George Mueller in England. Do you know about Mueller and his orphanage?

This is the main site for the Church of the Brethren: Welcome | Church of the Brethren

Are you in North America? You may want to check out a COB church... I do believe they are egalitarian.

 

[FireDragon76]

German Brethren are VERY distinct from English Brethren. English Brethren were fiercly anti-Establishment and anti-Catholic, the originators of many ideas associated with Anglo-American Fundamentalism. German and German-American Brethren were simply Pietist groups that broke with Lutheranism or the Reformed churches. German Pietism was not necessarily anti-Catholic and they tended to embrace a quasi-postmillenialism rather than dispensationalism.

Some of my ancestors were German-American Brethren. They had alot in common with Methodists or Pietist Lutherans.

 

[David Kent]

I’m interested in the Plymouth Brethren Movement, particularly the Open Brethren variety, and I’d like to know what their stance on women in the ministry is.

Given that they are a conservative denomination, I wouldn’t be surprised if they are complementarians, but given that each congregation is independent and that the Open Brethren are more, well, “Open” and in line with modern Evangelicalism, there might be some congregations that hold an egalitarian stance.

Does anyone have any personal experience with them, or know what their stance is?

Yes I was in the Open Brethren for years. I can only say what the were like when I was with them I left them in 1976 when we moved to a town where the only Brethren although supposed to be open were not really. Just before we moved the assembly as they call their meeting houses, held their annual conference and I attended and was invited with my wife to stay for refreshments afterwards. My wife did not attend the meeting but looked around the town, but we all stayed for refreshments. We got chatting to a couple on the opposite side of the table, and one of the members who was serving, came to our table. The man we were speaking with said "Fred this family are soon moving to this town." Fred said "Oh Yes" and walked away. No other members of that church spoke to us. We never attended there.

The Brethren hold their "Breaking of Bread" service every Sunday morning, and every male member was entitled to take part and give ministry or announce a hymn. Most had unaccompanied singing to enable members to concentrate on the communion service. To "Break Bread you would expect to be a baptised member or bring a letter of commendation from the elders of a like minded assembly.

No women were allowed to preach, or teach. That was while we were there.

I cannot say for sure but I think it is mostly different now. Several had changed their name to Evangelical Church, and I know two that now call themselves Christian Fellowship.

The Evening service was a Gospel service. And usually the preacher was a visiting Brother from a like minded church.

In my current town there were two Gospel Halls, one changed to an Evangelical Church but now is a Christian Fellowship the other got down to three members and is now closed down. They were less open I believe and someone told me they were Kelleyite.

They were responsible for adopting and spreading the Pre Tribulation Rapture teaching in the UK and eventually throughout the world. This teaching was mainly confined to the Brethren and the Catholic Apostolic Church till late into the 19th century.

When they began, they were Calvinist but I never heard anything like Calvinism preached there.

 

[David Kent]

and the Plymouth Brethren were founded by George Mueller in England. Do you know about Mueller and his orphanage?

Yes I know about his orphanage.

The Plymouth Brethren were not founded by George Mueller. They began in Dublin in Ireland. Where several similar groups met One comprised of disenchanted dissenters, another be disenchanted churchmen and another comprising of both. Some of these coalesced around Edward Cronin. Lady Powerscourt associated with the Brethren and after attending some prophetic conferences of the Irvingites in Albury, London, began some similar conferences at her home in Powerscourt, Ireland.

Both these conferences were held annually for a few years,Some of those attending were George Mueller, B.W Newton Edward Irving and J N Darby. Meanwhile another group was forming under A N Groves, who, some 19th century writers considered to be the real founder of the Brethren. Be that as it may, The names, Cronin, Craik and Groves are among the earliest leaders mentioned. Craik and Groves became associated with Mueller.

 

[mkgal1]

The Plymouth Brethren were not founded by George Mueller. They began in Dublin in Ireland. Where several similar groups met

I was just going off a Wiki article.

From what I know about the different assemblies here....there are quite a few recent divisions. We have one assembly here where most people still wear the recognizable clothing (men don't wear zippers....women wear prayer caps)....and the other assembly wears typical street clothes and has a female pastor (maybe that's more of an "open" brethren? That's the Church of the Brethren).

This is the typical attire for the German brethren (here) that are still traditional:

 

[David Kent]

In Canterbury, about 9 miles from here, there is a shop run by the Taylorite Exclusive Brethren. It is called Timberite, When I went there a few years ago, they didn't accept credit cards "because they are the devil's work." They also don't allow mobile phones in their shop. You have guessed it "because they are the devil's work." Their women wear a distinctive head scarf.

In looked on an article about them in the Evangelical times and they said they were to followers of J N Darby and were known as Exlusives, and the first Brethren were in Plymouth and were known as the Plymouth Brethren or Open Brethren.

That is not accurate as Darby took over the Plymouth Brethren, ejecting the leaders including Benjamin Wills Newton who then moved to Bristol and Joined with Geeorge Mueller. I believe they became Baptists. (not sure)

I was in Contact with a Brethren lady a few miles from here (The wife of the Fred I mentioned earlier) when I was researching a local Baptist Church which then became Plymouth Brethren and seemed to pass into history about 1880. She said they had nothing to do with Plymouth Brethren as they were exclusive.

My wife was converted (from an atheist family) in and Open Brethren summer camp and at teaching College she was referred to as PB, or Peeb. (For Plymouth Brethren,)

 

[David Kent]

My understanding of the history of the Brethren is from The Origins of the Brethren by Harold Rowden

 

[mkgal1]

So...to your knowledge, are the Open Plymouth Brethren egalitarian? Or is it an individual assembly that decides that for themselves?

 

[David Kent]

Well, they certainly used not to be. They had no women preachers, or Elders or Deacons. They did not have pastors, just a committee of Elders.
I knew of one assembly in South London who did not allow women to pray at the Prayer meeting, eventually the women held their own prayer meeting in another room.
As I said, my knowledge is not up to date and I know it has changed considerably, some now have pastors and some now have loud music in the morning where in the past they had unaccompanied singing. Their hymnbooks were only ever words editions. The book we used was Hymns Of Light And Love, and I know others used The Believers Hymnbook.

Most of the Evangelical book publishers in London were Brethren, there were Scripture Union (Originally CSSM ) Marshall Bros, Morgan and Scott, Pickering and Inglis. Eventually some of these amalgamated, They became Marshall, Morgan and Scott and then Marshall Pickering. Scripture Union (SU) was taken over by Wesley Owen who eventually went into liquidation, I believe.

I believe that these publishers were the main reason for the rapid spread of dispensationalism through the UK in the 20th century whereas n the previous century, it was mainly confined to the Brethren and the Catholic Apostolic Church.

 

[mkgal1]

I had already forgotten that you said it was the Open brethren assembly you attended (and didn't look back at earlier posts).

I wonder if there's any connection at all to the Church of the Brethren we have in the U.S. (because the two seem to be very different).

 

[David Kent]

I had already forgotten that you said it was the Open brethren assembly you attended (and didn't look back at earlier posts).

I wonder if there's any connection at all to the Church of the Brethren we have in the U.S. (because the two seem to be very different).

I don't know if there is a connection but I don't think so.

 

[mkgal1]

According to Wiki (although I realize that's often not too credible of a source)....the CoB was founded by Alexander Mack and the Schwarzenau Brethren. They seem to be egalitarian.

 

[garee]

My home church where I heard the gospel and attended for nearly 25 years. Like others say some differences from one to another .They have a excellent format and especially the Lords supper or breaking of bread .Some call the believers meeting coming before the Bible study hour. during that meeting along with the breaking of bread a tithe is offered.
Woman can chose to wear a head or hair covering in respect to the new testament ceremonial law as a picture to the world. They are required to be silent their husband can represent them. as discussed at home.

Our differences has to do with how the words thousand years is interpreted .Where is see it as a parable they look at it as a literal. And divide how God works in what they call dispensations.

How parables as the signified tongue of God are used separates many sects. Not a salvation issue but more of how can we hear what the Holy Spirit says to the denominations or churches

 

[David Kent]

My home church where I heard the gospel and attended for nearly 25 years. Like others say some differences from one to another .They have a excellent format and especially the Lords supper or breaking of bread .Some call the believers meeting coming before the Bible study hour. during that meeting along with the breaking of bread a tithe is offered.
Woman can chose to wear a head or hair covering in respect to the new testament ceremonial law as a picture to the world. They are required to be silent their husband can represent them. as discussed at home.

Our differences has to do with how the words thousand years is interpreted .Where is see it as a parable they look at it as a literal. And divide how God works in what they call dispensations.

How parables as the signified tongue of God are used separates many sects. Not a salvation issue but more of how can we hear what the Holy Spirit says to the denominations or churches

Yes I was taught dispensationalism, ut further study taught me it is false teaching. The true prophetic understanding is The Historic, or Continuing Historic. Taught by the early church and continued throughout history. I just bought a book entitled 'History of Apocalyptic Interpretation ' originally an appendix in a book by E.B.Elliot published in 1862. You will find in it a complete list of the main authors on the subject from the earliest times to the then present. I got it on Amazon and it is printed to order.

 

[Paidiske]

Brethren in Australia might be very different again to Brethren in America, but here they're generally not egalitarian. The church my parents-in-law belong to has just about torn itself in two over the last year or so, over the issue of appointing women as elders. They did appoint two women elders and about half the congregation left.

 

[garee]

Yes I was taught dispensationalism, ut further study taught me it is false teaching. The true prophetic understanding is The Historic, or Continuing Historic. Taught by the early church and continued throughout history. I just bought a book entitled 'History of Apocalyptic Interpretation ' originally an appendix in a book by E.B.Elliot published in 1862. You will find in it a complete list of the main authors on the subject from the earliest times to the then present. I got it on Amazon and it is printed to order.

Hi thanks
Seeing we are warned of those who say we do need a man to teach us rather than the Holy Spirit .I would offer the true prophetic understanding is "all things written in the law and prophets" or called (sola scriptura)

 

[garee]

Brethren in Australia might be very different again to Brethren in America, but here they're generally not egalitarian. The church my parents-in-law belong to has just about torn itself in two over the last year or so, over the issue of appointing women as elders. They did appoint two women elders and about half the congregation left.

I would offer elders not married can be used in different ministries. Elders as pastors must be married. The ministry is of two or three, a familyas examples of the flock . Those who have been divorced are ruled out . They can as elders serve in other ministries

 

[Gregorikos]

I would offer elders not married can be used in different ministries. Elders as pastors must be married. The ministry is of two or three, a familyas examples of the flock .

In that view, neither Jesus nor Paul would be qualified to pastor a church.

"Sorry, Jesus, you're not what we're looking for. Thank you for applying." That is obviously incorrect.

 

[garee]

In that view, neither Jesus nor Paul would be qualified to pastor a church.

"Sorry, Jesus, you're not what we're looking for. Thank you for applying." That is obviously incorrect.

Yes the example to the flock as a sign to the unbelieving world is a family. Two or three make up a nation

Remember to call no man on earth good teaching master as lord one is our Father in heaven .We can plant the in corruptible seed by which men are born again from above and water it with the water of the word as the doctrines of God that do fall like rain. But as apostles sent with prophecy we are considered as nothing .He causes the growth or increase if any.

Jesus dared not to sit in the place as the one source of Christ's faith the unseen .

Mark 10:16-18 And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them. And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.