Physical affection in dating

[EtainSkirata]

I posted this in Requests for Christian advice but I wanted to also post in a relationship advice forum too.

I know the age old question of "how far is too far" isn't the question to be asking, but rather more like, "how can I honor God in this relationship?" And I tell you what, I am STRUGGLING. My boyfriend and I don't even kiss because it's too much of a temptation. Which is fine, but I get stuck on hugs. Sitting (NOT lying down) on the couch hugging, and then BAM, impure thoughts that I want to make out with him. Or even hugging in the kitchen! BAM, impure thoughts. I read somewhere that we're not supposed to intentionally cause ourselves to lust. How on EARTH am I supposed to show him SOME KIND of physical affection? What thoughts are part of normal desire, and what is lust? Even Dr. Dobson of Focus on the Family puts kissing BEFORE the marriage boundary. And my boyfriend and I don't even do that. I'm just sick and tired of constantly feeling guilty over a HUG.

I brought this up to my therapist, who herself is a Christian. And she said along the lines of maybe there's a space to recognize, "I'm having this feeling of being aroused, but I'm CHOOSING not to actually do anything about it" (as in, actually having sex or making out). Because arousal I don't think is a sin, it's a bodily function. Nor do I think attraction is a sin. And if we're supposed to avoid every situation that makes it easy to have bad thoughts, then according to my boyfriend I can't even be in the same room as him. (And also, maybe there's situations where we go to church or the store and see an attractive man or woman and have these thoughts, are we supposed to just stay home all the time since it causes bad thoughts?)

Lastly, growing up, my grandparents would give each other a quick kiss when they got home, and I would argue that it wasn't sexual. Or even in France, they kiss each other all the time. Maybe one or the other had a few fleeting thoughts when it happens, but is it possible to recognize the thoughts and have self control to not take it to the next level? If we're supposed to avoid the situations, then I can't even look at my boyfriend. So, I want to know if there's some level of affection that I can give him. And I also want to know how to stop over thinking it because it's DEFINITELY causing a strain on the relationship. I can't hug him or anything without being worried.

 

[levnishbar]

It is a very human tendency to add fences to God's commandments instead of precisely avoiding what He prohibits. For example, right in the Garden of Eden, God forbade Adam and Eve to eat (Genesis 2:17) of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil, but a fence was added by Eve to forbid eating and touching (Genesis 3:3)

Edit: I'll add another example of Kosher dietary laws in Judaism. God forbade boiling a calf in its mother's milk (Exodus 23:19). Orthodox Judaism now forbids even having chicken and dairy together, despite chickens being non-mammals and a completely different species to sources of milk (cows, goats). It is physically impossible to boil a chicken in its mother's milk. But because of the human tendency to do "legal inflation", fences were added.

What are impure thoughts?

Matthew 5:27-28 Jesus said anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has committed adultery in his heart.

Adultery implies a pre-existing relationship either on the man's side, or the subject of the lust's side. What if both the man looking and the woman are single, or the woman looking and the man is the subject? Is it adultery then?

When I looked at previous girlfriends, their beauty was only a facet of the attraction. I was drawn to their intelligence, character, strength, wisdom, values, etc. I think in this entire context, it is OK to be sexually attracted to her as well.

I believe the line is crossed when the viewer's sole interest in the subject is to obtain sexual gratification. This demeans the subject and doesn't value them as person. Likewise it enslaves the viewer to the desires of their flesh.

What exactly is forbidden in the Bible?

In the Bible, while virginity is considered something treasured, I haven't found a verse which explicitly forbids pre-marital sex.

In 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - sexual fornication is mentioned. But is it sexual fornication to engage in a monogamous relationship with a close partner prior to marriage?

The reality of things

I agree that the ideal probably is that young men and women meet and marry young as virgins, stay loyal to each other and grow old together. But the reality of today is that men and women are marrying older, sometimes into their 30s and 40s. Are we to accept that they are to remain celibate until they get married?

Some religious streams - I believe Orthodox Judaism and conservative Christians - also ban masturbation so the men would be burning with desire.

FWIW I have dated women and co-habited with them, and also made decisions to end relations based on what I saw during the co-habitation period. For example one was into spells and the occult, and I wouldn't have known it until we were living together and I saw her doing something bizarre one day and asked her about it.

Say you married someone who was into the occult. In my view this is a legitimate reason to end the marriage, but the Bible forbids any other reason for ending a marriage other than adultery. So what does one do then?

 

[dayhiker]

I love what levnisbar is saying.

I'd make it a little more clear. Lust in Mat.5:28 should be translated covid ask is quite often done other times it used. Because Jesus is talking about the 10 commandments and coveting another man's wife. Young people who are in love and dating each other clearly aren't coveting someone else. So this verse doesn't really apply even those it's preached to our kids in youth group and church camps. Pretty sad to see scripture so miss used.

 

[LittleSisterInChrist]

I won't split hairs on the pre-marital sex. I don't agree with the view that it isn't explicitly forbidden just because it doesn't say thou shall not have pre-marital sex... or some similar thing. Between the mentions of lust, coveting, sexual laws, sexual fornication, sexual immorality, prostitution, marriage, how husbands and wives are to treat one another, the two becoming one flesh, and keeping the marriage bed pure, I'm quite confident it is safe to say God wants us to be committed and loyal to one spouse "til death do us part" (what used to be and still is part of some marriage vows) and sex is intended for marriage, not outside of it.

As for impure thoughts and sexual attraction, I think levnishbar is pretty on point with it not being solely about sexual gratification and the devaluing or objectification of another person...but you can also ask your pastor, church elders, or fellow Christian of your own gender for advice.

The reality is that we're supposed to honor God in everything we do and honor each other as image-bearers of God. God made sex, He made it pleasurable and He made it for pro-creation. It has both physical and spiritual effects. All of that is true but seek God's way and will in going about it.

As a forgiven child of God through Jesus Christ, I can testify that sexual sin sucks and it is not something you want to live in. Don't make sex an idol. I am in my 30s and I haven't had sex in years since God brought me out of the lifestyle I was living in. I want to honor my Maker more than I want sex which means seeking His way to go about it rather than mine or someone else's way.

 

[splish- splash]

According to God's word, things like sexual intimacy, even if we are not going beyond touching and kissing, must bring out Christ and His bride. It will be much much easier, to set boundaries in a relationship, once we've established how & why it is important to only perform such acts within the confines of marriage.

If we are all in agreement, that each and everything that goes on in a marriage must preach Christ, then we will eventually come to the conclusion that, the act alone whereby a man deposits their seed into a woman during sexual intercourse, indeed symbolizes Christ depositing His seed into His bride.

It's quite deep this subject of sexual intimacy really, when it comes to our relationship with the Lord. This is when, it also becomes clearer that when even choosing our life partners, they would have to be God ordained as a marriage is, to be structured, in the order which the Lord has instructed, if it is going to be a fruitful one in Jesus.

Try and read through Song of Songs as well if you can.... But studying the whole bible ofcoz, will enable us to connect all the missing bits of the puzzle.

 

[Soyeong]

I posted this in Requests for Christian advice but I wanted to also post in a relationship advice forum too.

I know the age old question of "how far is too far" isn't the question to be asking, but rather more like, "how can I honor God in this relationship?" And I tell you what, I am STRUGGLING. My boyfriend and I don't even kiss because it's too much of a temptation. Which is fine, but I get stuck on hugs. Sitting (NOT lying down) on the couch hugging, and then BAM, impure thoughts that I want to make out with him. Or even hugging in the kitchen! BAM, impure thoughts. I read somewhere that we're not supposed to intentionally cause ourselves to lust. How on EARTH am I supposed to show him SOME KIND of physical affection? What thoughts are part of normal desire, and what is lust? Even Dr. Dobson of Focus on the Family puts kissing BEFORE the marriage boundary. And my boyfriend and I don't even do that. I'm just sick and tired of constantly feeling guilty over a HUG.

I brought this up to my therapist, who herself is a Christian. And she said along the lines of maybe there's a space to recognize, "I'm having this feeling of being aroused, but I'm CHOOSING not to actually do anything about it" (as in, actually having sex or making out). Because arousal I don't think is a sin, it's a bodily function. Nor do I think attraction is a sin. And if we're supposed to avoid every situation that makes it easy to have bad thoughts, then according to my boyfriend I can't even be in the same room as him. (And also, maybe there's situations where we go to church or the store and see an attractive man or woman and have these thoughts, are we supposed to just stay home all the time since it causes bad thoughts?)

Lastly, growing up, my grandparents would give each other a quick kiss when they got home, and I would argue that it wasn't sexual. Or even in France, they kiss each other all the time. Maybe one or the other had a few fleeting thoughts when it happens, but is it possible to recognize the thoughts and have self control to not take it to the next level? If we're supposed to avoid the situations, then I can't even look at my boyfriend. So, I want to know if there's some level of affection that I can give him. And I also want to know how to stop over thinking it because it's DEFINITELY causing a strain on the relationship. I can't hug him or anything without being worried.

My wife and I did not physically touch each other until after we got married, not even to shake each other's hand, so we decided to focus on determining whether the other was someone that we would want to spend our day-to-day lives without our judgement being clouded by romantic feelings, then develop the romantic aspect of our relationship after we got married. It made it a lot easier to get comfortable talking to each other. Sometimes people get married based on romantic feelings, but then find that they don't really know each other that well, and romantic feelings come and go, so it can be good to see whether you enjoy being in each other's presence when there is no romance and then to treat the romance as being icing on the cake. So if you're having problems with hugging him without being worried, then it might be better to hold off on showing physical affection until after you are married.